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On August 20 2010 04:53 Bibdy wrote:This is just hilarious http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/59823-1v1-terran-protoss-steppes-of-warAbsolutely...godamned hilarious. You need to outmacro the ball to stand a chance and they just sneak a couple of medivacs in one side, and send the rest of the blob in the other. Absolutely no way to cover both sides. Can they make Marauders cost 50 gas a piece, yet?
what ur describing actually is one of my biggest problems vs terran..
u need to pull too many units from the front to stop the drop, because the freaking medivac[s] heal their units so efficiently
and then if u do that u get destroyed in front
if you don't, you don't stop the drop well enough
it's kind of ridiculously hard to stop
(i didn't watch your replay im just talking about this tactic in general)
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On August 20 2010 05:47 travis wrote:what ur describing actually is one of my biggest problems vs terran.. u need to pull too many units from the front to stop the drop, because the freaking medivac[s] heal their units so efficiently and then if u do that u get destroyed in front if you don't, you don't stop the drop well enough it's kind of ridiculously hard to stop (i didn't watch your replay im just talking about this tactic in general)
Exactly. And it just happened again. That race is soooooooo getting smashed with the nerfbat soon. Its hilarious.
Be alright if we had overlords giving us some advance warning, but nope. Complete ignorance of anything happening outside our base and Observers that can't keep up with 2.5 speed Medivacs. Sorry but either Marauders cost too little, allowing Terrans to tech too easily, while still maintaining a strong ground force, or Medivacs are just too damn fast.
On August 20 2010 05:37 iamke55 wrote:
You made 2 very unnecessary assimilators, delaying your nexus by 150 minerals. Why would you steal their gas with a build like this? That invites terran to get an earlier expo or mass marine/marauder pressure from them, when what you want them to do is waste minerals/gas on tech buildings that won't hurt you until mid-game.
You actually mined gas from your 2nd gas, delaying your nexus by even more minerals.
You had 300 minerals at 6:24, but did not make 2 more gates until 6:58.
You didn't make your robo for a long time after the 2 gates, despite hitting 200 minerals/100 gas very quickly. In fact, during this time you had around 700 minerals which could've started more gates as well. This robo sat around idle for 22 seconds before making an observer. Given everything else mentioned before, your observer at this point could easily be 2-3 minutes later than that of someone who executed the build properly. Then all you'd have to do is follow the medivacs with your obs and see any drops. Also, you forgot to research charge. All in all, I think you need to understand that when you drop 400 minerals on something that doesn't attack, you absolutely cannot afford to delay important buildings and tech that will help you hold off the mid-game push.
Yes, let's keep assuming all Terrans are playing perfect themselves.
I've love to know how you keep track of a Terran's medivacs with an Observer moving at 1.875 speed, compared to a Medivac's 2.5. Especially when they can just Scan the area, kill the Observer and head out undetected. I truly would.
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I would think that going double expand after getting robo up and some colo of 1 base is a lot more stable.
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i did this FE against my diamond terran friend last night in our little friendly tournament we do. He was doing one of those cute factory fly ins to draw me away from my front (in this case my front was my expansion)... it worked and I had to go to the factory and he smashed my expo, but even then I already had my gateways down so I was able to put together a force to crush his push and then move out to contain and won soon after. I think the big takeaway from this build is actually to show you just how much mileage you can get out of one constantly chrono'd gateway. I was able to get plenty of units out to defend a push if I never tried to expand and instead just one-base tech'd to something. It kind of changed my perspective on things a little bit. Im not sure if I could have stopped the push the moment he got there, but he wasnt gonna be killing my main, thats for sure. Im thinking about just adapting it into a one base tech off one gateway a little bit longer and then pushing out with my tech. The problem with that is the same problem all toss have though, when holed up in your base you have the least map control of any race by far. You feel like a sitting duck... I dont see how thats any different in one base play other than that its easier to forcefield a ramp to hold them off, when they can just go for your expansion. I honestly think once im slightly better than a 50 food push would be no problem absent a simultaneous drop or fly in. When they do those things though its at the cost of some of their front door army.
Its really important to get good forcefields off and have the zealots hand to abuse the forcefields. It took me a while to realize how strong zealots actually are against terran, but im glad I did. Once I stopped doing mass stalkers my ground vs ground success against terran has gone up significantly evne though I do think they have an advantage still.
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I agree ^
My first tech building is usually the citadel for charge asap. The only exception is if I was able to take my expo with 0 pressure from T, meaning I need to know what he is doing in this base with an Ob first. But charelots are surprisingly effective against marine/tank and marine/marauder, the 2 most common unit compositions. The only problem is when they mass banshees with cloak as part of their army, and add ravens for PDD and observer sniping. That makes engaging the T army very difficult. Nonetheless, the fast expo helps a TON.
A note to toss players (and I guess terran players too), you are vulnerable to drops when doing this build, since you have more area to cover. Try kill off the drop with purely warp in units and stay fortified in your expo's front or else the main push may take our your expo while you a-move your entire army to kill 8 marines.
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My biggest issue with Terrans is actually Vikings. They basically invalidate Colossus and aren't really too bad as ground support. The biggest issue is that there really isn't a clean counter to them, as air is very expensive (and not really viable to go just for the purpose of countering a unit) and to get the amount of Stalkers you need to scare them off that tech your ground army will be far too weak to a late game Terrain ground force. They pretty much get free reign for harassment gaining map control and give vision for Tanks and Ghost so they'll have the initiative in Templar/Ghost duels (which essential wins it for them).
Medivac can at least be Feedback'ed.
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On August 20 2010 10:11 whateversclever wrote:
My biggest issue with Terrans is actually Vikings. They basically invalidate Colossus and aren't really too bad as ground support. The biggest issue is that there really isn't a clean counter to them, as air is very expensive (and not really viable to go just for the purpose of countering a unit) and to get the amount of Stalkers you need to scare them off that tech your ground army will be far too weak to a late game Terrain ground force. They pretty much get free reign for harassment gaining map control and give vision for Tanks and Ghost so they'll have the initiative in Templar/Ghost duels (which essential wins it for them).
Medivac can at least be Feedback'ed.
You'll have to transition away from colossus once vikings show up in number unless you have a big enough stalker army to protect your colossus, and probably even blink. Generally pushing into storm is all you want to do. Vikings get ripped up by gateway units for the most part, they contribute very little to team fights. A small handful of stalkers can shut down some kind of viking harass on your mineral line.
For those having trouble against drops I found you want to do as much as possible to contain the terran while you work off your economy. Holding your expo will have to vary game to game but generally if I make an immortal or have two ready doing immortal drops is a great way to keep the terran around his base. If he was pumping only marauders for too long the drop can be really devastating without enough marines to keep your prism from picking up and redropping. Against a more immobile mech build you can also wreck buildings or scv's and be out quite quickly. As you move to colossus getting the warp prism upgrade and dropping in DT's or stalkers on high ground or storm drops are all great ways to keep yourself from getting dropped on as much.
Positioning your army in a defensive enough way to shut down his drops while making your own will guarantee that he cannot hit your front without you being able to react faster than he can. All the while you can macro and work off your 2 bases. If he tries to expand after seeing your expansion your drop has more room to damage and he has to invest more into defense. Forcing him onto his backfoot while that fast expo gives you a stronger and stronger ground force is a great way to power through a mid game that almost is always in terran favor.
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Stalkers are 125/50
160 Life (80 HP/80 Shield)
1 Armor
10 (+4 Armored) damage
1.44 Cooldown
Vikings are 150/75
125 Life (125 HP)
0 Armor
12 (grounded) Damage
1.00 (grounded) Cooldown
Vikings really aren't that bad grounded compared to Stalkers. They do cost more, but not really that much especially considering just how dirt cheap Marines and Marauders are for their effectiveness. Vikings out DPS Stalkers against ALL units whether armored or not, airborne or not. Stalkers do have more life, a free point of armor, and shields though. Early in the game that's important, but late game it's pretty much irrelevant.
So, yeah. It's not like a Corruptor than only has it's one (or two I guess) uses. There really isn't too much of a drawback to building Vikings. I'm not saying it's game-breaking, but in my opinion they are far too strong. It's a marginal-cost in terms of army composition, but it essentially invalidates an absurd amount of options, namely late air (if you see some hit the field, it'd be kinda asking for it if you built air units) and Colossi. Not to mention with Reactors you can build them absurdly fast.
It's clearly outside of the scope of the thread, so I apologize for that, but to me it's the most absurd Terran unit.
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This build is trying to do too much imo. I've been trying it some more, and I've defended it (although not a lot of players aggressively attacked me.)
It seems when they go FE I'm behind. but they can also do some drop play with stimpack to kill stuff in my base, and I would have to spread too thin in order to defend it. The Robo isn't so late, but by the time the obs gets into their base he can already be executing his choice of a gimmicky break.
You can't afford to be aggressive with your early units, hell you can barely afford to pressure early with your first stalker. You end up having to cut probes often, your scouting is poor, you don't have charge for your zealots anywhere near in time to be able to apply any real pressure (you need charge by the time his bio blob gets medivacs, otherwise they can stim-kite you forever,) baaaah.
I don't like it at all, it seems like even if they don't expand and don't break my nat they can still be ahead (not economically obviously.)
and if they expand, my window to get charge/storm/immortal to counter their tank/marine/medivac push becomes considerably smaller than in a 1 base scenario (imo,) where I could at least dedicate a lot of early chronoboosts to rapidly increase my probe count to make a delayed expo very rewarding due to a large probe transfer.
I still have only played very few games with this, and I've won a couple, but I'm not too impressed. How are you guys able to transition out of this without having the terran expand/tech wherever the hell they want?
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On August 20 2010 13:52 Kiarip wrote:
This build is trying to do too much imo. I've been trying it some more, and I've defended it (although not a lot of players aggressively attacked me.)
It seems when they go FE I'm behind. but they can also do some drop play with stimpack to kill stuff in my base, and I would have to spread too thin in order to defend it. The Robo isn't so late, but by the time the obs gets into their base he can already be executing his choice of a gimmicky break.
You can't afford to be aggressive with your early units, hell you can barely afford to pressure early with your first stalker. You end up having to cut probes often, your scouting is poor, you don't have charge for your zealots anywhere near in time to be able to apply any real pressure (you need charge by the time his bio blob gets medivacs, otherwise they can stim-kite you forever,) baaaah.
I don't like it at all, it seems like even if they don't expand and don't break my nat they can still be ahead (not economically obviously.)
and if they expand, my window to get charge/storm/immortal to counter their tank/marine/medivac push becomes considerably smaller than in a 1 base scenario (imo,) where I could at least dedicate a lot of early chronoboosts to rapidly increase my probe count to make a delayed expo very rewarding due to a large probe transfer.
I still have only played very few games with this, and I've won a couple, but I'm not too impressed. How are you guys able to transition out of this without having the terran expand/tech wherever the hell they want?
You don't. The point of this build is primarily to get your expo up before Ts if they decide to expo, and while they can tech whatever they want you can tech whatever you want too. The idea is not to be aggressive, but to be defensive and get templar or carriers or some sort of high gas tech out.
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yeah but that takes a really long time because you stay on 1 gas for so long
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Well if they tech off 1base, it's completely fine to stop probe production on ~40-45probes and get a bunch of units, until they do expand - since you're ahead in economy anyway. If they look for high tech off 1 base, you should be able to scout it with obs and start charge before adding a bunch of gateways(after normal 3).
If they open with a fast expansion themselves, you're completely fine - first of all, if it's a fast enough expansion not to get too behind against your early nexus, becase you chronoed units, they need a bunker. That's because until the regular 3-4 warp timing you actually have MORE units than usual - you are chronoing your gate, and in regular game unless you went for double stalker you're on one gate anyway, even if you don't FE.
If you see a bunker, you don't need to keep chronoing units off your single gate. Moreover, you can go 1gate/warp research -> 2nd gas and robo -> twilight - > 3gate, and never cutting probes. Then your obs will see their tech early enough that you can comfortably choose between chrono/blink/whatever, as well as make a decision if you can get a 3rd nex while on 3 gate, or if you need to take gas on nat and tech HT before getting it.
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On August 20 2010 13:52 Kiarip wrote:
This build is trying to do too much imo. I've been trying it some more, and I've defended it (although not a lot of players aggressively attacked me.)
It seems when they go FE I'm behind. but they can also do some drop play with stimpack to kill stuff in my base, and I would have to spread too thin in order to defend it. The Robo isn't so late, but by the time the obs gets into their base he can already be executing his choice of a gimmicky break.
You can't afford to be aggressive with your early units, hell you can barely afford to pressure early with your first stalker. You end up having to cut probes often, your scouting is poor, you don't have charge for your zealots anywhere near in time to be able to apply any real pressure (you need charge by the time his bio blob gets medivacs, otherwise they can stim-kite you forever,) baaaah.
I don't like it at all, it seems like even if they don't expand and don't break my nat they can still be ahead (not economically obviously.)
and if they expand, my window to get charge/storm/immortal to counter their tank/marine/medivac push becomes considerably smaller than in a 1 base scenario (imo,) where I could at least dedicate a lot of early chronoboosts to rapidly increase my probe count to make a delayed expo very rewarding due to a large probe transfer.
I still have only played very few games with this, and I've won a couple, but I'm not too impressed. How are you guys able to transition out of this without having the terran expand/tech wherever the hell they want?
I agree with this post. In most cases you concede map control, which isn't a great thing in tvp. One might say it's the only thing, as positioning completely determines everything since big fights are decided in 3 seconds or less.
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On August 20 2010 15:56 willeesmalls wrote:
I agree with this post. In most cases you concede map control, which isn't a great thing in tvp. One might say it's the only thing, as positioning completely determines everything since big fights are decided in 3 seconds or less.
I disagree. It does not concede map control at all, the economy kicks in fast enough and the observer is also fast enough to see their tech and react. If does not concede mid game map control, at least - and if it's early game map control, then it wasn't much useful anyway. Terrans can early expand with some adjustments, no matter what you do.
If they expanded, you have more map control this way than if you opened one base tech, since you're in no horry to put immediate pressure, and you can afford 3rd nexus while teching - or throw a bunch of gates to stop them if they push asap. If you, however, open 1base vs FE from terran, you'll have a bit of an easier time vs helion harrass/etc, but you'll have much less options against their push.
If they stay one base, they can have map control - you're ahead in economy and can defend until your tech gets there. After you have charge/blink and feedback, you regain map control and they're in trouble.
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I think you have to always have the mentality of being defensively oriented at first whenever you fast expand.
This does not mean concede the map immediately- in small numbers many Terran units are weak and unsupported units of certain types are not effective. For example, given Stalker speed, as long as you are attentive enough, there should be little reason to leave them camped at your natural as opposed to in front of the Terran natural or a Xel'naga watch tower along the way. Using fast units and the openness of the map is part of manipulating push distances to defend.
However, back to the point, a FE really is defensive in nature. That's only practical. Frustratingly for some, an expand doesn't ensure a win, but rather can just evolve the match-up into a more macro oriented style while not dieing. This can be discouraging because it seems like there is so much work and investment in just getting to a point where you may not even be guaranteed a win! However, it is pretty clear that Protoss one base aggression is getting pretty exhausted. There's only so much you can achieve when you simply lay in hard with the heavy-handed benefit of warpgate or choose a tech and hope that they won't have something to detect that DT or have the units to respond in time to that charged Void Ray.
I recommend focusing on a simple start after you survive the process of expanding and the defensive portion of your game, such as 6 warpgate 2 robo and just flooding as much Immortal, Zealot, and Stalker a few Sentry with however many observers you need out there and just trying to smash through Terran with crazy macro power and see where it gets you.
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On August 20 2010 11:51 whateversclever wrote:
Stalkers are 125/50
160 Life (80 HP/80 Shield)
1 Armor
10 (+4 Armored) damage
1.44 Cooldown
Vikings are 150/75
125 Life (125 HP)
0 Armor
12 (grounded) Damage
1.00 (grounded) Cooldown
Vikings really aren't that bad grounded compared to Stalkers. They do cost more, but not really that much especially considering just how dirt cheap Marines and Marauders are for their effectiveness. Vikings out DPS Stalkers against ALL units whether armored or not, airborne or not. Stalkers do have more life, a free point of armor, and shields though. Early in the game that's important, but late game it's pretty much irrelevant.
So, yeah. It's not like a Corruptor than only has it's one (or two I guess) uses. There really isn't too much of a drawback to building Vikings. I'm not saying it's game-breaking, but in my opinion they are far too strong. It's a marginal-cost in terms of army composition, but it essentially invalidates an absurd amount of options, namely late air (if you see some hit the field, it'd be kinda asking for it if you built air units) and Colossi. Not to mention with Reactors you can build them absurdly fast.
It's clearly outside of the scope of the thread, so I apologize for that, but to me it's the most absurd Terran unit.
You must be high. The drawback of building vikings is that they get absolutely destroyed by everything in assault form, which is meant to be a last resort ability. Compare 1 viking to 3 marauders (same gas cost). Now tell me what a Terran can expect to happen if he overcommits on vikings and you don't make anything they can shoot. Faking / making just a few void rays is a very effective strat to force viking overproduction, then just push in with chargelots / some ground army.
Yes, I'm aware that vikings can harass mineral lines to some effect. Considering that stalkers tear them a new one both on the air and on the ground, and are less expensive, you should have no problem just warping a few in and pulling probes for a few seconds.
Also, I'm aware that vikings invalidate half of Toss T3 tech. A nice mass of stalkers can make up for this somewhat, but HTs are simply the best way to go anyway.
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Here are some replays of using this type of strategy.
http://www.mediafire.com/?t341vc8ytu2xxsq
I vsed a 3 rax, some double port banshee rush, and a rax with medivac support. I don't have a solid or fine-tuned build order as of yet, although this seems to be working wondrously. I believe I get my expo up and running at about 8 minutes in the replay vs the medivac support.
Unless the Terran I played were just absolutely sucky, I'd say the Terran needs to expand themselves to match the P unit count. If they don't, they'll be overwhelmed by the P two base income.
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I'm ranked Platinum currently, top of my division, and I believe about to be Diamond? I dunno how the league advancing works.. Meh.
Anyways, I've been using my own variant of this strategy and I haven't lost a single PvT since.
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On August 11 2010 00:48 ChickenLips wrote:
Good terrans upon seeing a FE will either 3rax bust you or FE themselves thus nullifying the advantage of this build. Also drop play with some sufficient amount of micro will rape any FF play.
Not to put you down or anything, but I think Toss have a super hard time FEing against Terran or Toss (and thats why we almost never see it in professional play)
The 3 rax bust requires them seeing the FE at the right time and if they respond with an FE you now have a base that you can attack as opposed to going 1base to 1base.
Ultimately this does seem like a risky strategy though. It relies on your opponent playing defensively.
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EPT
