|
Hello,
I'm actually a top 20 diamond terran player and I almost systematicly lose to any top random player. I noticed that, on some maps, even if you send your scv very soon, you just cannot see your opponent soon enough to make the build you need against his race.
This is kinda problematic when you have a very specific way of play against each race, so while you are still blind, you have to make a choice after the unavoidable standard supply/barrack/gaz.
So, what's next for you ? Barrack or Factory ? for which reason ?
|
Good question.. maybe the 1/1/1 build gives the most flexibility. Don't have a great answer though.
|
Netherlands6142 Posts
I usually depot-rax-depot wall-in and scout after first depot and go straight for gas/fact. You'll find him soon enough and go from there.
I feel it's both safe and versatile but I guess this (or the 1/1/1 mentioned above) could become really standard.
I really can't be arsed with randoms that don't tell their race so sometimes I just hard cheese.
|
I send out 1 SCV on 8 before I send my 9th to build a suply at my choke/ramp.
If you are against a terran, you can get there to harass his rax building SCV and at least make him pull an SCV for a little while. It often stops him from scouting you as well as he doesn't want to use 1 SCV to chase yours down, 1 SCV to scout and his rax building SCV, all off the minerals.
If you are against protoss, well.. you get to see if he 2 gates or not and against zerg, obviously scouting is great for an anti cheese or you can even bunker rush him with that SCV.
As for the build order, I tend to get rax and factory. Even if it's a 4 player map, sending that SCV out will have scouted them by the time you start your factory.
|
If you're afraid of cheese, just go 9 rax 10 gas and get 1 reaper first.
If there's no cheese, use the reaper to harrass, if there was cheese, you just won 
Otherwise you just scout them and play like you would play standard vs that race.
|
I like the idea of 1/1/1 BO even if it forces you to do some tech strat.
On the other side, I don't like so much things that break down your economy, like very early scout or fast reaper opening... but they may be useful in some cases, will try some :p
|
I'm only in bronze however I tend to open Maraders+Tanks, going fast gas and a late expo vs random.
|
On July 12 2010 19:20 Pholon wrote:
I usually depot-rax-depot wall-in and scout after first depot and go straight for gas/fact. You'll find him soon enough and go from there.
I do either this (4 player maps) or get the moderately fast Reaper (better for 2 player maps i guess?).
|
On July 12 2010 18:39 Aken wrote:
even if you send your scv very soon, you just cannot see your opponent soon enough to make the build you need against his race.
When is very soon?
Vs random on a 4 player map, I send my SCV when my depot is just about started, if he's on last position I'll have scouting information just about when my first rax finishes.
|
As a Random player, I usually play standard and never cheese (not counting stuff like a fast VR, for example). Against Terran, I always scout early-ish because I really want to get in for a look before that wall finishes. I think that if you're random and your opponent is terran and you let them get a walloff before you can scout them, it's basically a giant crapshoot as to who has the strat that counters the other person.
|
Play a standard economy build getting a gas after your first rax. Scout early enough to tech correctly.I usually have my 12th SCV scout if they go random.
|
i like to scout after my 1st depot is done and go 1-1-1 with the marine hellion push at the start.
|
I'm a random player myself and I do love taking advantage of this. Your best bet is just to play it as safe as you can without over exerting yourself. Depending on the map, you might even want to go rax first before depot (i.e. Steps of War).
|
I dont see why its random hidden. It should randomly chose but not give an advantage. The other side of the coin is that if you take the time and have the skill to play all 3 races then you have earned the advantage. But if your already that good why want the advantage.
Tournament play should have it. Public play shouldnt. Or is that backwards...?
|
I think going for fast tech (1/1/1...?) is the most flexible play. Random users tend to kinda suck though, so i often find myself just practicing my reaper micro on them. It's not uncommon for my harass to just kill them
|
Op seems like your problem is not scouting early enough perhaps? Personally vs random i always wall-in and scout after my first depot.
|
I always open 10depot vs random- and scout with my 8th scv on a 1v1 map (steppes, do, blistering) and my 7th scv on a 4 player map. I hate being in the dark about my opps race.
Plus sometimes you get lucky, scout a zerg going 15 hatch or some other greedy build like that.
The only race im having trouble with now (in diamond div) is protoss. IDK whats changed since patch 15... I used to roll them 
|
Yeah maybe i don't scout early enough... now i will do that at 7 or 8 ^^
|
i just go for the superduper 1/1/1 build, i send my scouting scv when my rax is halfway done as usual. Just playing normal & solid as Day9 suggest 
|
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
|
On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/.
|
On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/.
i think he's saying when a person chooses random in a tourney they should be required at game start to state their race accurately... not saying i agree but that's what he's saying
|
Open with a factory opening. You don't have to go 1/1/1 (actually vs terran or protoss this can put you at a disadvantage). I would not play multiple barracks ever (it's pretty bad vs any race but especially vs terran you're gonna be quite behind). If you want to play super safe, scout while making your depot. Yes, a lot of random players like to cheese because it's even harder to predict and counter. It's very possible to lose to that stuff just by bad luck. More times than not you'll be ok though.
|
I feel the 9/10 rax, 10 ref build works best on this occasion. I scout with my 11th scv after orbital command, and grab a reaper for D, if i see an opening then i go straight for a 2nd reaper.
Just keep level headed and expect ANYTHING. Once you know what he is playing, look for his angle.
|
I've been using the same build against all and its been pretty effective. Basically, a 2 rax to seige tank build. Followed by a few medivacs + vikings. I basically push out with my first 4-6 marauders(conc shell done, stim on the way). So far its been very effective against against all races. You probably will lose to mass lings or void rush though if not scouted.
|
Well... I am pretty sure that opening 10 Depot, 12 Rax, 13 Refinery, 15 Orbital, Marine is ideal vs every race. If you scout even as late as your Depot SCV, you will still know in plenty of time, even on a 4 player map.
His scout will get to your base sooner or later, and if not, just throw down your Factory at 100 gas and hang out for another 5 seconds it takes to enter the 4th base.
|
On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/.
I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random.
When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage.
|
On July 13 2010 02:53 Sleight wrote:
Well... I am pretty sure that opening 10 Depot, 12 Rax, 13 Refinery, 15 Orbital, Marine is ideal vs every race. If you scout even as late as your Depot SCV, you will still know in plenty of time, even on a 4 player map.
His scout will get to your base sooner or later, and if not, just throw down your Factory at 100 gas and hang out for another 5 seconds it takes to enter the 4th base.
Yep ! All my BOs start by this very conventional recipe, but it's just after the orbital I do something very different for each race. So its ok with scouting earlier. If I send my 8 or 9 SCV instead of depot SCV I can have the time to see all the pos before spending money for the key building.
But there is another problem now :D
The placement of my firts building is really different depending on whether I play vs Z, P or T.
vs Z I use only big buildings to wall (often at the bottom of the ramp) while vs T I don't use wall at all.
So vs RANDOM, If I choose to use the "standard" wall (supply/barrack/supply) it mean I could not do the BO you mentioned before, and it mean I could die to zerg too.
If I chose to prevent Zerg, I have to place my supply anywhere, but my barrack on the ramp and wait for my scv to find my opponent to see what im gonna do (facto or barrack), which i find quite annoying (despite the fact you have to put down an additional supply to correctly finish the wall).
|
I would do the standard economic opening supply/rack/orbital/gas and go with 1/1/1 (1/1 if you dont like starports (Darn 2 base mutaling sometimes i randomly go ebay 2 fact thor and get a planetary fortress/turrets...when the mutaling shows up...FU!!)). Do a Baneling safe wall off, with second depot at the location which completes a double wall when you add your fact. By now you have scouting info. +theres no need to wall at the bottom of your ramp.
If you have a feeling of unease then get a reactor on the barrack since the right amount rines or hellions or vikings can pretty much hold out against everything thrown at you early on.
imo if all 3 races are balanced then random is tinyly imba. : D which is fine : D Though i feel BMed when I play vs random...tho only because players don't random in BW...but this is not BW right?
: D
|
On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/.
He's saying that picking random gives an advantage because they have an up on you without you knowing their race
|
As a random player myself, if I go up against another random player I immediately send out a gatherer to find out what my opponent's race is before choosing my own tech path. If I random as Terran, going for a standard 1/1/1 build is almost always my initial tech choice but I will opt out of fast Starport if I see my opponent doing something like quick banelings or a zealot pump.
|
Wow, saying 1/1/1 for every random game is a bit limited. It's a good balanced build but thats like saying 1/1/1 is good against all races and all builds.
The key moments of a TvX is the beginning. Thus I said 10rax10ref because it gets a rax up quick for whatever early harass may be. Past that, it just depends who/what you're up against after you scout. Just scout early and put a little bit more effort into early D, then if he went for an expo, use your early D to be Early O =D
|
Start scouting early while moving into a 1/1/1 build until im sure of what strategy my opponent has chosen.
|
I'm almost sure i've seen louder sending hist 6th scv's right away to scout.
I've also been doing it, it does delay you but at least if they are Zerg you have the information do make rax/rax or rax/factory to stop banelings.
and if you can or like, you can do a proxy rax at 9/10 to cheese him with reaper, or go for a bunker at his ramp
|
On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage.
There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell.
|
Step 1: scout
Step 2: beat them because you're so much better.
|
Being skilled enough to be competent in all 9 match ups should grant you the advantage of having a one up against players who pick and can only play one race. I don't understand how that is BM. It shows that if you truly are skilled enough to play all match ups equally, than you are the more versatile player and deserve the advantage.
The reason why no one played random in BW was because it was impossible to remember the build orders fluently in all 9 match ups without getting confused. It's a little bit easier in SC2 just because it's a newer game with more opportunities for experimenting.
EDIT: The idea of showing a player's race who picks random at the load screen is absolutely RIDICULOUS. As the game progresses and build orders become more refined, the amount of random players will slowly start declining naturally.
|
On July 13 2010 11:39 kidcrash wrote:
The idea of showing a player's race who picks random at the load screen is absolutely RIDICULOUS. As the game progresses and build orders become more refined, the amount of random players will slowly start declining naturally.
Agreed on the first point. On the second, what makes you think that they will decline? I don't see that build orders are correlated to people choosing random.
|
The best advise has already been said here. Early scouting. As one poster suggested, get the scout before or just as your rax finishes. This can't leave them too much time, pending a 'cheese' play, to do any more than you are? I mean, if they do go 'cheese', you have the opportunity to wall off whilst scouting. If you don't really care about 'cheese' play, then do what you do. Either way, finding them early and getting as much info as possible is always the best advice versus any random. Except TLO, because you never know what he's going to do, even if you scout.<Mildly kidding on this last sentence btw.
|
On July 13 2010 10:12 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage. There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell.
terran - terran
terran - zerg
terran - protoss
zerg - zerg
zerg - protoss
protoss - protoss
only 6 brah, it's k.
|
There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell.
terran - terran
terran - zerg
terran - protoss
zerg - zerg
zerg - protoss
protoss - protoss
only 6 brah, it's k.
Are you really trying to argue that it's okay because that person "earned" the advantage? That's like saying I got a few achievements so now I can hide what race I am playing...
Players accomplishments should not equal advantages through anything other than their own skill.
|
Against random I just do the standard 10supply 12rax 15OC opening, but I make sure to scout early to just make sure there isn't any 6pool happening or 2-3gate allins. From there adapt and react =D
|
I open for a non wall-in techbuild but scout early enough to branch off it if I feel I need to. I open 10 depot, 11 refinery, 12 rax without building a depot at the ramp. By the time my rax is done I will already know what I am up against and can either start the factory right away when the rax finishes or I can go for more raxes and a bio build. If I go for a bio build at that point I will just dump the excess gas I got for that techbuild into some fast upgrades or early ghosts.
If I am against zerg I can also easily wall of still with production buildings.
If you have to pick build before knowing which race you are playing against though, then you are just scouting way too late.
|
On July 13 2010 04:45 Schamus wrote:
Wow, saying 1/1/1 for every random game is a bit limited. It's a good balanced build but thats like saying 1/1/1 is good against all races and all builds.
The key moments of a TvX is the beginning. Thus I said 10rax10ref because it gets a rax up quick for whatever early harass may be. Past that, it just depends who/what you're up against after you scout. Just scout early and put a little bit more effort into early D, then if he went for an expo, use your early D to be Early O =D
well it IS a good opening against all races .
there is no situation where opening with a fax is bad and by the time its finished you really really really should know what your opponents race is so you can still adapt and decide wether you want to add the starport or rather go for more rax, fast expo or whatever.
Are you really trying to argue that it's okay because that person "earned" the advantage? That's like saying I got a few achievements so now I can hide what race I am playing...
Players accomplishments should not equal advantages through anything other than their own skill.
the advantage is super minor. i rnd myself and actually enjoy playing vs random alot. it makes you think and adapt more. really crying about random having a "unfair" advantage isnt cool. it was fine in sc1,wc3 and evry game ever made. so why suddenly complain about it?
and yes, people give up overall playstrength to random cause no one is equally good at all races. so you should be able to deal with having to scout properly
|
On July 14 2010 00:32 jp_zer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2010 10:12 Darthturtle wrote:On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage. There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell. terran - terran terran - zerg terran - protoss zerg - zerg zerg - protoss protoss - protoss only 6 brah, it's k.
No, you are wrong, it is indeed 9:
TvT
TvZ
TvP
ZvZ
ZvT
ZvP
PvP
PvZ
PvT
Remember that TvP is a *different* match up than PvT. In one case, you are the terran player. In the other, you are protoss. Obviously, this requires learning different build orders.
EDIT: Also, I don't see why random shouldn't have a small advantage to make up for the monumental task of learning 9 match ups. I like the current system, whereby their race is unknown until scouted by the opponent.
|
On July 12 2010 18:39 Aken wrote:
Hello,
I'm actually a top 20 diamond terran player and I almost systematicly lose to any top random player. I noticed that, on some maps, even if you send your scv very soon, you just cannot see your opponent soon enough to make the build you need against his race.
This is kinda problematic when you have a very specific way of play against each race, so while you are still blind, you have to make a choice after the unavoidable standard supply/barrack/gaz.
So, what's next for you ? Barrack or Factory ? for which reason ?
it also bothers me that so many diamond players seem to be random players. i go with regular OC build and quick factory next to rax to complete all-in zealot/baneling proof wall and usually work from there into ghostmech vs immortal, banshee vs void/dt, MMM or 2fact vs z, rine/tank/viking vs t.
|
Diamond players are still bad players with good mechanics, or good players with bad mechanics... They aren't pro-caliber unless they already were pro-caliber.
It is true, that you don't want forward buildings in the TvT matchup, so either decide that the cost of walling off vs. Zerg is worth it or not, no sense in whining about something that will ALWAYS exist.
If you don't want to wall with your Depot, sure, then just throw down your Barracks at your ramp, if you still don't know. If only Barracks could somehow... "float" or "fly" to different locations in case you ended up not wanting it there, like in TvT.
|
Playing Random is so much more difficult than playing a chosen race that the compensation one gets from his opponent having to send a very early scout (eg: 7th) is not enough. + Show Spoiler +That's why usually one sees the ratio of players is about 10% R to 30% of each other race. I'm shocked to see people insisting the random players to announce race and removing the little (almost negligible) compensation they have for playing the most difficult race in the game. Even on the highest level of skill it takes special dedication to specific BO (with variations) to develop it enough at some moment of time that you can play very well with it. For a random player that means you are working on 3 such BO trees at the same time. This quantity plus the stats that say around 10% random players usually (I heard it in a recent Blizzard report too), both support the fact that Random as a race must be about 3 times more difficult to play with. And there is no Random player, not even TLO, to be able to match the quality of preparation of BOs of a specified race player. On average, in the top level ladder rankings that I've seen, random players get significantly lower rankings than the specific races.
If the early scout was that beneficial, as some people here complained, then one would see more Random players online, and winning tournaments, but that doesn't happen. That said, if the skill cap in SC2 is somewhat lower than BW (remains to be seen) it is more probable to expect more (at least some!) Random players in SC2 playing competitively in the pro-leagues. Something which to my knowledge didn't happen in the Korean leagues for BW. There are Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, but no top Random player to win titles and dominate ladders. Since Blizzard officially treats Random as a fourth race of its own merit, if they succeed to make it more viable for the pro-scene of SC2, that would be a step in the right direction for them. Finally, if someone firmly believes Random has too much advantage, I encourage them to play Random. If it's true, we must use that super advantage, so that it shows up in the stats, and Blizzard realizes and makes the proper adjustments. If it isn't true, please don't insist on random players' race being announced. I've seen Random players type in their race when the game begins, and to me this means they say: "Here, I give you handicap".
|
Ill say this in as few words as possible. Scouting is PARAMOUNT TO VICTORY. If your not scouting properly or soon enough given the situation. You will lose random or not. Just becuase you know the race or not isnt a big enough an advantage to discount the importance of scouting and adjusting.
|
I have to disagree that playing a certain way(outside of the actual battle) should give any advantage. Working harder to get better at all 9 matchups give you an additional advantage as it is seeing things from two sides, you better understand why strats work, you start to comprehend to a greater degree what each and every unit is capable of doing in capable hands. Beyond that of a rock paper scissors mechanic.
This can be done by choosing, But in choosing it is going to take longer to feel out the depth of the other races builds.
without playing all 3 races, you are not going to know exactly how far away from a given cliff a unit with path when told to a-move from point a to point b. Playing perfect playing random you just might know that, which allows you an advantage(this feels like a poor example I may update later) But the skill set is already there, the only perk to being able to play all 9 matchups imo is the one of personal pride and bragging rights, Because at no point, at no skill level, even if you could know how many pixles make up 128 marines and 2 zealots, should you ever, ever, get an advantage in the first second of the game, weather its small or large.
justifying this is like saying justifying that people witht he macro achievments should have automatic macroing....no, its just not right. in any withstanding strategy game that has lasted long(besides blizzard games of course but pure awesomeness allows for a quirk here and there) has any startoff advantage been allowed.
one more direction I want to argue this then I will cease beating a dead horse, Imagine if you will chess did not start off with the same pieces every game. imagine if you will that that a player could hide what pieces he was choosing to incorperate into his game. This would have to be both ways or neither way. not even bobby fisher would deserve this advantage.
|
^^^ I think you do not realize that Random is a race of its own, and not Zerg / Terran / Protoss. No one has "mastered all the races".. except up to gold-platinum. Korean progamers admit to be learning 24/7 for years; a process which never stops. As for your chess example, imagine if one should play 3 different games (say: chess, bridge, go) vs the masters of each game; that would be a better example.
|
I usually depot-rax-depot wall-in and scout after first depot and go straight for gas/fact. You'll find him soon enough and go from there.
I feel it's both safe and versatile but I guess this (or the 1/1/1 mentioned above) could become really standard.
I really can't be arsed with randoms that don't tell their race so sometimes I just hard cheese.
This.
The wall works for a standard opening that gives you a bit of leeway on almost any opponent strat. From there you should be able to scout in time to push your tech in the right direction to not lose any steps along the way.
|
On July 14 2010 02:44 ikarigendo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 00:32 jp_zer0 wrote:On July 13 2010 10:12 Darthturtle wrote:On July 13 2010 03:06 Competent wrote:On July 12 2010 23:33 Zoltan wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
I really don't understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying that random has an inherant advantage because they didnt pick their race? Or are you saying that you want to pick random and that takes away the element of surprise? I keep reading the sentence and it makes less and less sense =/. I am saying that random enables them to know what race you are while you are blind to who they are. There should be no benifit to just selecting random. When you choose random it should show what was selected at the load screen, still enabling a person to let the computer choose but not giving and advantage. There's an advantage to having to practice nine matchups? Do tell. terran - terran terran - zerg terran - protoss zerg - zerg zerg - protoss protoss - protoss only 6 brah, it's k. No, you are wrong, it is indeed 9: TvT TvZ TvP ZvZ ZvT ZvP PvP PvZ PvT Remember that TvP is a *different* match up than PvT. In one case, you are the terran player. In the other, you are protoss. Obviously, this requires learning different build orders. EDIT: Also, I don't see why random shouldn't have a small advantage to make up for the monumental task of learning 9 match ups. I like the current system, whereby their race is unknown until scouted by the opponent.
Also wrong, you forgot RvR as the random player must still cope with his opponent being random and needs an opening to compensate for each of the three races as well.
|
On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
ohh.. but being able to concentrate purely on one race while a random player needs to learn all 3 isn't an advantage for "choosers"??
|
As Terran vs Random I usually make a depot at 9 and look around with that same SCV when it's done. If you suspect cheese, you'll probably end up responding to it the same way regardless of what race you're against.
|
Number Diamond (lol) I scout while the depot is building and wall in, always open with rax on 11 if its a two player map, and get a fast gas. After that you can just see what hes doing and react accordingly.
|
I'm a random player myself and have to agree it is not easy learning all the builds. anyway, here's my strat:
TvT: no wall-in, tech to tanks asap and do mech build
TvZ: wall-in with production buildings > tanks
TvP: marine, 1 tank, 1 raven rush
ZvZ: bane speedling
ZvT: baneling bust (my best match-up ever, because u random, they normally wall in with depots as standard play. win% around 95% so far)
ZvP: baneling bust works 80% of the time since they normally place zlot at ramp and then tech
PvP: tech to 2 cols and push
PvZ: (dunno what to do.. my worst match-up.. keep losing to all kinds of zerg builds that counter me perfectly. win% 15%... =(
PvT: blink stalkers harass with obs then tech to counter whatever..
then there's another 3 sub category:
TvR: standard OC build till scout
ZvR: 8 pool rush!!! and hopefully do enough dmg and scouting to stay in the game
PvR: proxy 2 gate.. and hopefully win in a base exchange or something..
This build easily got me into diamond, but once i was there, i have A LOT of trouble against zerg.. my overall win% against zerg is around 20% only.. I'm looking for specific forums and build orders for all 3 races against zerg but I haven't found one that is suitable because zerg can react to any kind of unit composition pretty quickly and by the time u reach their base, they have the right units to deal with your army..
any feedback/constructive criticism is welcomed.. other than my use of english or other unrelated to sc2 crap..
|
The only time i have a hard time vs random is when the random turns into T (as I play T). With that said I usually go 15 Orbital Command and by 4:00 - 4:30 into the game I have a 2nd CC started waiting to become a Planetary Defense. I open Planetary Defense in all match ups as FE so that way I can mass up a quick Tier 1/1.5 army. So either race that shows, I'm starting off with a early expand and strong defense at the natural. I'm usually able to win vs Gold opponents doing this.
|
On July 12 2010 20:30 Sadistx wrote:If you're afraid of cheese, just go 9 rax 10 gas and get 1 reaper first. If there's no cheese, use the reaper to harrass, if there was cheese, you just won Otherwise you just scout them and play like you would play standard vs that race.
i'm gonna try this one 
|
On July 14 2010 04:29 sadeiko wrote:
at no point, at no skill level, even if you could know how many pixles make up 128 marines and 2 zealots, should you ever, ever, get an advantage in the first second of the game, weather its small or large.
This happens ALL THE TIME, even without random races. For example: some start positions on 4-player maps are more advantageous than others (given your race and the other person's race). Start positions are randomly chosen. This gives one player an advantage.
Also: some races have higher win percentages overall, or higher percentages on certain maps. Again, this gives an advantage to one player right from the first second of the game.
So, giving one player an advantage at the start of the game (such as random players currently enjoy while their race is unknown) is nothing unusual.
|
If you're assuming that a random player has any advantage at all, Then you have to first assume that said player is proficient in every single random matchup.
Now let's say, for argument's sake, that he's as good in all 9 matchups as you are in your three. You take away his random advantage. He stops going random. He now practices three times as hard for one single race. He owns you hardcore anyway.
Too many people forget that the moment he picks random, the random player has a disadvantage.
|
I don't understand this thread at all...
wall of your choke, scout on 11 or 12, get a gas at around 12.
what is the problem...?
its not like in wc3 where if ur night elf and ur vs a random you are screwed on say lost temple, cuz u needed to go potm hunts and u didnt.
the opening i mentioned is sufficient against all 3 races...
|
At the start of a match against any race, you don't know what your opponent is doing. So, you:
1) Perform a stable opening which will involve you not dying
2) Scout him
3) Adjust your opening to what your opponent can have, knowing what you do after scouting him.
Yes, the first three minutes of your build will not be as optimized as it could've been against a player who chose race. No, that's not a big fucking deal.
|
On July 14 2010 14:01 Severedevil wrote:
At the start of a match against any race, you don't know what your opponent is doing. So, you:
1) Perform a stable opening which will involve you not dying
2) Scout him
3) Adjust your opening to what your opponent can have, knowing what you do after scouting him.
Yes, the first three minutes of your build will not be as optimized as it could've been against a player who chose race. No, that's not a big fucking deal.
I think Severedevil has broken Starcraft 2 AS WE KNOW IT!??!!?!?
Thank you for being logical and reasonable. There is no trick to the game, y'all. Read the above and actually follow it, whether the opponent is Random or not.
|
On July 14 2010 05:52 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
ohh.. but being able to concentrate purely on one race while a random player needs to learn all 3 isn't an advantage for "choosers"??
needs
needs
needs
...
That player CHOOSE that, he WANTED to do random, do not make it out like he NEEDS to play random.
It's and advantage, no argument.
|
On July 14 2010 20:25 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 05:52 stk01001 wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
ohh.. but being able to concentrate purely on one race while a random player needs to learn all 3 isn't an advantage for "choosers"?? ... That player CHOOSE that, he WANTED to do random, do not make it out like he NEEDS to play random. It's and advantage, no argument.
If it's really that much of an advantage than why don't you just choose random yourself? It's not an advantage if anyone has the option of choosing it. Also I think you misunderstood what he was saying. He was saying that by choosing random, you need to learn all 3 races or else it's a disadvantage. Aside from that it's actually even deeper because you are learning 9 match ups in addition to random vs random. You end up pulling the 1-3 match ups that you have a less than a 50% win ratio with and guess what, your so called advantage(minimal advantage at best) has just turned into a HUGE disadvantage that could have been avoided by just picking race.
|
I go 9 depot/10 rax/11 refinery to prepare for 6pool or 8gate.
|
It's a small advantage to be random at the start in exchange for a large disadvantage of having 1/3 the experiance of a focused player.
Also I always wall off in TvT, I've never had a problem with tanks dominating forward buildings (I make sure to get air control) and I HAVE had problems with MM stim rushes before seige finshes.
|
Terran vs random is no problem really, the 'standard' build order is fine up till the point the OC finishes at which time you surely should know what race the opponent is. Even on the biggest map it's easy to have scouted your opponent by then. If for some odd reason you haven't you can always add a factory at that point which is fine against all races as well: hellions against z, 1-1-1 vs toss & terran.
|
I don't get why people complain about the advantage random gets. I literally can't comprehend how you can complain about it it's that evident to me that random should get the benefit of the opponent not knowing who they are up against
If you just want to randomize what race you play roll a D6 and divide by two. I guess it would be a nice feature to have a "random but revealed" builtin for practicing but playing against a random needs to mean "you will face a random race and don't know which" in any competitive setting
|
If you haven't scouted your opponent by the time you finish building your barracks, then I don't know what to tell you. It's not random that's your problem, though.
|
On July 14 2010 20:25 Competent wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2010 05:52 stk01001 wrote:On July 12 2010 23:29 Competent wrote:
I have said it once and I will say it again, there should be no element of suprise because you want to choose random, it is an unfair advantage that random people obtain that us "Choosers" do not receive.
ohh.. but being able to concentrate purely on one race while a random player needs to learn all 3 isn't an advantage for "choosers"?? ... That player CH OOSE that, he WANTED to douse random, do not make it out like he NEEDS to play random. It's an d advantage, no argument.
Use proper English first. Then get this through your head. If the random player instead focused on a single race, he would have three times the practice with that one race.
By choosing random instead of a specific race, he is playing at a much lower level than his potential. This negates any advantage you imagine he has.
|
On July 15 2010 00:34 sikyon wrote:
Also I always wall off in TvT, I've never had a problem with tanks dominating forward buildings (I make sure to get air control) and I HAVE had problems with MM stim rushes before seige finshes.
I also generally wall off as a terran, as well as build on the choke as a toss (I play random). If my scouting probe spots a cheese, I can always toss a second gateway to close it up and buy myself some time. As zerg, depending on map/spawning location I simcity so if needed I can add 2 spines inside. This, coupled with early scouting works most of the time to prepare for anything early on (except for some proxys).
|
I scout....? I usually scout early, with the worker that finished the first depot, so nothing special vs. random in terms of scouting.
really - do the normal wall-in with bunker+depots, get gas, upgrade CC, until then, you should've pretty much scouted out what the opponent is playing. If not, I build a factory next.
|
If it's random, I 10 rax to have some anti-cheese insurance, just like how I 10 rax 9 out of 10 times on Steppes of War.
I don't hold random players in very high regard. They get a hefty innate advantage for being random and when you're splitting hairs as you almost always do in fragile SC, that extra 10 seconds they cost you minimum can be half of your mineral line dead. But there's nothing more you can do other than be more cautious than normal.
|
I have actually started stating my race at the start of every match for more accurate testing TvR ZvR and PvR are matches in and off themselves especially in the early game and they are not the match ups I really want to practice right now. In RvR when I get T which essentially makes it a TvR, I tend to open 1-1-1 and scout late. while walling off, it makes you more susceptible to some rushes but without it, it might be instant gg agianst zerg.
The other is opening something like early reapers or 4 rax into expand, early agression with bio balls into expand work against almost every race.
|
I'm 400 elo diamond atm.
You should just make sure you're comfortable opening tech lab or fact first vs all three races, so in case you scout them 3rd and don't get much information by then (scouting blocked) you have a fairly good idea of what to do no matter what you do up to that point. There are definitely a multitude of viable openings for each matchup, don't limit yourself to only one opening per matchup. Terran is pretty flexible.
9rax 11gas 11oc depot reaper asap is a good opening vs random. You can even opt to not scv scout to get a few extra minerals if you're so inclined. This gives you scouting and harassing, this works basically no matter what they did. Even a terran with well placed marines shouldn't be able to completely block your scouting with it.
I like opening 9rax 11depot 11oc 11marine 12gas in all three mus. You get a good economy going thanks to mules, and get marines a little quicker, which can help you react to whatever your opponent does. It does get gas a little slower though, for example hellions come out about 20 seconds slower than with 10depot 12rax 13gas. With this opening I scout with the scv that makes the barracks, and I'm comfortable with the speed at which I scout my opponent.
You could even preemptively cheese, forcing the game to go a certain way no matter what your opponent is. Something like a proxy 8rax -> reaper build, maybe with a bunk rush after you scout him is going to be effective to some degree no matter what. Reapers will stop any fast ling/zlot/marine cheese your opponent might opt for, and if they go standard all the more harass potential for you
Mostly facing random is just about how comfortable you are with a variety of builds and openings and being able to adapt any and all of them to any and every situation. Just use a build that plays to your strengths, and then figure out how to transition out of what you blindly choose based on what your opponent turns out doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
