I'm sure by now everyone has heard of it's ninja debuff, causing it to last a mere 15 seconds. (game time, not sure of real time faster) I'm a (phase 2 beta gold, phase 1 platinum) protoss player, so perhaps I shouldn't be talking, but that sounds terrible. But, being a man of definite proof, I am not quick to jump to conclusions.
Doing some simple Theory Crafting, It is obviously way too good against Motherships, and MAYBE BC's with Yamato Cannon, to which I believe such mechanics seem almost broken. (Ultralisks are immune to mind control, yet MS isn't?) But considering that Motherships are rarely used, and if they ARE used, are probably a bad idea versus Zerg due to the strength of Hydra's and Corrupters (excluding Infestors, which make's the idea suicide), I'd like to consider it's use against other things.
The obvious Targets are Flagships, key protoss support units, and Tanks and the likes. (probably useless versus Zerg) Now, assuming you get a nice flack, and control them, comes the real and major issue: 15 seconds to use them. NP no longer counts a unit as no longer a threat, nor does it give a huge situational boost, like say, Vortex.
With all of these threats to using a spell, therein lies the problem: why use it if it is so situational? Fungal Growth is amazing versus lowtier units, and infested Terran are pretty strong in their own right. NP almost, but not really, guarantees you MAY be able to use a key enemy unit for a good 8-10 seconds before your infestor is target fired, the unit doesn't accidentally go out of range, or 15 seconds if your infestor is left alone.
I've said I am one of hard proof. So, before I complained here, I waited for some. and found it. Idra versus TLO. Idra used infestors in the exact situation where they would be useful: mass BC, and they timed out on him and recovered.
but again, I can persuaded of it's use if someone has contradicting evidence. My question is: Have you been able to use NP's effectively? and if so, what level are you, and may I see the replay.
The change was pretty bad, I can see the point of removing unlimited mind control but either make it long enough that it lasts a battle(30 or 45 seconds) or make it cheaper.
Yeah, I had hydras + infestor, enemy had zealots, couple of stalkers and 2 colossi. growth'd the lots but and NP'd the colossi as soon as i could - looked like i was gonna win, enemy got the colossi back and i got manhandled. growthing and it seem like the only intelligent uses of mana in nearly all situations now
IdrA should have been shooting the battle cruisers that he had NP on, he made a mistake. He chased off the other half of the BC and should have killed the ones he had NP on with his hydras but for some reason didn't attack them.
The ability is fine the way it is, compare it to the closest ability to it which is Graviton Beam and it comes out as the superior ability already. When there is a big key unit you use NP on it, otherwise you use FG and you use IT in some situations as well. There is no way Infestors need a buff.
On July 30 2010 07:47 EnderCN wrote: compare it to the closest ability to it which is Graviton Beam
Why?
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I think it was an unneccesary change - I can see taking off permanent because I did have a match where I sniped 2 passing colossi with NP and ran them back to the xel/naga tower where my infestors were on the high ground. I was able to harass their expansion with the colossi without risking the infestors for quite a while, then ended up killing off the colossi when I needed to move out.
15 seconds is too short though. Make it 30 and it will be fine. The problem now is for NP to be effective you need to tag units at the start of battle and protect the infestor. If you do both, the battle still generally lasts longer than the NP and you end up fighting hte unit anyway (or queueing up a second NP on it).
Phoenixes are not a dedicated spell caster unit. They are an air combat and harass unit that has the graviton beam ability as a bonus. The infestor's spells should be far more powerful than anything the phoenix has. The fact that neural parasite is even slightly comparable to a spell that belongs to an airborn attack unit is silly.
Of course its still possible to use Neural Parasite effectively. I think all Idra had to do in the above videos was run the captured BCs back over the rest of his forces after a few seconds and target fire them instead of using them to chase the other BCs. That play would be a lot less effective than a similar play from before the nerf, but it still would have been very strong.
However, just because it is theoretically possible to still make strong plays with it doesn't mean the nerf was a good idea. Neural Parasite used to be scary. It used to be neat. It was a versatile spell that already had a built in counter: kill the infestor to rescue your unit. You could use it to hold lone units captive until you could kill them with something else, or you could use captured units to help defend key points on the map. Since the nerf the only time I see infestors used is to tip the scales in really large battles by disabling key units for a few seconds. It's boring now.
Also consider this: Mind Control existed in Brood War with absolutely none of Neural Parasite's limitations. You could outright steal enemy units without leaving your dark archon stationary and vulnerable. You could move those mind controlled units anywhere you wanted without worrying about moving too far away from the dark archon and losing control. The dark archon could even be killed and you'd still retain control of all of the units it had captured over the game. Yet mind control was still considered a niche spell that was hard to use well in real games.
Sure mind control cost more energy, and the unit it was attached to was more expensive, but still. I find it hard to believe that Neural Parasite was causing enough of a balance issue to warrant nerfing it like this, especially since I've seen no evidence of it being overpowered at all. And even if it was, I would prefer Blizzard to address the issue in a way that didn't rob Infestors of so much of their flavor.
tl:dr Infestors were far more interesting before the nerf. If neural parasite really had to be nerfed, they should have done so in a way that didn't rob it of so much of its flavor.
First. The ultra is immune to NP cause its frenzied a infestor spell it got as standard. Its what makes it what it is compared to the other t3 units. BC has yamato, ultra has frenzy.
The replay you linked actually shows how extremely powerful NP is in these situations.
This is what happened'
First battle vs BCs, IdrA engages just at the brink of his creep next to a cliff. Meaning he doesn't kill anything. There was no reason to engage that near the cliff. He looses way more hydras then he should.
Second battle where TLO engages his mineral line and first time NP is used. First IdrA looses like 75% of his hydra force before there are any NPs. IdrA then NPs 5 BCs and manages to kill one none NPed BC that runs away. If you look closely there are like 3-4 NPed BCs that does nothing for like 5-8sec in game seconds, they waste half their NP time. They just sit there. What does IdrAs hydras do? They just sit there under the ramp... If IdrA would have just attacked the NPed BCs near his mineral line instead of gunning for the runners he would easily have brought down like 3-4 of them. If he had not lost all his hydras before the NPs I reckon he could have killed a few more but way less losses and that would have decided the whole game.
3rd battle. You can even hear day9 say it himself. "IdrA should target fire these BCs" but he doesnt. Again he try and go for the runners and instead of moving back with the 3rd NPed BC for its guaranteed doom he moves it away after the 4th BC thats isnt NPed. This 3rd BC he actually moves out of range of his hydras. The result is that he looses almost all his hydras (again) when NP wears of of all the NPed BCs without them barely taking damage for the full duration. If he had just moved the NPed BCs right on top of his hydras and focused them down he would easily have killed the 3 of them with ZERO hydra losses without a problem.
But I agree NP was way more fun before. And I rather have weaker infestors with longer NP then how it is now. Infestors should need to be countered somehow. Like with grav beam or ghosts EMP should disable it (or they can snipe). having 15sec just makes it a gimmick that gives you a slight advantage in a fight. I would like to see that tech force some countermeasures on your opponent.
No it needs a buff , perma one nope but 12 sec is just way too short.
I had a short of rage post about this turtle to bc terran thing , is unbeatable atm vs a zerg player if plays correctly imo unless somehow zerg player outplays the terran one.
On July 30 2010 08:32 st3roids wrote: No it needs a buff , perma one nope but 12 sec is just way too short.
I had a short of rage post about this turtle to bc terran thing , is unbeatable atm vs a zerg player if plays correctly imo unless somehow zerg player outplays the terran one.
No make corrupters you nublet not hydras.
As I was gonna write in other post.
If you watch the TLO vs Idra replay and look past IdrAs poor choice of focusing you see that infestor is a very valid counter.
Corrupters are no risk factor in this situation. Its not like you make 50 corrupters at the start of the game and hope he goes BCs. It takes a terran a long long long time to get a BC fleet going. If he is so commited in it that infestors alone doesn't make you safe there should be no fear of a ground army you can't handle. All you have to do is to put down a spire (and maybe get air armor upgrade) during the absurdly long time he spends making BCs and when he moves out you just make appropriate amounts of corrupters and kill them off. (armor upgrade is important if you are about to face the BCs)
If some corrupters survive you can turn them into BL.
Nope, I can definitively tell you the use of the shortened MC. It's most definitely NOT overall useless, the uses are just a lot more refined now.
ZvZ it's nothing, pretty much. FG and Infested Terran are just waaaaay better spells in this matchup because of the prevalence of non armored units, plus FGing Roaches sort of nullifies them in larger fights.
ZvT and ZvP both have situational uses though. For ZvT, you have the choice of MCing Thors or Tanks, pretty much. Thors are the magic if they've researched 250mm cannons to deal with ultras (regardless of the lack of stun, it basically straight up kills 1 ultra, which is pretty amazing). You can just 250 mm something else and consider the MC well used, it's instantaneous, so even if you get your Infestor's shit wrecked, it still served a purpose.
MCing Tanks is a bit more elaborate. I'd keep the tank for maybe 1-2 volleys, then I'd unseige it and move it out of position. That way you can waste pretty much the tank's whole time during battle, and MC becomes a very strong pushing spell.
ZvT, it's great for MCing Collosi or HT, although for different reasons than shown. It's good vs Collosi not for the collosi's dps, but for it's position. Basically, mid game has the Protoss wanting to set up a killzone where the collosi return a shitload by murdering hydras crapped behind forcefields. If the collosi can hit the hydras, the Infestors can MC them, and rather than using their dps, move them to where the hydras can kill them, making the remainder of the army only so much hydra chow. It's also good for shaving collosi away when they've overcommitted to them (think 6-8). It's good against HTs because of lol-fungal-growth-and-storm-kills-so-much-crap.
The results in TLO vs. Idra are more because Hydras and Infestors aren't the most efficient way to dispatch of BCs. You can basically buy time by making them fuck off, but you need to transition to corrupters to deal with it once and for all. Granted Hydra/Infestor is more efficient than what IdrA was having them do. His problem was that he MCed them and basically did nothing. He used the BC's dps against eachother, which does fuck all tbh, since they shave half of it off. He'd have wanted to fly the BCs closer to eliminate them with the hydras, then there would have been a lot more return. Hydras take heavy casualties from BCs, but they can rape them pretty hard if given the chance.
Infestors are not useless, they got 2 great spells. Fungal growth is great against lower tier units and infested terrans make great for harassment. Neural parasite is however almost useless in it's current state. I don't know when it ever would be worth using.
Neural parasite: Cost 100 energy * Range 9 * 12 seconds stun * Enemy fires 2-3 shots on his own. * Channeled, prevent infestor from moving * Must be researched * An infestor with full energy can use NP 1 time.
Fungal growth: * Cost 75 energy * Range 9 * 8 seconds AOE stun * Enemies are able to shot while stunned * 36 damage to all enemy units * An infestor with full energy can use FG 2 times.
There are several fixes which each (on their own) would make NP usable again: 1) Lengthen the time to 30+ seconds. 2) Remove the channeling requirement. 3) Let it be cast while burrowed. 4) Lower the energy cost to ~50 energy.
removing the need for researching it I think I would be the most happy with. Then it can come into play sooner and help with annoying drops and rushes.
Yea so idra and the others are nublets as well , mr smartass u obviously dont play zerg cause you would know going ruptors is good only if u are 100% certain for opponets build cause they huge risk factor due to the minerals required ause u wont be able to have much ground amry to support vs a mmm push.
Regardless is a infestor thing thread and no Np doesnt cut it much vs big units anymore cause obviously none will np a smaller unit .
also infestors are nearly usless now cause they cant shoot like ghost once out of mana neither can tranform to archons.
Ofc this was due to have perma np a unit b4 but right now is sup bar vs ghosts and Ht's.
infestors are sweet. All i want is increased energy regeneration while burrowed. Having an expensive caster support unit that is only useful for 1 battle is retarded.
EPT
