|
There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell.
terran - terran
terran - zerg
terran - protoss
zerg - zerg
zerg - protoss
protoss - protoss
only 6 brah, it's k.
Are you really trying to argue that it's okay because that person "earned" the advantage? That's like saying I got a few achievements so now I can hide what race I am playing...
Players accomplishments should not equal advantages through anything other than their own skill.
|
Against random I just do the standard 10supply 12rax 15OC opening, but I make sure to scout early to just make sure there isn't any 6pool happening or 2-3gate allins. From there adapt and react =D
|
I open for a non wall-in techbuild but scout early enough to branch off it if I feel I need to. I open 10 depot, 11 refinery, 12 rax without building a depot at the ramp. By the time my rax is done I will already know what I am up against and can either start the factory right away when the rax finishes or I can go for more raxes and a bio build. If I go for a bio build at that point I will just dump the excess gas I got for that techbuild into some fast upgrades or early ghosts.
If I am against zerg I can also easily wall of still with production buildings.
If you have to pick build before knowing which race you are playing against though, then you are just scouting way too late.
|
On July 13 2010 04:45 Schamus wrote:
Wow, saying 1/1/1 for every random game is a bit limited. It's a good balanced build but thats like saying 1/1/1 is good against all races and all builds.
The key moments of a TvX is the beginning. Thus I said 10rax10ref because it gets a rax up quick for whatever early harass may be. Past that, it just depends who/what you're up against after you scout. Just scout early and put a little bit more effort into early D, then if he went for an expo, use your early D to be Early O =D
well it IS a good opening against all races .
there is no situation where opening with a fax is bad and by the time its finished you really really really should know what your opponents race is so you can still adapt and decide wether you want to add the starport or rather go for more rax, fast expo or whatever.
Are you really trying to argue that it's okay because that person "earned" the advantage? That's like saying I got a few achievements so now I can hide what race I am playing...
Players accomplishments should not equal advantages through anything other than their own skill.
the advantage is super minor. i rnd myself and actually enjoy playing vs random alot. it makes you think and adapt more. really crying about random having a "unfair" advantage isnt cool. it was fine in sc1,wc3 and evry game ever made. so why suddenly complain about it?
and yes, people give up overall playstrength to random cause no one is equally good at all races. so you should be able to deal with having to scout properly
|
On July 14 2010 00:32 jp_zer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 10:12 Darthturtle wrote:On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage. There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell. terran - terran terran - zerg terran - protoss zerg - zerg zerg - protoss protoss - protoss only 6 brah, it's k.
No, you are wrong, it is indeed 9:
TvT
TvZ
TvP
ZvZ
ZvT
ZvP
PvP
PvZ
PvT
Remember that TvP is a *different* match up than PvT. In one case, you are the terran player. In the other, you are protoss. Obviously, this requires learning different build orders.
EDIT: Also, I don't see why random shouldn't have a small advantage to make up for the monumental task of learning 9 match ups. I like the current system, whereby their race is unknown until scouted by the opponent.
|
On July 12 2010 18:39 Aken wrote:
Hello,
I'm actually a top 20 diamond terran player and I almost systematicly lose to any top random player. I noticed that, on some maps, even if you send your scv very soon, you just cannot see your opponent soon enough to make the build you need against his race.
This is kinda problematic when you have a very specific way of play against each race, so while you are still blind, you have to make a choice after the unavoidable standard supply/barrack/gaz.
So, what's next for you ? Barrack or Factory ? for which reason ?
it also bothers me that so many diamond players seem to be random players. i go with regular OC build and quick factory next to rax to complete all-in zealot/baneling proof wall and usually work from there into ghostmech vs immortal, banshee vs void/dt, MMM or 2fact vs z, rine/tank/viking vs t.
|
Diamond players are still bad players with good mechanics, or good players with bad mechanics... They aren't pro-caliber unless they already were pro-caliber.
It is true, that you don't want forward buildings in the TvT matchup, so either decide that the cost of walling off vs. Zerg is worth it or not, no sense in whining about something that will ALWAYS exist.
If you don't want to wall with your Depot, sure, then just throw down your Barracks at your ramp, if you still don't know. If only Barracks could somehow... "float" or "fly" to different locations in case you ended up not wanting it there, like in TvT.
|
Playing Random is so much more difficult than playing a chosen race that the compensation one gets from his opponent having to send a very early scout (eg: 7th) is not enough. + Show Spoiler +That's why usually one sees the ratio of players is about 10% R to 30% of each other race. I'm shocked to see people insisting the random players to announce race and removing the little (almost negligible) compensation they have for playing the most difficult race in the game. Even on the highest level of skill it takes special dedication to specific BO (with variations) to develop it enough at some moment of time that you can play very well with it. For a random player that means you are working on 3 such BO trees at the same time. This quantity plus the stats that say around 10% random players usually (I heard it in a recent Blizzard report too), both support the fact that Random as a race must be about 3 times more difficult to play with. And there is no Random player, not even TLO, to be able to match the quality of preparation of BOs of a specified race player. On average, in the top level ladder rankings that I've seen, random players get significantly lower rankings than the specific races.
If the early scout was that beneficial, as some people here complained, then one would see more Random players online, and winning tournaments, but that doesn't happen. That said, if the skill cap in SC2 is somewhat lower than BW (remains to be seen) it is more probable to expect more (at least some!) Random players in SC2 playing competitively in the pro-leagues. Something which to my knowledge didn't happen in the Korean leagues for BW. There are Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, but no top Random player to win titles and dominate ladders. Since Blizzard officially treats Random as a fourth race of its own merit, if they succeed to make it more viable for the pro-scene of SC2, that would be a step in the right direction for them. Finally, if someone firmly believes Random has too much advantage, I encourage them to play Random. If it's true, we must use that super advantage, so that it shows up in the stats, and Blizzard realizes and makes the proper adjustments. If it isn't true, please don't insist on random players' race being announced. I've seen Random players type in their race when the game begins, and to me this means they say: "Here, I give you handicap".
|
Ill say this in as few words as possible. Scouting is PARAMOUNT TO VICTORY. If your not scouting properly or soon enough given the situation. You will lose random or not. Just becuase you know the race or not isnt a big enough an advantage to discount the importance of scouting and adjusting.
|
I have to disagree that playing a certain way(outside of the actual battle) should give any advantage. Working harder to get better at all 9 matchups give you an additional advantage as it is seeing things from two sides, you better understand why strats work, you start to comprehend to a greater degree what each and every unit is capable of doing in capable hands. Beyond that of a rock paper scissors mechanic.
This can be done by choosing, But in choosing it is going to take longer to feel out the depth of the other races builds.
without playing all 3 races, you are not going to know exactly how far away from a given cliff a unit with path when told to a-move from point a to point b. Playing perfect playing random you just might know that, which allows you an advantage(this feels like a poor example I may update later) But the skill set is already there, the only perk to being able to play all 9 matchups imo is the one of personal pride and bragging rights, Because at no point, at no skill level, even if you could know how many pixles make up 128 marines and 2 zealots, should you ever, ever, get an advantage in the first second of the game, weather its small or large.
justifying this is like saying justifying that people witht he macro achievments should have automatic macroing....no, its just not right. in any withstanding strategy game that has lasted long(besides blizzard games of course but pure awesomeness allows for a quirk here and there) has any startoff advantage been allowed.
one more direction I want to argue this then I will cease beating a dead horse, Imagine if you will chess did not start off with the same pieces every game. imagine if you will that that a player could hide what pieces he was choosing to incorperate into his game. This would have to be both ways or neither way. not even bobby fisher would deserve this advantage.
|
^^^ I think you do not realize that Random is a race of its own, and not Zerg / Terran / Protoss. No one has "mastered all the races".. except up to gold-platinum. Korean progamers admit to be learning 24/7 for years; a process which never stops. As for your chess example, imagine if one should play 3 different games (say: chess, bridge, go) vs the masters of each game; that would be a better example.
|
I usually depot-rax-depot wall-in and scout after first depot and go straight for gas/fact. You'll find him soon enough and go from there.
I feel it's both safe and versatile but I guess this (or the 1/1/1 mentioned above) could become really standard.
I really can't be arsed with randoms that don't tell their race so sometimes I just hard cheese.
This.
The wall works for a standard opening that gives you a bit of leeway on almost any opponent strat. From there you should be able to scout in time to push your tech in the right direction to not lose any steps along the way.
|
On July 14 2010 02:44 ikarigendo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:32 jp_zer0 wrote:On July 13 2010 10:12 Darthturtle wrote:On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage. There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell. terran - terran terran - zerg terran - protoss zerg - zerg zerg - protoss protoss - protoss only 6 brah, it's k. No, you are wrong, it is indeed 9: TvT TvZ TvP ZvZ ZvT ZvP PvP PvZ PvT Remember that TvP is a *different* match up than PvT. In one case, you are the terran player. In the other, you are protoss. Obviously, this requires learning different build orders. EDIT: Also, I don't see why random shouldn't have a small advantage to make up for the monumental task of learning 9 match ups. I like the current system, whereby their race is unknown until scouted by the opponent.
Also wrong, you forgot RvR as the random player must still cope with his opponent being random and needs an opening to compensate for each of the three races as well.
|
On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
ohh.. but being able to concentrate purely on one race while a random player needs to learn all 3 isn't an advantage for "choosers"??
|
As Terran vs Random I usually make a depot at 9 and look around with that same SCV when it's done. If you suspect cheese, you'll probably end up responding to it the same way regardless of what race you're against.
|
Number Diamond (lol) I scout while the depot is building and wall in, always open with rax on 11 if its a two player map, and get a fast gas. After that you can just see what hes doing and react accordingly.
|
I'm a random player myself and have to agree it is not easy learning all the builds. anyway, here's my strat:
TvT: no wall-in, tech to tanks asap and do mech build
TvZ: wall-in with production buildings > tanks
TvP: marine, 1 tank, 1 raven rush
ZvZ: bane speedling
ZvT: baneling bust (my best match-up ever, because u random, they normally wall in with depots as standard play. win% around 95% so far)
ZvP: baneling bust works 80% of the time since they normally place zlot at ramp and then tech
PvP: tech to 2 cols and push
PvZ: (dunno what to do.. my worst match-up.. keep losing to all kinds of zerg builds that counter me perfectly. win% 15%... =(
PvT: blink stalkers harass with obs then tech to counter whatever..
then there's another 3 sub category:
TvR: standard OC build till scout
ZvR: 8 pool rush!!! and hopefully do enough dmg and scouting to stay in the game
PvR: proxy 2 gate.. and hopefully win in a base exchange or something..
This build easily got me into diamond, but once i was there, i have A LOT of trouble against zerg.. my overall win% against zerg is around 20% only.. I'm looking for specific forums and build orders for all 3 races against zerg but I haven't found one that is suitable because zerg can react to any kind of unit composition pretty quickly and by the time u reach their base, they have the right units to deal with your army..
any feedback/constructive criticism is welcomed.. other than my use of english or other unrelated to sc2 crap..
|
The only time i have a hard time vs random is when the random turns into T (as I play T). With that said I usually go 15 Orbital Command and by 4:00 - 4:30 into the game I have a 2nd CC started waiting to become a Planetary Defense. I open Planetary Defense in all match ups as FE so that way I can mass up a quick Tier 1/1.5 army. So either race that shows, I'm starting off with a early expand and strong defense at the natural. I'm usually able to win vs Gold opponents doing this.
|
On July 12 2010 20:30 Sadistx wrote:If you're afraid of cheese, just go 9 rax 10 gas and get 1 reaper first. If there's no cheese, use the reaper to harrass, if there was cheese, you just won  Otherwise you just scout them and play like you would play standard vs that race.
i'm gonna try this one 
|
On July 14 2010 04:29 sadeiko wrote:
at no point, at no skill level, even if you could know how many pixles make up 128 marines and 2 zealots, should you ever, ever, get an advantage in the first second of the game, weather its small or large.
This happens ALL THE TIME, even without random races. For example: some start positions on 4-player maps are more advantageous than others (given your race and the other person's race). Start positions are randomly chosen. This gives one player an advantage.
Also: some races have higher win percentages overall, or higher percentages on certain maps. Again, this gives an advantage to one player right from the first second of the game.
So, giving one player an advantage at the start of the game (such as random players currently enjoy while their race is unknown) is nothing unusual.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
