EPT[G] kcdc's PvT FE - Page 2
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
Not to put you down or anything, but I think Toss have a super hard time FEing against Terran or Toss (and thats why we almost never see it in professional play) | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
Edit: he can even do that marine tank scv push and kill you there. | ||
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Clerseri
Australia150 Posts
Do you focus heavily on denying scouting? Do you consider cannons? Have you come up against a banshee rush? | ||
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
Also you didn't say what maps this would be ideal on. I'm assuming Steppes is out of the question ;p. Thanks for the post btw been trying to figure out how to FE as Protoss for awhile. Once I realize I could FE against zerg I felt like the matchup just got so much easier :D. | ||
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chair
United States58 Posts
That's so essential in this matchup. | ||
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Maggeus
France277 Posts
Usually, the nexus arrives just when the push comes on a map like Blistering Sands. I don't recommend using an FE anyway, when you can be backdoored and stomped like an ant by their stimpack. I much prefer a defensive game with FF / High ground against a mass early bioball. | ||
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Kinmaul
United States104 Posts
On August 11 2010 01:10 chair wrote: Wouldn't an early reaper just destroy a delayed core? That's so essential in this matchup. Super early reaper (6-8 rax) hurts the terran's eco as well, not to mention it is extremely micro intensive so unless the terran is good his own macro will suffer a bit. If your micro is solid you can keep the reaper on the move with a zealot + a few probes until your stalker comes out. Even if the terran gets 3-4 probe kills you still come out even. Only time early reaper does a significant amount of eco damage to toss is if he gets a silly amount of probe kills or you are dumb and pull all your probes off mining to chase him. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:48 ChickenLips wrote: Good terrans upon seeing a FE will either 3rax bust you or FE themselves thus nullifying the advantage of this build. that wouldn't nullify the advantage of this build at all. the toss would still have a FE up first and be significantly ahead. that said I suspect this build is very dangerous and will die to a strong timing push from terran. just my suspicions, though. | ||
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storm44
1293 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:48 ChickenLips wrote: Good terrans upon seeing a FE will either 3rax bust you or FE themselves thus nullifying the advantage of this build. Also drop play with some sufficient amount of micro will rape any FF play. Not to put you down or anything, but I think Toss have a super hard time FEing against Terran or Toss (and thats why we almost never see it in professional play) With current 1 Base Builds Protoss (most likely) has to wait for Charge/Blink/Colossi/Templar or the Terran to expand first before he can put down is 2nd Nexus. So if kcdc's kind of build enables to expand before your opponent and force him to either try a bust or expand himself to _not fall behind_ this would be a step forward in the evolution of that matchup instead of "nullifying the advantage if he expands aswell". Edit: Travis > me :[ | ||
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CagedMind
United States506 Posts
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chair
United States58 Posts
How the hell does spending 400 on a nexus survive this? | ||
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
Alternatively the marine/ghost timing push would be lethal as well. and to be honest if i saw a toss plop a nexus down and i cant kill him because i was feeling passive id drop a cc immediately, but then again when im feeling passive i have a 1 rax FE anyways. I just dont see a terran sitting on his ass not doing much when theres so many options to harass. Just a quick run down of the maps: Steppes : short rush distance terran usually go for a more harass open LT: Cliff... tank siege... expansion in trouble Xel Naga: wide area to defend, although it doesnt seem too bad Delta Quadrant: Short rush distance again Kulas: terran would drop a FE instantly and itd be infinitely safer (since itd be the one on the high ground vs yours next to the cliff) Desert Oasis: short air distance i dunno any player decent player that doesnt try and abuse that xD - plenty of choices fast banshees, siege drops on the main ledge, helions running left right and centre. Blistering sands: ok toss can wall FE on this map anyways so i guess this would be a decent pick | ||
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whaTITdoz
United States92 Posts
On August 11 2010 00:07 Tump wrote: I like this kind of build. I haven't used it in awhile, kinda forgot about it. I'm gonna start practicing it again. Also, to stop Thors fast Templar with feedback or Void Rays can be quite nice (you need a small handful of voidray and you can stop Thors even with SCV repair) Also the guy who mentioned you want to get up to like 5 warpgates after expansion instead of early Roboing, you're probably right. That was TT1 using this build, and he'd get 5 warpgates before the Robo I believe. (Saw it at least once on his stream awhile back). I agree voidrays will stop this thor push easily, that is why you do the starport -> if you see stargates you start pumping vikings which will easily take out the voidrays, which leaves him with a much weaker group force allowing the thors + marines to stomp over everything. Marines focus down the immortal shields then thors eat them alive.... but alas. I just think this is weak to a 1/1/1 build which allows for more counter and can still push hard on the Protoss. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
A semi-fast expo like this is really worth looking into though as protoss especially benefits from expoing as they get double chrono boosts and get saturation effects very quickly on one base. In other words a expo pays off really quick for protoss as the effect of maynarding is really big. I prefer going either fast stargate or robo and THEN expoing though, you are a bit slower because of the costs for a extra building and refinery but you can also afford to put more into chronoboosting your nexus earlier. I feel that in time fairly fast expo's will become the norm for PvT though because I think terran can expand quite well in the matchup without any real risk if bunker+bio expansion strats are perfected. Counterexpoing against a terran expoing leaves you quite behind because you will be much later that I'd rather be the first to expand. As a side question though: why scout on 9? It unneccesarily delays the gateway and 13 gate is rather safe anyway if you know how to micro against reaper rushes. The money lost by scouting fast is pretty substantial and even though probe harassing his barracks is cool i'd rather get my own gateway earlier. P.S. I like this tactic to keep in mind when the terran does a gas-steal. Gas-steal can delay stargate and robo strats by quite a bit and this would be a safe 'counter' to a gas-steal i guess since their invested 75 minerals probably means they won't be rushing you hard soon. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On August 11 2010 01:31 chair wrote: Protoss have a hard enough time surviving a 2 marauder / 1 marine timing push with zealot + stalker or sentry. How the hell does spending 400 on a nexus survive this? Which protoss are you watching?? 2 zealot+1 stalker+warpgates about to finish>>>2 marauder/1 marine. Zealots tank marauder shots like champions. I really don't think it's possible to FE this way against every terran opening, but with the pylon scout you can definitely know whether or not you can get away with it. If you watch White-Ra's replays you'll see him expanding very often off 1-2 gates, and it's because of his good game sense, scouting, and often his ability to harass well, preventing the terran from committing to an attack. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On August 11 2010 04:09 Markwerf wrote: The potential problem I see with this is that you are quite behind on tech. I wouldn't be so afraid for a push right when the nexus is about to finish but rather about a minute after or so. At the earliest you would be getting the robo or stargate right after the nexus which would still need a minute to finish then. A semi-fast expo like this is really worth looking into though as protoss especially benefits from expoing as they get double chrono boosts and get saturation effects very quickly on one base. In other words a expo pays off really quick for protoss as the effect of maynarding is really big. I prefer going either fast stargate or robo and THEN expoing though, you are a bit slower because of the costs for a extra building and refinery but you can also afford to put more into chronoboosting your nexus earlier. I feel that in time fairly fast expo's will become the norm for PvT though because I think terran can expand quite well in the matchup without any real risk if bunker+bio expansion strats are perfected. Counterexpoing against a terran expoing leaves you quite behind because you will be much later that I'd rather be the first to expand. As a side question though: why scout on 9? It unneccesarily delays the gateway and 13 gate is rather safe anyway if you know how to micro against reaper rushes. The money lost by scouting fast is pretty substantial and even though probe harassing his barracks is cool i'd rather get my own gateway earlier. P.S. I like this tactic to keep in mind when the terran does a gas-steal. Gas-steal can delay stargate and robo strats by quite a bit and this would be a safe 'counter' to a gas-steal i guess since their invested 75 minerals probably means they won't be rushing you hard soon. Scouting on 9 is perfectly reasonable in any game, particularly on 4 player maps. Terran can double 9 rax and you would never know if you scout late. 14 gate doesn't lose any probe production if you scout on 9. Also add TT1 on battle.net and you can see he does similar builds to this. I see one game where he doesn't get his second gas until like 50 supply. Nexus around 32-33ish? He doesn't cut probes but makes Gateways everytime he can after that. Up to like 4-5ish before Robo? Anyways, the late 2nd gas makes sense, you don't need 2 geysers running to constantly produce Stalkers off one gateway. | ||
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chair
United States58 Posts
On August 11 2010 04:14 PJA wrote: Which protoss are you watching?? 2 zealot+1 stalker+warpgates about to finish>>>2 marauder/1 marine. Zealots tank marauder shots like champions. HuK, if you're so curious. Believe it was a QxC vs HuK game which made this popular | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Here are a couple tips: This opening DOES NOT force you to play passively. Your gateway, cybercore and warpgate research are not delayed at all. By using the production window while the cybercore is warping in to build a zealot (a lot of P players neglect this window to build a stalker as their first unit), and then chronoboosting a stalker, you have the strongest possible Protoss army at this timing assuming standard play. Unless T did some crazy cut-workers fast barracks opening (which you would have scouted), your army is stronger than anything T can have at this point. Unless you're concerned about reapers (scouting and map dependent), you should push forward. If he's rallying marauders your way, you'll kill them. If he's in his base, you'll scout his front and begin a stalker harrass. This does delay your tech somewhat compared to a 1-base tech play, but it does not reduce your unit count compared to a 3-gate opening. By delaying your 2nd gas, you compensate for a lot of the mineral sink of your nexus, and by starting warpgate research on time, producing a zealot, and constantly chronoboosting your gateway, you have substantially the same unit count that you would had you gone 3-gate into expansion. IMO, expansion into 3-gate is safer than 3-gate into expansion because you wind up with the resources to support additional gateways and tech structures much earlier. | ||
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