I'm sure by now everyone has heard of it's ninja debuff, causing it to last a mere 15 seconds. (game time, not sure of real time faster) I'm a (phase 2 beta gold, phase 1 platinum) protoss player, so perhaps I shouldn't be talking, but that sounds terrible. But, being a man of definite proof, I am not quick to jump to conclusions.
Doing some simple Theory Crafting, It is obviously way too good against Motherships, and MAYBE BC's with Yamato Cannon, to which I believe such mechanics seem almost broken. (Ultralisks are immune to mind control, yet MS isn't?) But considering that Motherships are rarely used, and if they ARE used, are probably a bad idea versus Zerg due to the strength of Hydra's and Corrupters (excluding Infestors, which make's the idea suicide), I'd like to consider it's use against other things.
The obvious Targets are Flagships, key protoss support units, and Tanks and the likes. (probably useless versus Zerg) Now, assuming you get a nice flack, and control them, comes the real and major issue: 15 seconds to use them. NP no longer counts a unit as no longer a threat, nor does it give a huge situational boost, like say, Vortex.
With all of these threats to using a spell, therein lies the problem: why use it if it is so situational? Fungal Growth is amazing versus lowtier units, and infested Terran are pretty strong in their own right. NP almost, but not really, guarantees you MAY be able to use a key enemy unit for a good 8-10 seconds before your infestor is target fired, the unit doesn't accidentally go out of range, or 15 seconds if your infestor is left alone.
I've said I am one of hard proof. So, before I complained here, I waited for some. and found it. Idra versus TLO. Idra used infestors in the exact situation where they would be useful: mass BC, and they timed out on him and recovered.
but again, I can persuaded of it's use if someone has contradicting evidence. My question is: Have you been able to use NP's effectively? and if so, what level are you, and may I see the replay.
The change was pretty bad, I can see the point of removing unlimited mind control but either make it long enough that it lasts a battle(30 or 45 seconds) or make it cheaper.
Yeah, I had hydras + infestor, enemy had zealots, couple of stalkers and 2 colossi. growth'd the lots but and NP'd the colossi as soon as i could - looked like i was gonna win, enemy got the colossi back and i got manhandled. growthing and it seem like the only intelligent uses of mana in nearly all situations now
IdrA should have been shooting the battle cruisers that he had NP on, he made a mistake. He chased off the other half of the BC and should have killed the ones he had NP on with his hydras but for some reason didn't attack them.
The ability is fine the way it is, compare it to the closest ability to it which is Graviton Beam and it comes out as the superior ability already. When there is a big key unit you use NP on it, otherwise you use FG and you use IT in some situations as well. There is no way Infestors need a buff.
On July 30 2010 07:47 EnderCN wrote: compare it to the closest ability to it which is Graviton Beam
Why?
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I think it was an unneccesary change - I can see taking off permanent because I did have a match where I sniped 2 passing colossi with NP and ran them back to the xel/naga tower where my infestors were on the high ground. I was able to harass their expansion with the colossi without risking the infestors for quite a while, then ended up killing off the colossi when I needed to move out.
15 seconds is too short though. Make it 30 and it will be fine. The problem now is for NP to be effective you need to tag units at the start of battle and protect the infestor. If you do both, the battle still generally lasts longer than the NP and you end up fighting hte unit anyway (or queueing up a second NP on it).
Phoenixes are not a dedicated spell caster unit. They are an air combat and harass unit that has the graviton beam ability as a bonus. The infestor's spells should be far more powerful than anything the phoenix has. The fact that neural parasite is even slightly comparable to a spell that belongs to an airborn attack unit is silly.
Of course its still possible to use Neural Parasite effectively. I think all Idra had to do in the above videos was run the captured BCs back over the rest of his forces after a few seconds and target fire them instead of using them to chase the other BCs. That play would be a lot less effective than a similar play from before the nerf, but it still would have been very strong.
However, just because it is theoretically possible to still make strong plays with it doesn't mean the nerf was a good idea. Neural Parasite used to be scary. It used to be neat. It was a versatile spell that already had a built in counter: kill the infestor to rescue your unit. You could use it to hold lone units captive until you could kill them with something else, or you could use captured units to help defend key points on the map. Since the nerf the only time I see infestors used is to tip the scales in really large battles by disabling key units for a few seconds. It's boring now.
Also consider this: Mind Control existed in Brood War with absolutely none of Neural Parasite's limitations. You could outright steal enemy units without leaving your dark archon stationary and vulnerable. You could move those mind controlled units anywhere you wanted without worrying about moving too far away from the dark archon and losing control. The dark archon could even be killed and you'd still retain control of all of the units it had captured over the game. Yet mind control was still considered a niche spell that was hard to use well in real games.
Sure mind control cost more energy, and the unit it was attached to was more expensive, but still. I find it hard to believe that Neural Parasite was causing enough of a balance issue to warrant nerfing it like this, especially since I've seen no evidence of it being overpowered at all. And even if it was, I would prefer Blizzard to address the issue in a way that didn't rob Infestors of so much of their flavor.
tl:dr Infestors were far more interesting before the nerf. If neural parasite really had to be nerfed, they should have done so in a way that didn't rob it of so much of its flavor.
First. The ultra is immune to NP cause its frenzied a infestor spell it got as standard. Its what makes it what it is compared to the other t3 units. BC has yamato, ultra has frenzy.
The replay you linked actually shows how extremely powerful NP is in these situations.
This is what happened'
First battle vs BCs, IdrA engages just at the brink of his creep next to a cliff. Meaning he doesn't kill anything. There was no reason to engage that near the cliff. He looses way more hydras then he should.
Second battle where TLO engages his mineral line and first time NP is used. First IdrA looses like 75% of his hydra force before there are any NPs. IdrA then NPs 5 BCs and manages to kill one none NPed BC that runs away. If you look closely there are like 3-4 NPed BCs that does nothing for like 5-8sec in game seconds, they waste half their NP time. They just sit there. What does IdrAs hydras do? They just sit there under the ramp... If IdrA would have just attacked the NPed BCs near his mineral line instead of gunning for the runners he would easily have brought down like 3-4 of them. If he had not lost all his hydras before the NPs I reckon he could have killed a few more but way less losses and that would have decided the whole game.
3rd battle. You can even hear day9 say it himself. "IdrA should target fire these BCs" but he doesnt. Again he try and go for the runners and instead of moving back with the 3rd NPed BC for its guaranteed doom he moves it away after the 4th BC thats isnt NPed. This 3rd BC he actually moves out of range of his hydras. The result is that he looses almost all his hydras (again) when NP wears of of all the NPed BCs without them barely taking damage for the full duration. If he had just moved the NPed BCs right on top of his hydras and focused them down he would easily have killed the 3 of them with ZERO hydra losses without a problem.
But I agree NP was way more fun before. And I rather have weaker infestors with longer NP then how it is now. Infestors should need to be countered somehow. Like with grav beam or ghosts EMP should disable it (or they can snipe). having 15sec just makes it a gimmick that gives you a slight advantage in a fight. I would like to see that tech force some countermeasures on your opponent.
No it needs a buff , perma one nope but 12 sec is just way too short.
I had a short of rage post about this turtle to bc terran thing , is unbeatable atm vs a zerg player if plays correctly imo unless somehow zerg player outplays the terran one.
On July 30 2010 08:32 st3roids wrote: No it needs a buff , perma one nope but 12 sec is just way too short.
I had a short of rage post about this turtle to bc terran thing , is unbeatable atm vs a zerg player if plays correctly imo unless somehow zerg player outplays the terran one.
No make corrupters you nublet not hydras.
As I was gonna write in other post.
If you watch the TLO vs Idra replay and look past IdrAs poor choice of focusing you see that infestor is a very valid counter.
Corrupters are no risk factor in this situation. Its not like you make 50 corrupters at the start of the game and hope he goes BCs. It takes a terran a long long long time to get a BC fleet going. If he is so commited in it that infestors alone doesn't make you safe there should be no fear of a ground army you can't handle. All you have to do is to put down a spire (and maybe get air armor upgrade) during the absurdly long time he spends making BCs and when he moves out you just make appropriate amounts of corrupters and kill them off. (armor upgrade is important if you are about to face the BCs)
If some corrupters survive you can turn them into BL.
Nope, I can definitively tell you the use of the shortened MC. It's most definitely NOT overall useless, the uses are just a lot more refined now.
ZvZ it's nothing, pretty much. FG and Infested Terran are just waaaaay better spells in this matchup because of the prevalence of non armored units, plus FGing Roaches sort of nullifies them in larger fights.
ZvT and ZvP both have situational uses though. For ZvT, you have the choice of MCing Thors or Tanks, pretty much. Thors are the magic if they've researched 250mm cannons to deal with ultras (regardless of the lack of stun, it basically straight up kills 1 ultra, which is pretty amazing). You can just 250 mm something else and consider the MC well used, it's instantaneous, so even if you get your Infestor's shit wrecked, it still served a purpose.
MCing Tanks is a bit more elaborate. I'd keep the tank for maybe 1-2 volleys, then I'd unseige it and move it out of position. That way you can waste pretty much the tank's whole time during battle, and MC becomes a very strong pushing spell.
ZvT, it's great for MCing Collosi or HT, although for different reasons than shown. It's good vs Collosi not for the collosi's dps, but for it's position. Basically, mid game has the Protoss wanting to set up a killzone where the collosi return a shitload by murdering hydras crapped behind forcefields. If the collosi can hit the hydras, the Infestors can MC them, and rather than using their dps, move them to where the hydras can kill them, making the remainder of the army only so much hydra chow. It's also good for shaving collosi away when they've overcommitted to them (think 6-8). It's good against HTs because of lol-fungal-growth-and-storm-kills-so-much-crap.
The results in TLO vs. Idra are more because Hydras and Infestors aren't the most efficient way to dispatch of BCs. You can basically buy time by making them fuck off, but you need to transition to corrupters to deal with it once and for all. Granted Hydra/Infestor is more efficient than what IdrA was having them do. His problem was that he MCed them and basically did nothing. He used the BC's dps against eachother, which does fuck all tbh, since they shave half of it off. He'd have wanted to fly the BCs closer to eliminate them with the hydras, then there would have been a lot more return. Hydras take heavy casualties from BCs, but they can rape them pretty hard if given the chance.
Infestors are not useless, they got 2 great spells. Fungal growth is great against lower tier units and infested terrans make great for harassment. Neural parasite is however almost useless in it's current state. I don't know when it ever would be worth using.
Neural parasite: Cost 100 energy * Range 9 * 12 seconds stun * Enemy fires 2-3 shots on his own. * Channeled, prevent infestor from moving * Must be researched * An infestor with full energy can use NP 1 time.
Fungal growth: * Cost 75 energy * Range 9 * 8 seconds AOE stun * Enemies are able to shot while stunned * 36 damage to all enemy units * An infestor with full energy can use FG 2 times.
There are several fixes which each (on their own) would make NP usable again: 1) Lengthen the time to 30+ seconds. 2) Remove the channeling requirement. 3) Let it be cast while burrowed. 4) Lower the energy cost to ~50 energy.
removing the need for researching it I think I would be the most happy with. Then it can come into play sooner and help with annoying drops and rushes.
Yea so idra and the others are nublets as well , mr smartass u obviously dont play zerg cause you would know going ruptors is good only if u are 100% certain for opponets build cause they huge risk factor due to the minerals required ause u wont be able to have much ground amry to support vs a mmm push.
Regardless is a infestor thing thread and no Np doesnt cut it much vs big units anymore cause obviously none will np a smaller unit .
also infestors are nearly usless now cause they cant shoot like ghost once out of mana neither can tranform to archons.
Ofc this was due to have perma np a unit b4 but right now is sup bar vs ghosts and Ht's.
infestors are sweet. All i want is increased energy regeneration while burrowed. Having an expensive caster support unit that is only useful for 1 battle is retarded.
lets be real though, cost/time/risk involved in fast teching to cruisers compared to playing it safe as a zerg and mass macroing. TLO won the match and it wasnt because infestors need to be buffed. im a zerg player and infestors are quite fine. personally i think idra could have micro'd a bit better during the encounter.
I have run tests in the unit tester using armies of equal resources/food size with or without infestors, and using the energy of the infestors for different spells (vs the same well balanced Protoss and Terran armies). The results were that as long as the enemy army has usable composition for the spell, NP>FG>IT energy-wise (i.e. using 4 ITs instead of 1 NP is worse, when there's a massive unit like colossus). So NP is not useless, and infestors are not useless. NP is useful enough for people to want to research it. It's only a waste if the enemy doesn't have big strong units.
If you don't use NP, and instead only use FG and IT, you will lose some battles which you could have won with NP.
I've found uses for NP since phase two, but I still think the time limit nerf was unwarranted. I've never seen a game where Neural Parasite appeared overpowered, and I've never seen a complaint that it was OP by anyone above bronze level.
Even after costing 100 energy, requiring research to use, and being a channeled spell that completely disables the Infestor and leaves it vulnerable in the middle of battle, Blizzard still thought this ability needed a time limit? When Dark Archons could cast it as an instant, permanent, unlimited effect with relative impunity?
figq wrote: I have run tests in the unit tester using armies of equal resources/food size with or without infestors, and using the energy of the infestors for different spells (vs the same well balanced Protoss and Terran armies). The results were that as long as the enemy army has usable composition for the spell, NP>FG>IT energy-wise (i.e. using 4 ITs instead of 1 NP is worse, when there's a massive unit like colossus). So NP is not useless, and infestors are not useless. NP is useful enough for people to want to research it. It's only a waste if the enemy doesn't have big strong units.
When you ran the tests in the unit tester, did you try to focus fire the infestor? In real scenarios infestors will be focus fired on sight making hit and run FG and IT more attractive.
Dark Archon's mind control drained all of their shields, rendering them vulnerable just as the Infestor's does. Also, in most cases, DA's other abilities were not that useful. Perhaps most importantly, the DA cost much more to build and was higher up the tech tree.
Maelstrom was ridiculously useful, and Feedback was clearly good enough that they gave it to the High Templar in this game.
Also, even though MC drained Dark Archons shields, they could still move away/get picked up by shuttles after casting. I'll concede on your last point though, Infestors are obviously lower on the tech tree, but then again they need to research Neural Parasite (I don't remember whether or not DA Mind Control was a research... :/)
I think even Idra would admit at how poorly he used NP in that game. When fighting BCs that are abusing cliffs, you obviously want to NP a couple, then pull them towards your hydra so you can focus fire them down. The second battle where Idra's hydras were confused was obviously just a micro blunder by him, has nothing to do with Neural Parasite's value.
Neural Parasite is a fantastic spell under the right situations, even with the measly 15 sec duration it now has. That said, I've been reluctant to research it ever since the nerf.
The value of NP is not so much being able to use the controlled unit to make attacks, but being able to move it into a more vulnerable position so the rest of your army can kill it. It is still a great spell to cast on big expensive units.
Permanent Neural Parasite was ridiculously powerful, especially against Battle Cruisers in ZvT. To add insult to injury the BCs still continued to eat up the terran's supply!
On July 30 2010 07:47 EnderCN wrote: The ability is fine the way it is, compare it to the closest ability to it which is Graviton Beam and it comes out as the superior ability already.
What the hell does it have to do with Graviton beam??? An ability by the best anti air unit in the game that makes it also viable for getting key ground units vs a 15 secs long spell duration off a pure caster unit?
I really hope and think Blizzard will increase the duration on this. 30 secs is my guess . The way it is now doesnt really make it viable...
figq wrote: I have run tests in the unit tester using armies of equal resources/food size with or without infestors, and using the energy of the infestors for different spells (vs the same well balanced Protoss and Terran armies). The results were that as long as the enemy army has usable composition for the spell, NP>FG>IT energy-wise (i.e. using 4 ITs instead of 1 NP is worse, when there's a massive unit like colossus). So NP is not useless, and infestors are not useless. NP is useful enough for people to want to research it. It's only a waste if the enemy doesn't have big strong units.
When you ran the tests in the unit tester, did you try to focus fire the infestor? In real scenarios infestors will be focus fired on sight making hit and run FG and IT more attractive.
You are right, if the enemy is able to focus fire, then hit and run FG/ITs is better. The range of NP is quite long though - 9(+5 after cast). So if you use your main army to intimidate / block, you still have good odds vs most unit compositions. Alternately, there's burrowed casting.
Yea so idra and the others are nublets as well , mr smartass u obviously dont play zerg cause you would know going ruptors is good only if u are 100% certain for opponets build cause they huge risk factor due to the minerals required ause u wont be able to have much ground amry to support vs a mmm push.
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IdrA didn't know TLO had BCs in time to counter with corrupters cause his scouting was lacking. And yeah I would have microd better then IdrA in those battles where he lost all his hydra.
I played 400 games with Zerg at plat/diamond.
The point is you ARE 100% certain that terran goes BCs. What do you not understand about this? If you see 2-3 starports with techlab and reactor thing - all you need is a spire (thats only 200/200). It takes ages to build a BC force, you have all the time in the world to prepare with a spire if your scouting is half decent. Then you do not build corrupters until you see how many BCs he has got and moves out towards you. Make a perimeter around his base with OLs to know when. Then you just instantly make as many corrupters as you need and there is NO risk at all to over produce corrupters. BCs are slow so you will have your corrupters in time on almost all maps except maybe scrapyard. Or bad positions on LT, meta. I would hardly call 200/200 investment a risk when he has already wasted more on ports, labs, reactor. But I would also recommend when seeing him building up a BC force to get flyer armor and get a few corrupters to save energy for corruption as that really helps you out.
If he goes for the 20 BC army I'd recommend infestors in your mix as well as yamato can decimate your corrupter force.
Should it happen that you actually produce to many corrupters and have 1-5 left after killing off the BCs you can make them to BL.
After the reduction to 15 second NP I tried it in 3-4 games (diamond league p2 of the beta) and found it absolutely worthless. Since then I've yet to research it. Really 15 seconds doesn't seem like enough. At least two of the games the 15 second time was the difference between a win and a loss.
On July 30 2010 18:53 Truffy wrote: After the reduction to 15 second NP I tried it in 3-4 games (diamond league p2 of the beta) and found it absolutely worthless. Since then I've yet to research it. Really 15 seconds doesn't seem like enough. At least two of the games the 15 second time was the difference between a win and a loss.
Is 12 seconds is even worse fyi to all those saying is fine , is absolute crap
On July 30 2010 09:46 EvasivE wrote: lets be real though, cost/time/risk involved in fast teching to cruisers compared to playing it safe as a zerg and mass macroing. TLO won the match and it wasnt because infestors need to be buffed. im a zerg player and infestors are quite fine. personally i think idra could have micro'd a bit better during the encounter.
you obviously not playing zerg and not seeing the same game cause terran in that game was in safe mode turling wallin whereas zerg had full map control.
micro better ofl he litterally np almost all bcs and fyi for tlo doing better macroing that idra i mean srsly lol
what else will you think trying to justify a nerf that shouldnt even been there , np as it is not worth the resources neither the energy required .
and infestors atm vs ghosts and templars are a joke
Also what sucks about 15 sec NP is that you don't have enough time to NP an scv and start building a command center. You might still be able to build a nexus, because it's warped in, but you definitely can't start a terran base. It sucks
What the hell does it have to do with Graviton beam??? An ability by the best anti air unit in the game that makes it also viable for getting key ground units vs a 15 secs long spell duration off a pure caster unit?
Yes an ability that immobilizes the phoenix and another unit and stops the unit from attacking being compared to an ability that immobilizes the infestor and another unit but the unit attacks under the infestor control. What could I be thinking comparing the two....
Infestors could completely lose NP and still be a unit I would build almost every game. NP needs to be strong enough to make it worth researching and that is about it and I feel that it is strong enough now. It was certainly overpowered when it never broke. Maybe there is a happier medium between the two extremes and I'd agree with the one posters suggestion of better energy regen while burrowed for infestors.
Corruptors have a role, regardless if they could be better (or worse) at it.
Yea so idra and the others are nublets as well , mr smartass u obviously dont play zerg cause you would know going ruptors is good only if u are 100% certain for opponets build cause they huge risk factor due to the minerals required ause u wont be able to have much ground amry to support vs a mmm push.
I'm not sure what you're saying... you shouldn't go corruptors unless you scout? You could say that for any unit past Zerglings.
As a Zerg player, the last thing I'm afraid of while in Lair tech or above is a MMM push. Banelings, infestors (for FG), hydras... I'm pretty sure I'll come out on top if I haven't been asleep or AFK all game. Plus, for those 3 things, gas is the limiting resource (or maybe larvae for enough zerglings and banelings depending on how early we're talking, but then he doesn't have medivacs either), not minerals, so overspending on minerals probably won't affect my ability to repel MMM.
Regardless is a infestor thing thread and no Np doesnt cut it much vs big units anymore cause obviously none will np a smaller unit .
I agree that neural parasite is way less useful now. The only way I could imagine getting my research and energy's worth is on thors with cannons or BCs with yamato. Maybe on Ravens too, just to waste their energy/remove detection. It went from a reliable spell to something really situational, which is a shame.
also infestors are nearly usless now cause they cant shoot like ghost once out of mana neither can tranform to archons
I'm okay with this -- not every spellcaster needs an attack. High templar and ravens don't have an attack -- do you think they suck too?
Ofc this was due to have perma np a unit b4 but right now is sup bar vs ghosts and Ht's
I doubt neural parasite has anything to do with infestors having an attack or not.
On July 30 2010 09:46 EvasivE wrote: lets be real though, cost/time/risk involved in fast teching to cruisers compared to playing it safe as a zerg and mass macroing. TLO won the match and it wasnt because infestors need to be buffed. im a zerg player and infestors are quite fine. personally i think idra could have micro'd a bit better during the encounter.
you obviously not playing zerg and not seeing the same game cause terran in that game was in safe mode turling wallin whereas zerg had full map control.
micro better ofl he litterally np almost all bcs and fyi for tlo doing better macroing that idra i mean srsly lol
what else will you think trying to justify a nerf that shouldnt even been there , np as it is not worth the resources neither the energy required .
and infestors atm vs ghosts and templars are a joke
Here is a replay for you. Its not showing any good use of NP. But it shows how to deal with "turtling" T going BCs. However in this game T does in fact stay even with Z on bases almost whole game so turtling might not be the right word but the fact tat he is on more bases means he has way stronger eco then a 1-2 base terran would. vs a 1-2 base turtling terran doing it like dimaga did would tip it way way more in Zs favor.
I also think investing 150/150 in NP when dimaga did have a few infestors out could be of good use for him. NPing a few BCs in one of those battles and yamato his own units.
So post a replay where it doesn't work for you or stop your trolling
Replays of Neural Parasite use at all would be nice too. Seeing some where NP fails would help solidify my opinion, and seeing some where NP works would be awesome.
But the current theory-craft/troll conversation is exactly what I was trying to avoid. + Show Spoiler +
off topic, but here's a poem:
THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT
It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind.
The First approach'd the Elephant, And happening to fall Against his broad and sturdy side, At once began to bawl: "God bless me! but the Elephant Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk, Cried, -"Ho! what have we here So very round and smooth and sharp? To me 'tis mighty clear This wonder of an Elephant Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal, And happening to take The squirming trunk within his hands, Thus boldly up and spake: "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out his eager hand, And felt about the knee. "What most this wondrous beast is like Is mighty plain," quoth he, "'Tis clear enough the Elephant Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear, Said: "E'en the blindest man Can tell what this resembles most; Deny the fact who can, This marvel of an Elephant Is very like a fan!"
The Sixth no sooner had begun About the beast to grope, Then, seizing on the swinging tail That fell within his scope, "I see," quoth he, "the Elephant Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though each was partly in the right, And all were in the wrong!
MORAL.
So oft in theologic wars, The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen!
Anyway, I do agree, idra's infestor play was really awful. The thing is though, It seems like NP's effectiveness is largely based on unpredictable factors, such as: "I hope he doesn't focus fire my infestor" or, "I hope I can kill his army before NP wears off"
But despite my feeble protoss opinion, I still feel a NP replay pack would be AMAZING.
i played a game this morning where i got infestors. the tooltip currently says and it was my experience in this game that NP lasts until the infestor dies.
here is the replay.
i killed the collosus that i had NP just to get them out of the battle. i hate collosus.
fyi i am high plat atm but not a great player, the other guy is low diamond.
Yea so idra and the others are nublets as well , mr smartass u obviously dont play zerg cause you would know going ruptors is good only if u are 100% certain for opponets build cause they huge risk factor due to the minerals required ause u wont be able to have much ground amry to support vs a mmm push.
I'm not sure what you're saying... you shouldn't go corruptors unless you scout? You could say that for any unit past Zerglings.
As a Zerg player, the last thing I'm afraid of while in Lair tech or above is a MMM push. Banelings, infestors (for FG), hydras... I'm pretty sure I'll come out on top if I haven't been asleep or AFK all game. Plus, for those 3 things, gas is the limiting resource (or maybe larvae for enough zerglings and banelings depending on how early we're talking, but then he doesn't have medivacs either), not minerals, so overspending on minerals probably won't affect my ability to repel MMM.
Regardless is a infestor thing thread and no Np doesnt cut it much vs big units anymore cause obviously none will np a smaller unit .
I agree that neural parasite is way less useful now. The only way I could imagine getting my research and energy's worth is on thors with cannons or BCs with yamato. Maybe on Ravens too, just to waste their energy/remove detection. It went from a reliable spell to something really situational, which is a shame.
Ofc this was due to have perma np a unit b4 but right now is sup bar vs ghosts and Ht's
I doubt neural parasite has anything to do with infestors having an attack or not.
Raven is a detector with some additonal role.. so not really comparable. High templar got a role when it is out of energy: Transform into archon. Every protoss does it because energy takes years to come back. When Infestor is out of energy it is just wasting supply..
Give infestor energy back faster, then it would be a much cooler unit. Could use it to harass then run back to base and help defend. Now it is one or the other.
That's really a good idea adding consume on infestors. Nevertheless, the 15sec NP nerf is really annoying. But an ability like consume would at least assure that you can use more than just one or two spells per fight.
With Hydra/ling composition, your damage output is unbeleivable, and the only thing which stops it is collosi killing every one of your units in 1 or 2 hits. Some NP on collosi and all your zealots sentries immortals and whatever else are easily killed in well under 12 seconds, especially with support from your friendly neighborhood collosi.
However, HT are another story, albeit pretty similar. When the mighty templar start walking the walk, it's really just a quick draw, wild west style(zerg are the real space cowboys). If you can grab a few HTs and pull out some nice feedbacks, you don't have to worry about anything. However, this is alot more tricky since they can feedback you too, and they don't have to use another spell beforehand.
All NP awesomeness aside, infessted terrans also deal ridiculous damage and can help a LOT when going for a full frontal assault or trying to get past those pesky terran walls. Plus, they're your only ground to air unit other than the hydra. You can bring along an ovie and throw them up cliffs for neat harrassment.
Fungal is nice too, but it's more for trapping things and killing marines... I probably use it the least, but it's real handy when you need some quick detection.
All in all, infestor is one of the best casters right now, and definitely the most versatile, providing harass, stopping harass, killing air, providing lots of support damage, and even sniping key enemy units.
*edit* also burrow move ^^ I would post reps, but I\m on my laptop
Oh where are those good times when neural parasite didn't require upgrade, costed 50 mana and was had no time limit?
Yeah it was imba back then but I think it got a bit overnerfed. Anyway, I find neural parasite still pretty decent against thors when I play vs not-heavy-on-tanks terran armies. Those 15 seconds are crucial in the battle, usually battles dont take longer than those 15 secs anyway.
NP was fine as it was. So you took over a unit. Big deal. In a huge battle, the enemy can easily kill the infestor, or pull back away from the unit. What does that leave the Z player with? A collosus/BC/whatever in the middle of the map, anchored to a low health unit, unable to move any convenient distance.
If they're going to keep NP as a researched and high cost spell, then it needs to be reverted. If they want to leave it as a limited effect, then get rid of it's research cost, and let infestors just have it outright.
the duration thingy is ok'ish, but i'm with the crowd that would like to see the energy cost reduced.
alternatively - and since zerg don't have an energy-denying spell such as EMP or feedback - i'd love the infestor to get a new spell that drains energy from a unit (possibly including allied units) like... costing 25 energy itself and then receiving 1 energy for every 2 it "destroys".
On August 03 2010 05:43 Matiz_pl wrote: Oh where are those good times when neural parasite didn't require upgrade, costed 50 mana and was had no time limit?
Yeah it was imba back then but I think it got a bit overnerfed. Anyway, I find neural parasite still pretty decent against thors when I play vs not-heavy-on-tanks terran armies. Those 15 seconds are crucial in the battle, usually battles dont take longer than those 15 secs anyway.
Well it originally had a time limit. It got changed - it's energy cost went up and it became researchable, but they made it permanent.
Then they change it back to 15 seconds and leave the nerfs =\
On August 03 2010 05:43 Matiz_pl wrote: Oh where are those good times when neural parasite didn't require upgrade, costed 50 mana and was had no time limit?
Yeah it was imba back then but I think it got a bit overnerfed. Anyway, I find neural parasite still pretty decent against thors when I play vs not-heavy-on-tanks terran armies. Those 15 seconds are crucial in the battle, usually battles dont take longer than those 15 secs anyway.
Well it originally had a time limit. It got changed - it's energy cost went up and it became researchable, but they made it permanent.
Then they change it back to 15 seconds and leave the nerfs =\
was it really initially only 50 energy?? around when in the beta was this?
On July 31 2010 16:31 Adebisi wrote: I always kinda wondered why they didn't put consume on infestor ><.
Ooh nice idea. The Infestor should eat Zerglings for energy!
If they give it that, blizz will be further inclined to give it various nerfs, and since it has 3 spells already, they would have to remove another spell! I don't think I could part with any infester spells, they're all my best friends.
On August 03 2010 06:47 Ksyper wrote: I think blizzard are just trying stuff out, I'm pretty sure that the NP will be buffed soon, it's pretty useless right now.
they might still be tweaking the infestor, but I think they got the majority of their "trying stuff out" done during the beta. (insane roaches, massive range void rays, etc.etc.)
EPT
