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On May 29 2010 04:04 ScythedBlade wrote:
Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ...
Plan B:
The first pylon is created while the backup probe makes its way to his base (I'll start sending him if I see the Gateway being chronoed after a cybernetics core is up). The next few pylons are created around the perimeter of his base leading up to the ramp, so each pylon has its field extended into the enemy base. The units created from the first pylon (preferrably 2 stalkers and a zealot) make their way up the ramp to get vision for the second set to warp in. Only catch is if there is a well-placed forcefield, but it is only temporary.
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Oh and I just wanted to express my gratitude towards Tozar, you're one of the few in these forums that keep the quality up by opening threads with quality strats, always supporting them with a good amount of replays against (semi-)professional SC2 players. I see your low post count as something speaking for you rather than against you (quality vs. quantity).
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I just tried this build against 2 gate.
4 warpgate all in totally destroys two gate zealots. I built my gates at the choke - saw 2 gates no gas in opponent's base - went oh crap built a few zealots from my gates to hold choke and as soon as warpgates kicked in, it was gg.
Not even close.
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On May 29 2010 04:30 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 04:04 ScythedBlade wrote:
Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ... Plan B: The first pylon is created while the backup probe makes its way to his base (I'll start sending him if I see the Gateway being chronoed after a cybernetics core is up). The next few pylons are created around the perimeter of his base leading up to the ramp, so each pylon has its field extended into the enemy base. The units created from the first pylon (preferrably 2 stalkers and a zealot) make their way up the ramp to get vision for the second set to warp in. Only catch is if there is a well-placed forcefield, but it is only temporary.
Ahh, so that's how you handle it ...
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I don't think this is overpowered yet. I have gotten through 4 of the replays and still have some more to go. What I'm wondering is how a more aggressive build that puts pressure on you would do against this. If there is a replay with that which I hadn't gotten to, then I apologize, I'll try to watch the rest later. It seems like a good strategy, I'll try it later today. 
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United States10774 Posts
Tozar do you think we can practice a little bit today?
I want to learn how to deal with this more effectively
add me
[mod edit]
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On May 29 2010 04:43 Alou wrote:I don't think this is overpowered yet. I have gotten through 4 of the replays and still have some more to go. What I'm wondering is how a more aggressive build that puts pressure on you would do against this. If there is a replay with that which I hadn't gotten to, then I apologize, I'll try to watch the rest later. It seems like a good strategy, I'll try it later today.
I dunno if this is early enough pressure (first attack at around 5:30ish) - but here's a replay where there definitely was pressure.
Lots and lots of pressure. Pressure in the form of 10 zealots from 3 gateways at first attack.
I was even late (very very late) on my gate and cyber.
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So after some testing here are what I saw :
Tozar's timings are based on Oneother confrontation and are correct with +/- 1-2s sorry :
10Gate @ 1:33 (standard)
Core @ 2:43 (before 2nd Pylon)
2nd-3rdGate @ 3:54
4th Gate @4:12
Warp Gate tech @5:20
Warping units in your face with plan B @5:35
So in order to beat this with your own warpgates (will test later canons or more advanced units but I think only canons come soon enough) you have to :
- Send 10Gating probe to scout, see if this is this build or a 2gate zealots or whatever.
- Be close to his WG tech @5:20 and this requires you to get Core before 2nd Pylon, now if you are rushing for a fast stalker that is okay in my opinion to do it anyway without having scouted this. And you must chrono it at least 2 times. Kill probe with your fast stalker, add a zealot, this is crucial to stop his probes from building pylons in your mineral line. He will build them at your ramp, this is okay.
- When your probe reaches his base pay close attention to his gateway, if you see gateways build 2 more of your own. You must build them no more than 20s second from his 2nd-3rd. Stop building probes if you need these gateways. Resume probes later.
- Your tech should finish the same time your 2 gates finishes, since you have built aproximately 3 units (2Z and a stalker or 2stalkers and 1Z), your 3 gates should be enough to hold of your ramp or whats coming just above I know he's warping inside but since it is close to your units it is okay. You must focus fire with stalkers his warping in units in your base.
- Counter attack : you might consider building your 3rd or 4th pylon in his base and send 1 or 2 zealots if you can spare it. It will make him warp units in his base (less in yours) or he will lose a lot of probes (in both case you win).
Canons :
So i did some more testing to see if canons went soon enough.
What I did assume is that warp gate technologie is not as important if you go for a canon defense. So you can go 2nd pylon then core in my opinion. You have to make sure your constantly building unit with your 10Gate : Zealot, then stalker x2 chrno boost that. Be sure to still research warp gate and to scout with your 10gate probe. You should be in his base by the 3:00 mark depending on the map (before he goes crazy with gates). Continue your normal build, if you see 2nd and 3rd gate : cut probe production and pull probes out of 2nd gaz (if you built it), build a forge and a 2nd gateway with incoming minerals. Resume probe.
As soon as forge finishes add a canon. Keep building canons as feeling necessary and units from your 2 Gates. As I tested it i had my first canon at the 5:20 mark with 3 units which seems enough for the first wave. From there it is your 2Gate + canons v.s. his 4 Gates which seems ok.
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this stuff is superstrong, people who say its so easy to stop got no idea, gl when you face a top player, im not good but top of diamond league and struggle a lot to beat this oO
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Has anyone tried this one someone that actually makes an early Stalker? I mean, there's a clear MINUTE between when Player A gets a Stalker out to kill the Probe and player B gets Warp Gate tech done. Getting a Sentry or two out to completely fuck up your attack on your ramp isn't especially difficult after that, if they decide to just push your ramp after the Probe(s) get nuked.
Its basically the old proxy-pylon Warp Gate rush from yestermonth, only this time its ENTIRELY possible to kill the Probe(s) before they can drop Pylons in your mineral line. It was downright impossible before they added 80 seconds to the research time.
I can't honestly believe I'm alone in being a guy that *@&#ing hates having enemy workers running around his base.
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Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
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On May 29 2010 05:50 Bibdy wrote:
Has anyone tried this one someone that actually makes an early Stalker? I mean, there's a clear MINUTE between when Player A gets a Stalker out to kill the Probe and player B gets Warp Gate tech done. Getting a Sentry or two out to completely fuck up your attack on your ramp isn't especially difficult after that, if they decide to just push your ramp after the Probe(s) get nuked.
Its basically the old proxy-pylon Warp Gate rush from yestermonth, only this time its ENTIRELY possible to kill the Probe(s) before they can drop Pylons in your mineral line. It was downright impossible before they added 80 seconds to the research time.
I can't honestly believe I'm alone in being a guy that *@&#ing hates having enemy workers running around his base.
Watched 3 reps but what I saw is he builds pylons early which requires probes to be pulled to kill the 2-3 pylons, so even if he loses the probe theres still 2-3 pylons warping into the opponents base. If he thinks he will lose the first probe he just sends another to warp pylons outside. Basically even if you stop the initial pylons you still had to pull probes to defend cause a stalker alone can't kill 2-3 pylons that fast. And after that u will have to deal with 4 WGs just warping units into/near your base on cooldown.
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On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
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If anybody has watched the Ace vs White-ra game in the 17173 world tournament, what else should he have done? He scouted the pylon, but Ace just made like 3-4 pylons in his base. If one finishes his opponent will have equal or more stalkers in your base, forcing you to attack those as opposed to the pylons. Maybe you have to send 3-4 probes to attack each pylon? How much behind will this put you?
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The bigger tragedy is that regardless of whether this attack is stopped or not, it forces both players to go mass gateways. Just because ZvZ is lame doesn't mean every other mirror match-up should follow the same route.
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Just tried this a couple of times. Stalkers do take a while to kill Pylons for sure. I lost my first Probe to a Stalker, ran a second one in and he had 3 by then. I plopped down 2 Pylons before it died and 3 Stalkers couldn't kill them both before one finished. Then I chucked down 4 Stalkers, killed his 3 and picked up momentum from there.
Second attempt, the guy had 2-3 early Zealots after an econ build (13-gate I think it was), which totally raped my attempted Pylons (had to make 4, just to get one up). I got some Stalkers in his base, but didn't have the room to cause much chaos with that many Zealots chasing them. I had to build a Sentry to hold off his follow-up attack and split his force in half just to have a chance. After that it went into Tier 2 territory.
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On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
Yes, I do. Considering none of these are particularly amazing or creative alterations and well within the skill of players of their caliber, I don't see why they didn't. If you tried this again, though, I bet they would.
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On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
Posting like that really makes people want to discuss things with you.
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United States44402 Posts
On May 29 2010 04:14 ChickenLips wrote:Just went from fresh into Diamond (around #13 w/ 30-19) to #1 Diamond in my division. Got 4 PvP in a row and decided to test this strategy and BOY. They never check their base for my hidden probe (always survived, or maybe I'm just good at getting it in there) They see my 4 warpgates and continue to tech. They ragequit almost always (1 also called me "fu cking noob" .. lul) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yTQMJ.gif) I will not continue to use this strategy, just ain't no fun. (I don't play only to win) effective strat tho edit: btw. this feels fun to just win every single game, but on the other side of the battlefield, that shit's fcking annoying
Vast majority of Diamond players are awful. Good players won't let you pylon in their base. The strategy doesn't work and #1 Diamond doesn't change that.
Edit: That is to say that good players ensure their base is fully scouted and ensure pylons are around the edges for this kind of stuff. If scouted this build relies on hitting faster than the counterbuild to work, it's the chronoed warp gates that overwhelm the non chronoed ones without ramp or travel time that make it work. Without the proxy pylon in the main it lacks that tiny edge that slowly wears down a perfect counter.
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Okey
After watching you do this several times on your stream, and now also looking through the replays and reading yours and every other post in this thread I think we can draw a few conclusions:
This is far more powerfull than it should be. I mean
The reason this cheese is so powerful is because it doesn't require the player to cut any probes, it is simple to micro, it's easy to transition out of, and difficult to scout.
Only thing I disagree with there is that its very easy to scout isnt it? You dont even have a stalker in your own base to deny scouting.
With that being said the problem here imo is that you would have had to make adjustments BEFORE scouting the 4gates. Its a rock paper scissors build in that regard.
If he makes an earlie enough stalker he might have a chance att killing ur scouting probe before the pylons go down.
Which doesnt really make a diffrence since you can warp in right outside, and overpower them since they had to cut stuff for the earlie stalker
With that being said I totally agree with everything your post said, and I also liked how you came up with a well balanced solution to it. I suppose you had to since its our own race we're complaining about.
Earlier Gateway stalker with warp in cooldown remaining the same is an absolutely perfect solution and I especially like it because it will maybe make 12gating against terran viable again?
PS: I thought TL was a good place to post with alot of good feedback? Seems like most players in this thread are theorycrafting idiots who think they got 200apm?
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EPT
