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I do not take the use of the word overpowered lightly. There are many things in the game I consider powerful or difficult to counter, but this I consider to be nearly unstoppable. I was first introduced to this rush by a Korean Protoss player who destroyed me with it. I have adopted his strategy and refined it to the point where I can win every PvP if I time everything perfectly.
The following replay pack contains 12 games that are all top level Diamond PvP games, won by me consecutively without any PvP losses against other Diamond level players. Some of them are rematches with the same person who knows it is coming and cannot stop it. Only one of them is a game that I lost and it lasted an exhausting 45 minutes:
(Deprecated) Tozar's Overpowered 4 Warpgate Cheese
The reason this cheese is so powerful is because it doesn't require the player to cut any probes, it is simple to micro, it's easy to transition out of, and difficult to scout.
I believe this to be a potential balance issue. Given that I am a Protoss and do not want to see any more nerfs, I propose a slight decrease in the Stalker's Gateway build time, while keeping its Warpgate cooldown time the same to allow it to eliminate the scout probe sooner, preventing it from building more than 2 pylons in the mineral line. This would also remedy issues with powerful reaper rushes and marauder proxies while keeping the mid- to late-game for all races unaffected.
EDIT: This is not a typical 4 Warpgate rush. This build has a very specific timing that allows for up to 4 pylons to be constructed in the enemy mineral line usually before the first stalker is built. The first pylon is built around the 4:30 mark, the first 4 units are warped in around the 5:30 mark.
ADDITION:
This is a replay of someone's attempt at a 2 gate in base with 2 gate proxy aggression, stopped cold by a cannon, which allowed me to continue my build.
(Deprecated) 4 Warp Cheese Vs. Early Aggression - Win
This is an example of aggression thwarting the 4 warp cheese. Note how I fail to scout properly and react in time due to the hiding of his gateways.
(Deprecated) 4 Warp Cheese Vs. Early Aggression - Loss
TIPS FOR COUNTERING:
I don't think this is overpowered anymore, but it is strong against 12-13 gate builds. Just focus on making units and killing your opponent's units. Don't stop mining and don't get supply blocked.
Some detailed tips:
-Scout properly. Warning signs include: no units after cybernetics, heavily chronoboosted warpgate, possibly removing probes from gas
-Maintain production. Don't power all your warp gates on one pylon. You should get at least 3 gates when you scout this build.
-Kill the probe. You can throw off your opponent's timing by killing his scouting probe early. If you kill it before it builds 4 pylons, you might be able to destroy all of the pylons before his warpgate tech finishes.
-Attack the first wave of units as they warp in. That little head start can go a long way.
-Do not attack with all of your workers. If there are four pylons don't attack the pylon with workers, you will have units warping into your base. Sending all your probes to defend is wasteful and cuts in to your mining time, preventing you from warping in units. If you need to use workers to attack to gain an advantage, use no more than 5 because that's usually the most that can attack at a time anyway. The instant you pull all your probes off the minerals is the moment you've lost the game.
-Use stalkers, and keep them alive. Chances are your opponent has cut back on gas to pull this off. Stalkers are easier to micro and having enough of them will grant you an advantage eventually. Sentries are pretty useless in this situation unless you see an opportunity to trap his zealots somewhere, or if you are very low on minerals.
Check this replay for more tips on countering:
Replay
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This was overpowered like...12 patches ago. Now, it's pretty much a standard 4 warpgate rush, which is not hard to defend against as long as you keep up production and don't be too behind on gateway numbers.
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it all depends on micro but can be stopped by good forcefield usage however ive also lost to 3-gate robo builds when the micro is similar.
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It's not overpowered, 3 gate robo with good sentry FF to hold the ramp will hold it. How are you going to up the ramp if the other guy goes 2-3 gate robo obs and produces normal sentry stalkers, while camping his ramp?
User was warned for this post
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On May 28 2010 14:49 Zidane wrote:
It's not overpowered, 3 gate robo with good sentry FF to hold the ramp will hold it. How are you going to up the ramp if the other guy goes 2-3 gate robo obs and produces normal sentry stalkers, while camping his ramp?
Please watch the replays. The pylons are placed in the opponent's mineral line by the scouting probe.
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On May 28 2010 14:52 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 14:49 Zidane wrote:
It's not overpowered, 3 gate robo with good sentry FF to hold the ramp will hold it. How are you going to up the ramp if the other guy goes 2-3 gate robo obs and produces normal sentry stalkers, while camping his ramp? Please watch the replays. The pylons are placed in the opponent's mineral line by the scouting probe.
uhh? This doesn't happen if the other toss has a brain.
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Fixing a supposedly OP Protoss cheese by buffing another Protoss unit seems a little off. Besides, it would make Reapers even more useless since these have no real use besides early game rushes.
Maybe this will encourage earlier and better scouting, or a change in PvP play? I agree though that there could be a little tweaking.
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On May 28 2010 14:54 Zidane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 14:52 Tozar wrote:On May 28 2010 14:49 Zidane wrote:
It's not overpowered, 3 gate robo with good sentry FF to hold the ramp will hold it. How are you going to up the ramp if the other guy goes 2-3 gate robo obs and produces normal sentry stalkers, while camping his ramp? Please watch the replays. The pylons are placed in the opponent's mineral line by the scouting probe. uhh? This doesn't happen if the other toss has a brain.
Again, please watch the replays. One of them is against Huk, a well-known high level Protoss player.
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Okay I watched 3 replays like you requested.
There really isn't much to say. Normally, unless the Toss tried to do some kind of 2 gate build, he will always be able to get a stalker out in time to kill your probe before you can get anywhere close to completing your warpgate tech, which means no proxy pylons in his main.
All the times you actually pulled this off is when the other toss tried to go 2 zealots or a sentry which is pretty unorthodox.
In another replay, one of the tosses doesn't even bother building a stalker period, and opts to go 3-4 gates before a single unit.
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There's nothing overpowered about it, you have to place the gates before your first stalker gets out so your opponent is completely aware it's coming, so they should have enough time to immediately place the same number of gateways. Because you then have to place 2-3 pylons they should have enough of an advantage to beat it off. You're also stopping probe production at 18. The opponents in these replays reacted badly probably because it was the first time they had seen this strategy before. Most of them panicked and made the wrong units (stalkers and sentries instead of zealots), didn't stop their own probe production, saw the gateways and didn't immediately place more gates of their own, or made too many sentries (which in small numbers are bad vs zealots).
p.s. Stealing some korean's build and renaming it after a 50 apm player is funny.
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I don't really get it.
It seems like if the opposing Protoss player builds any kind of army this tactic would fail. If they're only building one Sentry in the first 6 minutes of the game then you probably don't even need Warpgate to roll over them. It looks like at least in the Huk game that he was counting on his Sentry to hold back any aggression with Forcefields. He didn't seem to react to you putting a bunch of Pylons in his base which is weird, I mean obviously *something* is up.
So yeah I think it beats a player who goes hardcore macro/tech but I don't think it's any more overpowered than like a 2-gate rush.
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I watched a number of the replays.
Against HuK he only made 1 gate and a cyber DESPITE scouting your 4 gates. He didn't even make units to defend or choke off his ramp /w a Zealot. (You had to send in another probe to make the proxy pylons so that would have stopped your rush right there) He honestly deserved to lose after making that kind of blunder. (Is this even the real HuK?)
All of the replays that I saw your opponents either made very few gates or produced very few units. You would automatically lose if your opponent was producing units before you completed warpgate. You would automatically lose to any kind of chronoboosted 2 gate zealots build.
Your opponents sucked. Your build is not overpowered. This thread does not deliver.
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Nice lame tactic. Does it work against Zerg or Toss? I cannot see why not. They cannot destroy 4 pylons fast enough as well and the probe can outrun the marine for a while as well.
If the zerg is going a 15 pool or something lings/queen will be late as well. Just put 4 pylons a bit earlier, I am sure 2 will still survive.
As for other toss, I do not think they were expecting this. Probe running through the base until this part of the game is not uncommon, people like to scout as late as possible. And he can see if the other guy makes a 2 gate build and react accordingly (1 stalker and 1 sentry built earlier, less then 4 pylons made in enemy base).
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This strat doesn't work period, with one stalker after a zealot.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:05 Zidane wrote:
Okay I watched 3 replays like you requested.
There really isn't much to say. Normally, unless the Toss tried to do some kind of 2 gate build, he will always be able to get a stalker out in time to kill your probe before you can get anywhere close to completing your warpgate tech, which means no proxy pylons in his main.
All the times you actually pulled this off is when the other toss tried to go 2 zealots or a sentry which is pretty unorthodox.
In another replay, one of the tosses doesn't even bother building a stalker period, and opts to go 3-4 gates before a single unit.
You and other people are underestimating this build.
I actually lost to the OP earlier today and was completely puzzled at how effective/strong it was. I went normal build, getting a zealot, stalker, warp gate, then realized what he was doing. At this point I added two gates as soon as possible but I still couldn't stop it.
It's a very solid build, and one particular reason is that people don't save up chrono boost because they don't read the strategy fast enough.
At least I feel better about losing to this though. I was like wtf just happened!
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United States10774 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:31 Zidane wrote:
This strat doesn't work period, with one stalker after a zealot.
It works pretty damn well.
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How can a strategy in a mirror match be overpowered???
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I don't know about other Toss players out there but by the six minute mark I usually have about 5-6 units and 3 gates up. Even if that wasn't enough to kill your three pylons before the gates came up, it would easily be enough to take out the first 4 units you summoned. After that your rush is shut down and you just wasted 300 on Pylons that are as good as dead.
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Perhaps no one here realizes I am a #1 ranked diamond player, or perhaps everyone gets up in arms about the word "overpowered" and seeks to discredit anything that claims to be so without taking the time to think carefully about the build. Yes, 2 gate builds shut this down and force me to change my strategy. Yes I have relatively low APM in the early game, but I do not pad it like so many players feel is necessary. Yes, a stalker can be built to kill the scout probe in time (but few people do this, and even if they do, I send another and warp in just outside their ramp).
I don't think this strategy is unbeatable and I don't think I am the best Protoss player out there, but when I win 12 games in a row with the exact same build and little effort, I start wondering if what I'm doing is really fair.
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United States10774 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:36 Kultcher wrote:
I don't know about other Toss players out there but by the six minute mark I usually have about 5-6 units and 3 gates up. Even if that wasn't enough to kill your three pylons before the gates came up, it would easily be enough to take out the first 4 units you summoned. After that your rush is shut down and you just wasted 300 on Pylons that are as good as dead.
I doubt that you actually watched the replays but this rush comes when you have about 4-5 units and 3 gates JUST finished. Once he gets a pylon up it's impossible to match his production speed with four gates + saved-up chrono boost.
EDIT: I mean I'm sure I can figure out a counter to this build but I am just saying it's very, very effective. I don't know why you guys are so quick to discredit it. I got owned by it and I am not a noob either (#1 ranked Diamond as well).
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I watched two of the replays, and in both the defending player built like 2 units by the time that the first warp-in came. I could see how this would catch you off guard if you hadn't seen it before, but if you have 4-5 units and see him start to build some pylons in your base, then you can absolutely rape the units he's warping in as they warp in, especially if you pull probes off the line to help.
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United States10774 Posts
Lol these guys are way too good for this build I suppose
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If you have been building units then you do not have 4 gates but 2. At that point his warp in units only need to survive until the 1st warp gate reset and he will outnumber you from that point.
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I want to see if this can work against Terran or Zerg. OP maybe, you want to test it?
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On May 28 2010 15:44 OneOther wrote:
Lol these guys are way too good for this build I suppose
Thank you for being a voice of reason.
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On May 28 2010 15:45 -Archangel- wrote:
I want to see if this can work against Terran or Zerg. OP maybe, you want to test it?
Doesn't work. Zerglings can chase your probe down easily on creep and destroy pylons quickly. Terran has way too many options for preventing this. I've only done it successfully against a terran once, it was by sheer luck that he didn't find my probe hiding in his base and had starting making vikings.
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I'm not suggesting that the build is bad, I just don't think it's overpowered. What it is is *new* and I could easily see how it would catch most players (myself included) off guard. If/when it becomes popular I think it will be fairly easy to counter as long as you keep your head.
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I don't understand why nobody is killing your probe before you put any pylons up, getting a stalker just after core and kill the scouting probe isn't the most standard thing in the world ?
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I mean the ONLY thing that could warn you someone is going to be doing this is if you see no units in the other player base.
But that could be fixed as well. After the 1st cyber build a stalker to kill the probe and then continue with the build and send that stalker to attack once pylons are building.
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On May 28 2010 15:56 Dawme wrote:
I don't understand why nobody is killing your probe before you put any pylons up, getting a stalker just after core and kill the scouting probe isn't the most standard thing in the world ?
This.
The only time your build worked after he killed your scouting probe was when you sent another one and LUCKILY snuck it back into his main, most other people would have a stalker blocking his choke.
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1 Stalker to kill scouting probe + 1 Zealot to block the choke will prevent this build from "going off" at the necessary timing.
I build 1 stalker and 1 zealot to block my choke EVERY GAME against P or Z.
Against people who subscribe to the "P don't need to wall/choke" school of thought it will work. Yet another example why these people are very, very wrong.
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I guess a lot of people are discounting this because if you lose your probe then the push doesn't work.
But it's pretty easy to hide a probe or bait one of the units and then get a probe in. And also the fact that it's pretty hard to tell it's coming is cool.
All you can check for is that they are double chrono boosting warpgate research.
It'll make me paranoid about ramp blocking in pvp... that's for sure.
and lol at all these other people... 'I CAN KILL SCOUTING PROBES, YOUR STRAT IS FAIL...
you somehow think you're better than huk and attero?
If you knew it was coming, yeah you'd block the ramp. But this looks like so many other standard pvp builds.
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On May 28 2010 15:56 Dawme wrote:
I don't understand why nobody is killing your probe before you put any pylons up, getting a stalker just after core and kill the scouting probe isn't the most standard thing in the world ?
Kill it with what? Scouting probes make it into your main before you have anything but probes, and if you chase it with multiple probes it can still start pylons building without dying fast at all. I suppose you could (maybe) beat it by devoting a lot of probes to killing the pylons as they warp in, but proper execution by the offensive player is going to result in you devoting so many probes to that that you'd be behind economically by the time you beat the rush off, and then its just a normal game.
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On May 28 2010 16:19 Uranium wrote:
1 Stalker to kill scouting probe + 1 Zealot to block the choke will prevent this build from "going off" at the necessary timing.
I build 1 stalker and 1 zealot to block my choke EVERY GAME against P or Z.
Against people who subscribe to the "P don't need to wall/choke" school of thought it will work. Yet another example why these people are very, very wrong.
I build 4 pylons outside your base and warp in my second set of units to high ground, your wall is useless. I thinkI did this a few times in the replay pack. This is a plan B, but is still ridiculously effective, even after losing 100-200 minerals on lost pylons.
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Well this look like a rafined 4 Warp-Gate. And this is strong no doubt about it but not impossible.
I have to point out a few notes, I saw 5 replays : Huk, Oneother, Templer 3, Bliss and Indy.
Let's forget those but Oneother and Indy.
Oneother had more chance than the others to beat it. He was able to kill the scout, and avoid the pylons in mineral line,. Now there are some errors still, the ramp is not blocked anymore (but that was expected due to the distraction) and there are still down times on the gateway. What is interesting though is you really need those zealots, there was too much stalkers taken out by Zealots. But let's see indy's...
Now we can see something interesting, both you and indy get the core before the 2nd Pylon so he is able to be close to you in the Warp race. After that it is a mirror 4Gate vs 3Gate with micro and stuff and it holds up.
What I can come up with is get Core before 2Pylon, chrono WG, get stalker fast to kill scout. Keep scout in base since he doesn't make units I really don't understand why all these players backed the scout of. See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro.
Definitely strong as a refined 4Gate but not unbeatable I think, might be a new cheese for PvP that players have to incorporate though.
Edit : I think I'll try things with the build order trainer and compare the time I have things to those you get yours in the replays.
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On May 28 2010 16:31 rezoacken wrote:
Well this look like a rafined 4 Warp-Gate. And this is strong no doubt about it but not impossible.
I have to point out a few notes, I saw 5 replays : Huk, Oneother, Templer 3, Bliss and Indy.
Let's forget those but Oneother and Indy.
Oneother had more chance than the others to beat it. He was able to kill the scout, and avoid the pylons in mineral line,. Now there are some errors still, the ramp is not blocked anymore (but that was expected due to the distraction) and there are still down times on the gateway. What is interesting though is you really need those zealots, there was too much stalkers taken out by Zealots. But let's see indy's...
Now we can see something interesting, both you and indy get the core before the 2nd Pylon so he is able to be close to you in the Warp race. After that it is a mirror 4Gate vs 3Gate with micro and stuff and it holds up.
What I can come up with is get Core before 2Pylon, chrono WG, get stalker fast to kill scout. Keep scout in base since he doesn't make units I really don't understand why all these players backed the scout of. See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro.
Definitely strong as a refined 4Gate but not unbeatable I think, might be a new cheese for PvP that players have to incorporate though.
I want to give you a prize.
Quality post!! I can tell you put a lot of thought into it.
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Appreciated.
I will play with the build-trainer thingy tommorow to see timings for this build and counters I can come up with.
In fact im mainly thinking about what are the pros and cons of going Core before 2nd Pylon in the overall matchups. The main thing seems that you have to skip your first Zealot.
But then you can make your 2nd Gaz later, heavy stalkers/zealots dont need a quick 2nd Gaz if you have to defend against a heavy gate early agression.
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I think it's very strong, I remember you beating me a few times with it. I think the game I won I chrono'd my first few zealots and managed to get some probe kills to put you back, while going 4 gate myself to hold the warps at home.
On May 28 2010 16:31 rezoacken wrote:
See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro.
He's warping into your probe line, he only needs to kill 1 - 2 probes with each zealot (very easy to do) to be ahead at this point. Also he has 1 gas so is ahead of minerals (assuming you took a 2nd gas), if you didn't take a 2nd gas you might aswell just mirror what he is doing and make a pylon or 2 in his mineral line.
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[B]
He's warping into your probe line, he only needs to kill 1 - 2 probes with each zealot (very easy to do) to be ahead at this point. Also he has 1 gas so is ahead of minerals (assuming you took a 2nd gas), if you didn't take a 2nd gas you might aswell just mirror what he is doing and make a pylon or 2 in his mineral line.
Like I said Pylon in meneral line should be avoided the way oneother and indy did. A quick stalker with a zealot are enough dont forget he is making 0 units during that time you should be able to kill the pylons in mineral line (after killing the probe).
Then he goes to plan-B and it is a remake of Indy game micro intensive with good unit making decisions.
All the game that were not even close were lost due to scout probe alive in base for 6minutes and from there yeah it's over, but people will learn a 4 gate with no units and a still wandering probe in your base is trouble and quickly will learn how to respond.
Edit : and yeah you might consider building a pre-emptive proxy pylon to send a zealot or two to distract him by having to send more units than a zealots to kill it (less in your base) otherwise he loses too many probes.
You might also consider trying out a forge when you see 4 gates (2-3Gate + 1Forge) and build good canons (1 in his base ?) (have to test it mineral wise).
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On May 28 2010 15:35 Skyro wrote:
How can a strategy in a mirror match be overpowered???
ALL said ... please ok? Let's close this topic before someone even consider nerfing P again ... i have a record of 12-3 in PvP just because i rush 2-3 gate against 1 gate - core and always run over my opponent zeal - stalker build because they just don't adjust their build and production accordingly and think they can defend early game with less units. Nevertheless i don't think my start is overpowered or i am good .. i just think unusual build catch most of the players unprepared. When i see proxy or staff like that i always try to counter with cannon rush and very often i am succesfull because opponents just dont have anything in their own base to defend and have bad eco because of early scout/rush. So they take off probes from mining, to defend cannon rush and at this point their eco is completely fucked up -> gg
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If any good diamond protoss players are keen i'd like to drill playing against this build using standard 1 base core builds, without varying from the standard build until you've scouted it. If anyone is interested pm me here on teamliquid, will write up results of our drills here too.
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I skimmed over 7 or so of your replays but focused in on your game vs oneother since it seems to be getting the most attention.
The first think I thought of was Tester's one chrono boost on nexus opening and he saves the rest for other purposes (units, warpgate up, etc.) When I first saw him use this opening in his Gosucoaching tournament replays I was somewhat confused since the majority of players I have seen on euro and us chrono nexus exclusively in the early game. Since he is considered the top toss in Korea, I copied it. The saved chrono is absolutely pivotal in dealing with 3gateway no gas zealot rushes and now I think it has another great purpose here.
I've been testing timings against the game vs oneother and its still freaking annoying to deal with but manageable. The stalker and zealot are in time to kill probe and pylons before the minerals come in to build them. The warpgate upgrade finishes almost exactly when your upgrade does. The last part of the build is what I am trying to figure out and that is timing my 3gateways to finish at the exact warpgate upgrade timing. If I know they are doing this build then I have the timing no problem. It then comes down to ramp defense micro.
build below. It's a simple variant to my standard opener.
9 pylon
10 chrono nexus and save chronos from now on
12 Gateway
13 Gas
15 Pylon
16 Core
17 Chronoed Zealot
21 Stalker and warpgate chrono both
- Stalker will be built at 4:15 which is when you plop down your first pylon
24 2 gateways <-- Start of variation after seeing the 4gateway no unit build
25 Pylon
25 2nd gas
26 4th Gate
26 Sentry chrono it
Constantly chrono warpgate upgrade (I believe its 3 times in a row)
YOur warpgate up finishes at about 5:20 and this build finishes it at 5:30. That's about 5 second in real time so it will be 1zeal 1 stalker 1 sentry to hold for those 5 seconds against the first warp in round below the ramp. Then you'll get 3 more units and should be in a good situation.
Freaking annoying solution off of the standard build but in theory the timings work out just fine. Definitely not something I can make up on the fly.
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I do remember losing to Tozar doing this twice (im like 4-2 against him in beta so far, til he found this strat) and it was the first time I ever seen it.. It was surprising, and the 2nd game i ALMOST stopped it but I lost too many probes defending, so I had to concede..
I think its a very strong strat, but I dont think its "overpowered".. But Protoss players will have to learn to adapt against it, because it will be the new "standard" for PvP unfortunately. No more 15 gate macro builds, because you will get run over easy. I suppose you could try a forge cannon fast expo vs this if you knew it was coming, as long as you kill his scouting probe before it makes any pylons (which is hard without a stalker).. but yea, Basically I just go 11 gate everygame now and make sure to scout early enough to see if he is chrono boosting his core super early.
Its very strong, but not overpowered because it can be stopped if you know its coming. Get your warp gate out just as fast, and throw up a robo to get one or two immortals out, and you stop it easily.
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white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time
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On May 28 2010 20:09 lolreaper wrote:
white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time
it already takes a year.. its fine how it is, Protosses are just gonna have to learn to adapt.
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HuK (yes the real one) also lost to this warpgate in-base pylon strat in the recent vT Beta Sendoff tourney against Capoch, game 2 on Lost Temple.
Capoch hid a probe in HuKs base, and even though he choked his ramp, his sentry found the probe too late and it was still able to build 2 pylon in HuKs base, and upon their completion, the warp-in stream commenced, without HuK being able to do much about it (even had Immortals out.
Defintely a very strong opening that even challenges pros.
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I only watched the one vs HuK. I don't know how on EARTH you consider it difficult to spot. You don't make a Stalker or Sentry to kill his Probe, so he just has to match your buildings 1 for 1 and he's fine. If you're a defensive early-game player like me, that's what you'll do, anyway.
Plus, any early Zealot pressure is going to shut this thing down hardcore.
2-gate pressure is a great opening for PvP. You really, really screw up people who like to macro.
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This is something Blizzard is aware of.
I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has a problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways.
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On May 28 2010 20:36 ChickenLips wrote:
This is something Blizzard is aware of.
I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways.
This is a problem? What's he gonna do, turn Immortals into Zealot-killers, too? That's the only reason you have to match Gateways. Its very hard to mass Stalkers or Sentries (enough to frighten off an overwhelming number of Zealots, anyway), when someone is pumping constant Zealots in your face and the best anti-Zealot doesn't come along until Tier 3 (Collossus).
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On May 28 2010 20:41 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 20:36 ChickenLips wrote:
This is something Blizzard is aware of.
I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways. This is a problem? What's he gonna do, turn Immortals into Zealot-killers, too? That's the only reason you have to match Gateways. Its very hard to mass Stalkers or Sentries (enough to frighten off an overwhelming number of Zealots, anyway), when someone is pumping constant Zealots in your face and the best anti-Zealot doesn't come along until Tier 3 (Collossus).
According to DB it's something they want to work on.
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Do you have a link?
I just don't know what they could do besides lowering the build-time and/or cost of Stalkers or Sentries...which has all kinds of ramifications.
Maybe lower Cyber Core build time (and increase Warp Gate time again)? I dunno. A Zealot blob is just a powerhouse in an open field compared to a mixed force of Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries. Building choke points and using Force Field on ramps are the only real counters until later on.
Make Guardian Shield affect all damage and lower the energy cost?
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On May 28 2010 20:09 lolreaper wrote:
white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time
I think it was Nazgul, not white-ra. Saw Nony losing to it on his stream vs AntiMage also. So yeah, it isn't "easy" to beat. Someone should just provide a replay of this strat being beaten so as to avoid all these theoretical arguments.
If Blizzard wants to fix it, a quick fix would be to limit the number of chronoboosts active at one time per nexus. So for example, if you have only one nexus you can only have 2 chronoboosts active.
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On May 28 2010 20:55 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 20:09 lolreaper wrote:
white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time I think it was Nazgul, not white-ra. Saw Nony losing to it on his stream vs AntiMage also. So yeah, it isn't "easy" to beat. Someone should just provide a replay of this strat being beaten so as to avoid all these theoretical arguments. If Blizzard wants to fix it, a quick fix would be to limit the number of chronoboosts active at one time per nexus. So for example, if you have only one nexus you can only have 2 chronoboosts active.
That kind of change would be as simple as putting a 5-10 second cooldown on the ability...which would suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
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bring back the reaver micro!
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Haha funny how people say that zealot blob is too strong vs P and yet too weak vs T and Z  though I aggree I think it all comes down to using stalkers optimal is a pain as it takes up much APM and it needs to confront the lots far from home base in order to avoid run by.
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I think Toss is just gonna have to adjust to this, with some proper scouting it can be countered, although it is hard.
Also feels cool to beat an unorthodox strategy for the first time *remembers killing off a cannon rush for the first time*
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I'm going to go ahead and point out that finding three replays displaying a strategy working does not make that strategy overpowered. Statistically, I can find three replays of any strategy working and then come to TL's strategy board to QQ my heart out rather than asking for advice without making stupid assumptions about balance.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 28 2010 20:36 ChickenLips wrote:
This is something Blizzard is aware of.
I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has a problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways.
PvP is the worst mirror matchup, that's for sure. It's pure zealot no gas spam, or cannon rush, or, 4 gateway. Very boring matchup.
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On May 28 2010 22:02 Kratisto wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and point out that finding three replays displaying a strategy working does not make that strategy overpowered. Statistically, I can find three replays of any strategy working and then come to TL's strategy board to QQ my heart out rather than asking for advice without making stupid assumptions about balance.
Maybe you should check the replay pack (of 12 replays) before making this kind of statements. You only shame yourself
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On May 28 2010 22:02 Kratisto wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and point out that finding three replays displaying a strategy working does not make that strategy overpowered. Statistically, I can find three replays of any strategy working and then come to TL's strategy board to QQ my heart out rather than asking for advice without making stupid assumptions about balance.
You god damn moron.
On May 28 2010 14:37 Tozar wrote:The following replay pack contains 12 games that are all top level Diamond PvP games, won by me consecutively without any PvP losses against other Diamond level players. Some of them are rematches with the same person who knows it is coming and cannot stop it. Only one of them is a game that I lost and it lasted an exhausting 45 minutes: Tozar's Overpowered 4 Warpgate Cheese
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Calgary25979 Posts
... It's strong but people don't expect it. It's like scouting a Forge in BW and laughing and then he cannons behind your minerals. Then people come to expect that's an option. It's a great all-in but it isn't overpowered.
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Like I've told everyone about it, it is overpowered if you just spend chronos on your nexus.
I.e. metagame says you should watch your opponent's chronoboosts as well as their scouting probe. I haven't lost to this before, and some of my friends have practiced with me enough to be able to beat me when I do this solidly.
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How do you counter a 2gate zealot rush with this? By the time you scout him, depending on the map, he can already have a 2nd gate on the way and you're stuck with no zealot in que and a cc.
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Very, very solid all-in, especially on 4-player maps where a 2 Gate Proxy is out of question.
Although it's going to catch most players by surprise I still think a Zealot - Stalker start or a fast Forge should shut it down.
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I saw the replays. I do think that Tozar out-macroed his opponents though, because he managed to shave off seconds off building, and chronoboosting his cybercore and those extra seconds help a lot. The probes can't do that much damage, and the protoss units are too strong.
Unfortunately, 2 gate rush rapes this, and if not, just 2 gate rally your units.
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I went 0-3 vs Tozar but the last game I defended the 4warpgates pretty well (probably cause it was Desert Oasis). I eventually lost the game cause of DTs. I'll post the replay later today.
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On May 29 2010 03:29 ScythedBlade wrote:
I saw the replays. I do think that Tozar out-macroed his opponents though, because he managed to shave off seconds off building, and chronoboosting his cybercore and those extra seconds help a lot. The probes can't do that much damage, and the protoss units are too strong.
Unfortunately, 2 gate rush rapes this, and if not, just 2 gate rally your units.
2 Gate will force a slight deviation in strategy. I will typically throw down a forge and make a zealot and one well place cannon to hold off the rush (if I scout it in time, the recent forge nerf makes this a bit difficult to pull off), then a stalker if his aggression persists. Most players will back off and stop producing units, which sets me up to use my strategy anyway.
2 Gate proxy will often end the game. (I have seen this done on Lost Temple, I was impressed. He was at 9, scouted the empty 12 position, and built at the south xel' naga tower, undetected. Then I scouted him last ;_; )
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Tozar I have watched 3 of your replays and will eventually get to the rest. I was wondering if you could direct me to a replay where someone tried a 2gate Zealot rush against you when you were doing this build? If not, have you experienced it yet? How do you adapt? What were the results?
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8748 Posts
This strat probably gets the most wins vs me out of any PvP strat. This and 2gate or 3gate zealot rush. My practice against those builds is so haphazard though because I almost never play customs and when I'm laddering I get to play vs them maybe once a day... Maybe sometime next week, if you're still confident in this build, we can play a bunch of customs?
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hmm I was overwhelmed after watching this replay. Come to think of it, this is a pretty strong strat that if u dont know u wont be able to fight it off. Tozar cleverly cut probe at 20, build only 1 gas, thats the reason he could get all those 4 gate and 3 pylons in the base. The reason why this is so deadly is the fact that his units are inside the base so he could deal economical damage while his econ is just fine. 2 gate zeal rush only work if the distance is close, if its too far, tozar has all the time in the world to make extra sentries and stalkers to deal with them and when the rush is over, tozar is on the move. This leads to 2 gate proxy short distance would work but will require intense micro (if tozar dont completely wall the choke with force and cannon).
I saw one earlier post that proposed a solution to this and I think I might want to try that out. And now thanks to Tozar, I have to defend this funky build almost every time I do PvP <.<
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Players are usually adverse to building cannons. That might negate it.
How about a wall-off + kill probe? I usually wall off because of fear of a 2-gate zealot rush ... it's only against terrans I don't wall off. So, shouldn't that stop your strat?
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the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
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On May 29 2010 03:53 roymarthyup wrote:
the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
There is no "choke" in this build. If I can't make pylons anywhere in your base I can make them just outside of your base, and THEN in your base. People talking about holding chokes are missing the point.
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On May 29 2010 03:53 roymarthyup wrote:
the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
If you have carefully read tozar's first post, watch the replays be4 posting <.<
And Tozar, if protoss get nerfed again, I will hate you 4ever >.<
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Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ...
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PvP is the worst mirror matchup, that's for sure. It's pure zealot no gas spam, or cannon rush, or, 4 gateway. Very boring matchup.
Every time I choose protoss and see that my rival is protoss I just sigh and asume that the game will be over in ten minutes.
I find it sad that there are virtually no macro games on ladders. Seems that the modo is cheese and/or all-in your way to the top. Also, It's funny how you read here about how players win by abusing a early all-in strategy. If you just win with a 4 gate, every time, in PvP, it actually means that 4 gate is probably the only strategy that you can resort to.
That's not stacraft that's spamming a strat that will work a X% of times and really settling for that.
Also is fun how when games go macro against P, it really shows how they really don't know how to deal with and manage large quantitys of units..
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On May 28 2010 15:38 Tozar wrote:
Yes, 2 gate builds shut this down and force me to change my strategy.
Yes, a stalker can be built to kill the scout probe in time .
I don't think this is strategy unbeatable
Good. You just answered your own question. Your strategy is not unbeatable.
Guess what?
Before the new ladder came out with diamond, I got to #2 platinum from gold (I stopped playing for a few days and never got to #1 rank) off of JUST 2-gate proxy rushes. I played about 50 games and won about 80% of them JUST doing douchebag 2-gate proxy rushes. And I owned so many people because I could micro zealots and perform a pretty good all-in cheese strategy. That doesn't mean it's broken or overpowered, because I know exactly how to stop it as well. And I certainly didn't make a thread about how good I am or about how broken the technique is.
Then I realized that I wanted to play past the five-minute mark, and learn how to do other strategies as well with Protoss, so I stopped doing 2-gate proxies.
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Just went from fresh into Diamond (around #13 w/ 30-19) to #1 Diamond in my division. Got 4 PvP in a row and decided to test this strategy and BOY.
They never check their base for my hidden probe (always survived, or maybe I'm just good at getting it in there)
They see my 4 warpgates and continue to tech.
They ragequit almost always (1 also called me "fu cking noob" .. lul)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yTQMJ.gif)
I will not continue to use this strategy, just ain't no fun. (I don't play only to win)
effective strat tho
edit: btw. this feels fun to just win every single game, but on the other side of the battlefield, that shit's fcking annoying
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On May 29 2010 04:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 15:38 Tozar wrote:
Yes, 2 gate builds shut this down and force me to change my strategy.
Yes, a stalker can be built to kill the scout probe in time .
I don't think this is strategy unbeatable Good. You just answered your own question. Your strategy is not unbeatable. Guess what? Before the new ladder came out with diamond, I got to #2 platinum from gold (I stopped playing for a few days and never got to #1 rank) off of JUST 2-gate proxy rushes. I played about 50 games and won about 80% of them JUST doing douchebag 2-gate proxy rushes. And I owned so many people because I could micro zealots and perform a pretty good all-in cheese strategy. That doesn't mean it's broken or overpowered, because I know exactly how to stop it as well. And I certainly didn't make a thread about how good I am or about how broken the technique is. Then I realized that I wanted to play past the five-minute mark, and learn how to do other strategies as well with Protoss, so I stopped doing 2-gate proxies.
ROFL, way to take my words out of context! If you are going to quote me, use the whole post. For the record this is a discussion not a question thread.
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On May 29 2010 04:04 ScythedBlade wrote:
Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ...
Plan B:
The first pylon is created while the backup probe makes its way to his base (I'll start sending him if I see the Gateway being chronoed after a cybernetics core is up). The next few pylons are created around the perimeter of his base leading up to the ramp, so each pylon has its field extended into the enemy base. The units created from the first pylon (preferrably 2 stalkers and a zealot) make their way up the ramp to get vision for the second set to warp in. Only catch is if there is a well-placed forcefield, but it is only temporary.
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Oh and I just wanted to express my gratitude towards Tozar, you're one of the few in these forums that keep the quality up by opening threads with quality strats, always supporting them with a good amount of replays against (semi-)professional SC2 players. I see your low post count as something speaking for you rather than against you (quality vs. quantity).
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I just tried this build against 2 gate.
4 warpgate all in totally destroys two gate zealots. I built my gates at the choke - saw 2 gates no gas in opponent's base - went oh crap built a few zealots from my gates to hold choke and as soon as warpgates kicked in, it was gg.
Not even close.
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On May 29 2010 04:30 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 04:04 ScythedBlade wrote:
Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ... Plan B: The first pylon is created while the backup probe makes its way to his base (I'll start sending him if I see the Gateway being chronoed after a cybernetics core is up). The next few pylons are created around the perimeter of his base leading up to the ramp, so each pylon has its field extended into the enemy base. The units created from the first pylon (preferrably 2 stalkers and a zealot) make their way up the ramp to get vision for the second set to warp in. Only catch is if there is a well-placed forcefield, but it is only temporary.
Ahh, so that's how you handle it ...
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I don't think this is overpowered yet. I have gotten through 4 of the replays and still have some more to go. What I'm wondering is how a more aggressive build that puts pressure on you would do against this. If there is a replay with that which I hadn't gotten to, then I apologize, I'll try to watch the rest later. It seems like a good strategy, I'll try it later today.
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United States10774 Posts
Tozar do you think we can practice a little bit today?
I want to learn how to deal with this more effectively
add me
[mod edit]
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On May 29 2010 04:43 Alou wrote:I don't think this is overpowered yet. I have gotten through 4 of the replays and still have some more to go. What I'm wondering is how a more aggressive build that puts pressure on you would do against this. If there is a replay with that which I hadn't gotten to, then I apologize, I'll try to watch the rest later. It seems like a good strategy, I'll try it later today.
I dunno if this is early enough pressure (first attack at around 5:30ish) - but here's a replay where there definitely was pressure.
Lots and lots of pressure. Pressure in the form of 10 zealots from 3 gateways at first attack.
I was even late (very very late) on my gate and cyber.
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So after some testing here are what I saw :
Tozar's timings are based on Oneother confrontation and are correct with +/- 1-2s sorry :
10Gate @ 1:33 (standard)
Core @ 2:43 (before 2nd Pylon)
2nd-3rdGate @ 3:54
4th Gate @4:12
Warp Gate tech @5:20
Warping units in your face with plan B @5:35
So in order to beat this with your own warpgates (will test later canons or more advanced units but I think only canons come soon enough) you have to :
- Send 10Gating probe to scout, see if this is this build or a 2gate zealots or whatever.
- Be close to his WG tech @5:20 and this requires you to get Core before 2nd Pylon, now if you are rushing for a fast stalker that is okay in my opinion to do it anyway without having scouted this. And you must chrono it at least 2 times. Kill probe with your fast stalker, add a zealot, this is crucial to stop his probes from building pylons in your mineral line. He will build them at your ramp, this is okay.
- When your probe reaches his base pay close attention to his gateway, if you see gateways build 2 more of your own. You must build them no more than 20s second from his 2nd-3rd. Stop building probes if you need these gateways. Resume probes later.
- Your tech should finish the same time your 2 gates finishes, since you have built aproximately 3 units (2Z and a stalker or 2stalkers and 1Z), your 3 gates should be enough to hold of your ramp or whats coming just above I know he's warping inside but since it is close to your units it is okay. You must focus fire with stalkers his warping in units in your base.
- Counter attack : you might consider building your 3rd or 4th pylon in his base and send 1 or 2 zealots if you can spare it. It will make him warp units in his base (less in yours) or he will lose a lot of probes (in both case you win).
Canons :
So i did some more testing to see if canons went soon enough.
What I did assume is that warp gate technologie is not as important if you go for a canon defense. So you can go 2nd pylon then core in my opinion. You have to make sure your constantly building unit with your 10Gate : Zealot, then stalker x2 chrno boost that. Be sure to still research warp gate and to scout with your 10gate probe. You should be in his base by the 3:00 mark depending on the map (before he goes crazy with gates). Continue your normal build, if you see 2nd and 3rd gate : cut probe production and pull probes out of 2nd gaz (if you built it), build a forge and a 2nd gateway with incoming minerals. Resume probe.
As soon as forge finishes add a canon. Keep building canons as feeling necessary and units from your 2 Gates. As I tested it i had my first canon at the 5:20 mark with 3 units which seems enough for the first wave. From there it is your 2Gate + canons v.s. his 4 Gates which seems ok.
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this stuff is superstrong, people who say its so easy to stop got no idea, gl when you face a top player, im not good but top of diamond league and struggle a lot to beat this oO
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Has anyone tried this one someone that actually makes an early Stalker? I mean, there's a clear MINUTE between when Player A gets a Stalker out to kill the Probe and player B gets Warp Gate tech done. Getting a Sentry or two out to completely fuck up your attack on your ramp isn't especially difficult after that, if they decide to just push your ramp after the Probe(s) get nuked.
Its basically the old proxy-pylon Warp Gate rush from yestermonth, only this time its ENTIRELY possible to kill the Probe(s) before they can drop Pylons in your mineral line. It was downright impossible before they added 80 seconds to the research time.
I can't honestly believe I'm alone in being a guy that *@&#ing hates having enemy workers running around his base.
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Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
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On May 29 2010 05:50 Bibdy wrote:
Has anyone tried this one someone that actually makes an early Stalker? I mean, there's a clear MINUTE between when Player A gets a Stalker out to kill the Probe and player B gets Warp Gate tech done. Getting a Sentry or two out to completely fuck up your attack on your ramp isn't especially difficult after that, if they decide to just push your ramp after the Probe(s) get nuked.
Its basically the old proxy-pylon Warp Gate rush from yestermonth, only this time its ENTIRELY possible to kill the Probe(s) before they can drop Pylons in your mineral line. It was downright impossible before they added 80 seconds to the research time.
I can't honestly believe I'm alone in being a guy that *@&#ing hates having enemy workers running around his base.
Watched 3 reps but what I saw is he builds pylons early which requires probes to be pulled to kill the 2-3 pylons, so even if he loses the probe theres still 2-3 pylons warping into the opponents base. If he thinks he will lose the first probe he just sends another to warp pylons outside. Basically even if you stop the initial pylons you still had to pull probes to defend cause a stalker alone can't kill 2-3 pylons that fast. And after that u will have to deal with 4 WGs just warping units into/near your base on cooldown.
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On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
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If anybody has watched the Ace vs White-ra game in the 17173 world tournament, what else should he have done? He scouted the pylon, but Ace just made like 3-4 pylons in his base. If one finishes his opponent will have equal or more stalkers in your base, forcing you to attack those as opposed to the pylons. Maybe you have to send 3-4 probes to attack each pylon? How much behind will this put you?
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The bigger tragedy is that regardless of whether this attack is stopped or not, it forces both players to go mass gateways. Just because ZvZ is lame doesn't mean every other mirror match-up should follow the same route.
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Just tried this a couple of times. Stalkers do take a while to kill Pylons for sure. I lost my first Probe to a Stalker, ran a second one in and he had 3 by then. I plopped down 2 Pylons before it died and 3 Stalkers couldn't kill them both before one finished. Then I chucked down 4 Stalkers, killed his 3 and picked up momentum from there.
Second attempt, the guy had 2-3 early Zealots after an econ build (13-gate I think it was), which totally raped my attempted Pylons (had to make 4, just to get one up). I got some Stalkers in his base, but didn't have the room to cause much chaos with that many Zealots chasing them. I had to build a Sentry to hold off his follow-up attack and split his force in half just to have a chance. After that it went into Tier 2 territory.
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On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
Yes, I do. Considering none of these are particularly amazing or creative alterations and well within the skill of players of their caliber, I don't see why they didn't. If you tried this again, though, I bet they would.
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On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you?
Posting like that really makes people want to discuss things with you.
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United States42539 Posts
On May 29 2010 04:14 ChickenLips wrote:Just went from fresh into Diamond (around #13 w/ 30-19) to #1 Diamond in my division. Got 4 PvP in a row and decided to test this strategy and BOY. They never check their base for my hidden probe (always survived, or maybe I'm just good at getting it in there) They see my 4 warpgates and continue to tech. They ragequit almost always (1 also called me "fu cking noob" .. lul) I will not continue to use this strategy, just ain't no fun. (I don't play only to win) effective strat tho edit: btw. this feels fun to just win every single game, but on the other side of the battlefield, that shit's fcking annoying
Vast majority of Diamond players are awful. Good players won't let you pylon in their base. The strategy doesn't work and #1 Diamond doesn't change that.
Edit: That is to say that good players ensure their base is fully scouted and ensure pylons are around the edges for this kind of stuff. If scouted this build relies on hitting faster than the counterbuild to work, it's the chronoed warp gates that overwhelm the non chronoed ones without ramp or travel time that make it work. Without the proxy pylon in the main it lacks that tiny edge that slowly wears down a perfect counter.
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Okey
After watching you do this several times on your stream, and now also looking through the replays and reading yours and every other post in this thread I think we can draw a few conclusions:
This is far more powerfull than it should be. I mean
The reason this cheese is so powerful is because it doesn't require the player to cut any probes, it is simple to micro, it's easy to transition out of, and difficult to scout.
Only thing I disagree with there is that its very easy to scout isnt it? You dont even have a stalker in your own base to deny scouting.
With that being said the problem here imo is that you would have had to make adjustments BEFORE scouting the 4gates. Its a rock paper scissors build in that regard.
If he makes an earlie enough stalker he might have a chance att killing ur scouting probe before the pylons go down.
Which doesnt really make a diffrence since you can warp in right outside, and overpower them since they had to cut stuff for the earlie stalker
With that being said I totally agree with everything your post said, and I also liked how you came up with a well balanced solution to it. I suppose you had to since its our own race we're complaining about.
Earlier Gateway stalker with warp in cooldown remaining the same is an absolutely perfect solution and I especially like it because it will maybe make 12gating against terran viable again?
PS: I thought TL was a good place to post with alot of good feedback? Seems like most players in this thread are theorycrafting idiots who think they got 200apm?
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Pretty sure i beat this ^^*
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On May 29 2010 09:37 BigT wrote:
Pretty sure i beat this ^^*
to bad theres no good way to find out since you would know its coming if you played tozar because of this reason..
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On May 29 2010 08:42 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you? Yes, I do. Considering none of these are particularly amazing or creative alterations and well within the skill of players of their caliber, I don't see why they didn't. If you tried this again, though, I bet they would.
First of all, I apologize for the sarcasm. I am well aware of the fact that my opponents made mistakes, in fact, if they didn't they could have been able to hold off the rush. The issue is that some of these mistakes are incredibly easy to make without knowledge of the build and have disproportional consequences for making them. My argument is that this build is too powerful for the amount of skill it takes to pull off.
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This seems beatable, although if you don't go stalker first it might be a bit hard.
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On May 29 2010 09:37 BigT wrote:
Pretty sure i beat this ^^*
Bah, every time I've played you I miscounted your zealots. But now that I've ironed all the kinks out of the build, I'm sure I could take you.
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You don't have to cut stuff to get an early stalker, you just need to play like you would vs terran to defend against a reaper rush and you will have the stalker in time to kill the probe. However, then you need to hold the rush from the outstide but it seems way easier to handle than an inside warpin. But like I said, in my opinion PvP is already broken and totally boring.
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My god, do you know how long this strategy was out?
Why didn't you see this crop up everywhere like we saw with warpgate pylon strategies before warpgate was nerfed?
This strategy has been around for so long, and it's SO easily counterable. It just takes some THINKING.
You scout your opponent anyway, so just check the guy's energy on his nexus. do you see him saving up for warpgate? If so, save up for it yourself.
No nerf is necessary, maybe you guys should think harder/try harder before you say it's overpowered because you beat people with it. You beat people with it because they use cookie cutter strategies and don't react to what they see.
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I started using this build after seeing it on tozars stream and while i agree it's a very strong cheese i don't think it's unstoppable or overpowered since it's very easy to scout the player doing it. I've stopped it before by chrono boosting my warpgate tech after scouting him saving chronos or using his chronos on his cyber core and then going for 4 gates. I'm not sure if this would work if my opponents were better but this is how ive been dealing with it
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I watched 3 replays and although this good, it certianly seems beatable, if your opponent goes stalker first goodbye probe and its stopped
edit: Just watched huk replay I thought sentry first woud stop this but that wasnt even fast enough.. I think the only way to stop with you making a mistake would be stalker first and chronoed.
I think your right this may be a problem...
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-Game 1-
![[image loading]](http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4917/48194277.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/1204/13286406.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/5199/13698237.jpg)
-Game 2-
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1783/42542934.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2640/15190436.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7489/91001854.jpg)
-Game 3-
![[image loading]](http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/6748/60786997.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7962/12643640.jpg)
This is kinda harsh
(There is more convo in between I just wanted to show that it even works when someone is prepared so dont take it out of context)
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If you know its coming it is defitnaly stopable just go stalker first and chrono it out they guy who actually stopped it didnt even chrono out his staker. The problem in my opinion is if you dont do exactly that your screwed
I am going to try this on the ladder now
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I did this earlier without watching the replays, due to being frustrated with someone saying "GG" and not leaving (seriously, who does that?) in the little vcraft tournament... Unfortunately I didn't actually watch your replays, so I winged it. Even winging it, it seems pretty legitimately easy to pull off against someone that hasn't seen it done, or is being tech greedy.
Worked like a charm, without even micro'n zealots. I don't really know how this would be beaten once the backup probe gets there, an early stalker just won't do the trick. I got enough gas to get a sentry, or two stalkers just incase, but I noticed he did not have enough units for it to really matter.
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On May 29 2010 10:02 Tozar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 08:42 deth2munkies wrote:On May 29 2010 06:34 Tozar wrote:On May 29 2010 06:18 deth2munkies wrote:
Attero Replay: He mismacro'd a lot. He should have had Warp Gates and at least 3 gateways done long before the rush happened, and he left the scouting probe alive and failed @ early zealot pressure. He got a very delayed first gate as well, when he saw 10 gate and 2 gateways with a chrono boosted cyber core, he should have built more units. His fault.
Viralrush: Scouted 4gate, did not build units, did not pull probes off gas, did not kill scouting probe with his stalker. Should have tossed down another gate earlier and used gas probes to kill off the pylons while making more chrono boosted stalkers/sentires/zealots.
bliss: Replay is a joke. Stopped it at 4:38 when he had ~400 minerals and ~200 gas, a probe sitting in his base, nothing being constructed, and only 1 gate and cyber core.
You have it all figured out don't you? Yes, I do. Considering none of these are particularly amazing or creative alterations and well within the skill of players of their caliber, I don't see why they didn't. If you tried this again, though, I bet they would. First of all, I apologize for the sarcasm. I am well aware of the fact that my opponents made mistakes, in fact, if they didn't they could have been able to hold off the rush. The issue is that some of these mistakes are incredibly easy to make without knowledge of the build and have disproportional consequences for making them. My argument is that this build is too powerful for the amount of skill it takes to pull off.
It's a well-covered strategy called the 4 warp gate push. You tossing down pylons on the mineral line is the only alteration, but they could easily be in front of the base. You've really just turned a push into a 4 gate all-in which is really the proper terminology for this strat. I don't think the skill differential is so hard, it relies on you doing 3 things any diamond player should do:
1) Scout: Almost all of them saw the 4 warpgates yet did not alter their build.
2) Deny scouting: They left your scouting probe sitting in full view of their base the entire time.
3) Keep resources low: Especially when you do the early zealot pressure that several of them tried, while microing their zealots they stacked up huge quantities of minerals that could have gone towards more warpgates and units that would hold it off.
I frequently make the same mistakes those players do, so I can identify them straight away due to it being a flaw we commonly share. You have a very tight build order that is very powerful, but not invincible and would be held off by a player of your caliber easily.
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On May 28 2010 16:25 DuneBug wrote:
I guess a lot of people are discounting this because if you lose your probe then the push doesn't work.
But it's pretty easy to hide a probe or bait one of the units and then get a probe in. And also the fact that it's pretty hard to tell it's coming is cool.
All you can check for is that they are double chrono boosting warpgate research.
It'll make me paranoid about ramp blocking in pvp... that's for sure.
and lol at all these other people... 'I CAN KILL SCOUTING PROBES, YOUR STRAT IS FAIL...
you somehow think you're better than huk and attero?
If you knew it was coming, yeah you'd block the ramp. But this looks like so many other standard pvp builds.
It's easy to hide a probe if your opponent is brain dead, I'll give you that.
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how is this.. "tozar's" build.. this was out before warpgate nerf and after warpgate nerf... lol...
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Name is arbitrary. Saying "Tozar's" is just easier than saying,
"10 pylon
10 gate
13 gas
15 cyber..."
et cetera, et cetera.
I don't mean to claim credit for coming up with the strategy first, because I obviously didn't.
Just a way of saying "this is my preferred build order, here's a replay pack of me doing it 13 times."
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The build looks powerful if the opposing Protoss deviates from the standard opening, but if you stick with a stalker first opening, I don't see where the problem is. I watched the games versus Huk, OneOther, and Attero. Each player in these matches decided to do something other than making a stalker first. OneOther was close, with a zealot and then a stalker, but that late stalker allowed you to add those pylons in his base, which kept his units busy and away from his ramp. If you made a stalker first, you would kill the probe before any pylons were built, if anything, you might be able to rush one pylon down.
Also, all players were slow to react to you adding three gates at the same time. If I am in your base, and you're making no units, there is no excuse for not seeing three gateways immediately, and reacting by adding gateways of my own. Like I said this looks powerful if they deviate from the regular build, but if they play standard I see you being at a disadvantage trying to do this.
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I believe the reason this build is so strong is that the units warp in into the mineral line of your opponent. Now he has disrupted mining and less warp gates which means he's pretty much screwed the longer the game goes on.
@Tozar I am interested in seeing what would happen if your opponent also did the same 4 warpgate proxy rush. Do you warp into your own base or start a base race?
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Couldn't you just block your ramp with the first pylon instead of a cyber core to completely shut this down?
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Funny how this build you learned a korean was only beaten by a guy who claims to play on the asia server. He was probably the only person you faced who had acctual practice vs this build.
Also a question about that templar guy you played 3 times were those all consecutive or were there breaks imbetween where you played other people? Just asking because if it was 3 times in a row thats just hilarious.
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Well it only works for now because the game is still new. I guess this works for "standard opening" which is 1 gate 1 cyber, but then again, what if because of this the new "standard" becomes getting 2 gates first? I can only assume this "4 gate in ennemy base" will easily be countered now that everyone is aware of it.
how about if you scout it right at beginning you start attacking ennemy/harrass? I watched a few replays, and when everyone scouted Tozar, none decided to attack or do anything. You can send your first zealot and first stalker to tozar's base, and even a probe, giving you advantage right there (tozar will have to proxy 2 units in his own base, therefore can only proxy 2 in your own base. Then you do the same as him put pylons and warp right in his base. this then becomes base trade, but you have advantage because you attacked first.
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I thought cannons fixed stuff =X. But no one likes to use cannons ...
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On May 29 2010 15:22 ScythedBlade wrote:
I thought cannons fixed stuff =X. But no one likes to use cannons ...
And they still got nerfed...poor cannons...
On topic - cannons will not help against this. Units can move and attack places where there aren't any cannons. Cannons cannot move and attack places where there aren't any units D:
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i dont understand how this is a problem
1) you wall off your ramp
2) you kill all pylons in your base before his warp gate finishes
3) he is limited to attacking only your choke and warping in units only near your choke if he build a pylon close to your choke and wants to warp units right above your ramp...
4) if he warps units right above your choke, kill them while they warp in?
damn ok ive watched the replay. you build a bunch of pylons before your enemys stalker can finish
it does seem very very powerful. damn. i dunno much you can do to battle this strategy
i bet fast 2gate zealot rush would probably get lots in your base attacking you before the strategy could pay off
but who wants to do lame 2gate rushes every game...
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On May 29 2010 14:37 Antiochus wrote:
Funny how this build you learned a korean was only beaten by a guy who claims to play on the asia server. He was probably the only person you faced who had acctual practice vs this build.
Also a question about that templar guy you played 3 times were those all consecutive or were there breaks imbetween where you played other people? Just asking because if it was 3 times in a row thats just hilarious.
The poor guy indeed played me 3 times in a row - while I was streaming. I kinda felt bad for him.
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That strategy is quite powerfull lol.
There can't be really any imbalance since it's a mirror match and thus you should be able to do the same thing to the opponent.
But U can see the strong part of the strategy is of course the instant warp ins at their mineral lines which forces opponents to defend their naturals while their probes are not mining at all or gets destroyed. Which eventually was the cause of everyone losing (except 1) because of their resources being depleted.
Have not seen the game in which u lost but LUCKILY I do not play on US servers vs you Tozar :D
But reading the comments the only counterpush would be if you scouted the Protoss is building 4 warpgates you have to push before either a) his Pylons finishes in his main or b) while the warpgate is researching.
This isn't a lot of time from my perspective and makes it so powerfull.
Because you have to 2gate zealot rush him if you want to make sure he can't do this strategy on you.
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I watched a replay and was like "wow i need to try this". i agree, i literally just did this build and i messed up a bit and still didn't even need to micro very much. i just won. i am rank 7 in my platinum league. this build is good! i have like 4 easy wins from this build.
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In PvP Protoss is totally OP. Protoss should be nerfed so that Protoss can fare better against Protoss.
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On May 29 2010 20:15 SupremeMe wrote:
In PvP Protoss is totally OP. Protoss should be nerfed so that Protoss can fare better against Protoss.
Wow you're funny.
It still holds true that this build is imbalanced, easy to pull off and hard to defend against.
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Does no one ever send their first zeal to enemy base to fuck up some probes? If he is not making units at all until the warp-in, this will basically win you the game right there...
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On May 30 2010 08:13 phexac wrote:
Does no one ever send their first zeal to enemy base to fuck up some probes? If he is not making units at all until the warp-in, this will basically win you the game right there...
He can just make zealot(s) and chronoboost if necessary. Thus with the pylons in the enemy's base he can warp it in after he defended his natural. Which makes this so strong.
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Only thing Ill say is this:
You warp in ur pylon at around 4:30
I get my first stalker at around 4:00
When u pop ur pylons, not only will ur probe be dead but in case its not, my 2nd stalker is already 75% made so I doubt ull get trough
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On May 30 2010 08:39 XDsCrazy wrote:
Only thing Ill say is this:
You warp in ur pylon at around 4:30
I get my first stalker at around 4:00
When u pop ur pylons, not only will ur probe be dead but in case its not, my 2nd stalker is already 75% made so I doubt ull get trough
Only thing Ill say is this:
Read the replies before posting as not to embaress yourself.
Has been talked about before, pylons in / out of base just delays death
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So basicly it come down to is a 4 Warpgate push OP ?
Then no its not
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On May 30 2010 09:06 XDsCrazy wrote:
So basicly it come down to is a 4 Warpgate push OP ?
Then no its not
This man is correct. This is not some super overpowered build, but just a 4gate push in disguise, which is easily countered.
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I think this build is more effective against high level players than lower level ones. Reason being that players in Gold/Plat rankings tend to make 3 zealots asap for no reason other than to just feel safe, whereas high level players are more likely to make the bare minimum they need to survive.
I mention it because I feel that a lot of lower ranked players will probably find this build attractive as an easy cheese (especially since low level players hate games that last longer than 10 minutes  ). If this build doesn't work out right away, it may be best to just remember it for later.
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"I think this build is more effective against high level players than lower level ones. Reason being that players in Gold/Plat rankings tend to make 3 zealots asap for no reason other than to just feel safe, whereas high level players are more likely to make the bare minimum they need to survive."
I agree. I would have a stalker and a tight choke by this time. I would use the stalker to kill that probe, for sure, and I would likely have a cannon if I sensed cheese. The cannon and the extra units are a lower level player's insurance against cheese and tricks. I know they set you back, but not as much as losing to cheese all the time
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Thanks a lot Tozar, now every single protoss in ladder does this, it's fucking boring, unplayable and totally fucked up , seriously can't you use your brain a little bit before you post this, or are you just totally stupid ?
User was banned for this post.
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On May 30 2010 12:59 ShiGu wrote:
Thanks a lot Tozar, now every single protoss in ladder does this, it's fucking boring, unplayable and totally fucked up , seriously can't you use your brain a little bit before you post this, or are you just totally stupid ?
Lol - better now then during some sorta high stakes match. At least we're learning how to deal with it.
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On May 30 2010 12:59 ShiGu wrote:
Thanks a lot Tozar, now every single protoss in ladder does this, it's fucking boring, unplayable and totally fucked up , seriously can't you use your brain a little bit before you post this, or are you just totally stupid ?
Oh the irony.
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On May 30 2010 12:59 ShiGu wrote:
Thanks a lot Tozar, now every single protoss in ladder does this, it's fucking boring, unplayable and totally fucked up , seriously can't you use your brain a little bit before you post this, or are you just totally stupid ?
Then I have done my job as a beta tester. The first step to fixing a problem is making it known.
EDIT: I assure you I thought carefully about this before I posted this topic. I knew the strategy would become more common, which is really the only way to prove it is a problem.
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Ragggeee
2 gate against this build allows your opponent to put pressure on you, keeping you from getting warp gates at the point you want. The strength of this build is you're fighting in your opponents base and probes are generally the casualties of zealots running to get into position. So, to prevent this build, pressure.
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Uh, how does this fare against PvP air builds?
I'm wondering because I typically get an early stalker to deny scouting of any stargates and get warp + 3 gates fast for a big zealot army.
It just seems like if I was to normally progress in my build I would have more gateways earlier and a good amount of zealots as well.
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On May 30 2010 13:13 selboN wrote:
Ragggeee
2 gate against this build allows your opponent to put pressure on you, keeping you from getting warp gates at the point you want. The strength of this build is you're fighting in your opponents base and probes are generally the casualties of zealots running to get into position. So, to prevent this build, pressure.
Yes, pressure definitely works, but as BigT has done to me a few times, one gateway is often enough to apply enough pressure to screw this build up. I have gotten a bit better at scouting and defending this type of thing.
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On May 30 2010 12:59 ShiGu wrote:
Thanks a lot Tozar, now every single protoss in ladder does this, it's fucking boring, unplayable and totally fucked up , seriously can't you use your brain a little bit before you post this, or are you just totally stupid ?
Thid guy tell the truth !
Its boring since I never lost to it yet and the guy just insta quit if u survive his push
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Great Post Tozar.
This kind of build is absurdly strong. Even a mere platinum player like myself can see the brutal genius of it.
You didn't even NEED the Pylons in the base, The 4 pylons being constructed are to ensure the opponent cannot prevent you from warping in, the Pylons happening to be in the mineral line just make it so easy for the econ harassment. During 2 of the Replays thusfar (watched 8 of 12) you've used a pylon outside of the base to warp; in order to break the front door wide open eventually bringing the fight to the probes, Excellence.
I'm glad to see this build in action and I'm looking forward to its inevitable demise.
I'd like to try an offensive Cannon Rush all-in on this. Has anyone tried that strat yet?
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like 90% of Diamond Protoss players are doing this now. lol
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hope this wont mean blizzard will nerf protoss again
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All the hating is hilarious :D
This strategy really works in any match-up.
On 2vs2 maps it's ridiculously strong because you can't get proxied (unless your opponent is a maphacker), on 1vs1 maps proper scouting will easily shut it down.
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i wouldnt call it overpowered and would cry if toss gets nerfed once again..
you dont even have to build in their base but it gives you 2 advantages:
diversion so they try to kill the pylons,
less area to move to mineral line
if they simply walled off with a 1zealot gap and killed your probe, youd have to warp outside of the base and they could still defend with stalkers/sentries
its strong but not overpowered, people will learn to deal with it when they come across it more
just like void rays lol.. (which got nerfed..)
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some protoss players tried to do this to me (and cannon rush).
I simply block my choke with ofcourse pylon/gateway and a probe. This way he can't enter your base (but you'll be a bit behind economically). And if he tries to build outside You'll have your base walled off and can defend easier + FF just in case.
Or in the most extreme measures make a forge and build cannons.
Out of 3 tries that my opponents tried this on me it failed 3 times by just blocking with your probe to prevent him going into your base.
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On May 30 2010 21:04 Knutzi wrote:
hope this wont mean blizzard will nerf protoss again
Well In P vs P Protoss wins 100% of the time, something obviously needs to be done here.
Nerf Please.
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this reminds me of baneling rushes zvz
every player and their little sister does them now
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I have mixed feelings about this one..
On one hand, i like it better then the mass stalkers/mass collosi that every pvp pretty much degenerated into. On the other it really isn't much better.
That said, I used it 7 times in a row just to see how effective it was and yea now I feel dirty.
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tozar do you want to talk a little about this strategy? im in the irc all day (but im from gerany, so "day" is a little different. i'd like to discuss with you a little about this. want to write me a pm about it? thx !
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On May 31 2010 08:18 Forsti.henning wrote:
tozar do you want to talk a little about this strategy? im in the irc all day (but im from gerany, so "day" is a little different. i'd like to discuss with you a little about this. want to write me a pm about it? thx !
If you have any questions I'll answer them here or if you PM me. Is there anything in particular about this strategy you want to talk about?
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Pretty funny to hear the word "overpowered" used when referring to a mirror match.
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Hey Tozar, I'm trying your build out right now and I've won every game vs all match ups so far except 1 terran game. So strong!!! You know this build is really just a 4 gate rush with focus on mineral line. I think people have not been doing this simply because we all tend to get too addicted to macro and using crono on probes. I noticed while doing your build that as I approach finishing my warp gat tech I am really nervous about wether my resources can fund all the pylons and units but it always works like a charm. I just needed your post to help me commit to the rush. I really like the fact that I only need one gas. I'm used to constantly being gas starved as P and its a sweet change of pace to often have extra gas on just one assimilator.
If you want a cheesy rush build that is similar to this vs zerg check out the post I made a few weeks ago about cannon/zealot rushes a month or so ago.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122289
Keep in mind the replays are not polished but you can get a general idea of how it works. It really shines to punish a FE zerg player and I still ocasionally use it against an extreemly heavy macro player. I have since refined it to do a sweet transition into void ray if I the player defends well and manages to start making roaches. At this point he is only running off one gas and half minerals because the cannons are denying. You just have to know when to stop making zeals and cannons and start teching. Also with this cheese you are guaranteed to get your pylon down with your scout unless your oponent rushes as well!
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On May 31 2010 11:53 makopluxx wrote:
Pretty funny to hear the word "overpowered" used when referring to a mirror match.
Tired of people saying that, please use your heads just for a moment and stop being so close minded. Yes a build can be overpowered in a mirror. An extreme example would be a build that has no counters (other than doing same thing yourself) and everyone is forced to use. You don't want those overpowered builds in a mirror because you will have no variety. Most people hate PvP as is..
Anywho thanks for heads up on this (though most PvP opponents rush z's vs me.. still I'll have to check it out too)
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with any scouting, or an early stalker, this can be negated fairly easily.
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On May 31 2010 14:13 BigDates wrote:
with any scouting, or an early stalker, this can be negated fairly easily.
/facepalm
it's like a giant bird shitting on a rock in the hot sun
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On May 31 2010 13:41 iokke wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 11:53 makopluxx wrote:
Pretty funny to hear the word "overpowered" used when referring to a mirror match. Tired of people saying that, please use your heads just for a moment and stop being so close minded. Yes a build can be overpowered in a mirror. An extreme example would be a build that has no counters (other than doing same thing yourself) and everyone is forced to use. You don't want those overpowered builds in a mirror because you will have no variety. Most people hate PvP as is.. Anywho thanks for heads up on this (though most PvP opponents rush z's vs me.. still I'll have to check it out too)
Agreed, what people are poking fun at is the statement that a race is imbalanced, which would make no sense in a mirror match-up. There is nothing funny about an overpowered build in a mirror matchup.
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I have tried this within my Platinum division and I had a lot of success with it, though I do believe that part of what makes this build so powerful is that it is relatively new and catches the opponent by surprise. This is not overpowered by any means and another nerf to protoss because of this strat is uncalled for. I have been countered while using this strat and proper scouting is key, when my opponent saw my 3 warpgates getting built they immediately went 2 gate rush and teched to robo, and chrono the robo constantly. Once he got the first immortal out he had a much easier time dealing with any gateway unit that gets warped in.
There you go, its a mirror match, the counter doesnt involve doing the same thing so i think by definition its not overpowered cheese, and there are counters out there.
There is no dispute as to how powerful this is at this point in time, but as more players get exposed to it and practice the counter this build will fade just like all the other non-standard builds out there.
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OP has been updated with replays of this build against heavy early aggression.
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On May 31 2010 15:56 Scorpius2501 wrote:
I have tried this within my Platinum division and I had a lot of success with it, though I do believe that part of what makes this build so powerful is that it is relatively new and catches the opponent by surprise. This is not overpowered by any means and another nerf to protoss because of this strat is uncalled for. I have been countered while using this strat and proper scouting is key, when my opponent saw my 3 warpgates getting built they immediately went 2 gate rush and teched to robo, and chrono the robo constantly. Once he got the first immortal out he had a much easier time dealing with any gateway unit that gets warped in.
There you go, its a mirror match, the counter doesnt involve doing the same thing so i think by definition its not overpowered cheese, and there are counters out there.
There is no dispute as to how powerful this is at this point in time, but as more players get exposed to it and practice the counter this build will fade just like all the other non-standard builds out there.
Everytime my opponent has teched past cybernetics when I am doing this, they have lost. Perhaps you took too long to attack?
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I had read this post a few days ago and found it interesting.
Ironically, some guy tried to 4 pylon proxy me right by the mineral line. I already knew what was up, and was able to beat it because i had read this post. I'm sure he did something wrong, but it was easier to stop once i saw it was clearly being attempted. i guess the 4 make it slower to stop, but just knowing of this build makes it much weaker in my eyes. I think people see it as being powerful right now because it's so new to everyone--most dont know it exists. even a proxy outside is seemingly nothing more than holding off attacks and pushing until the pylons are down.
Me: "TL forums?"
Him: "ya..."
Me:"Might work against those who don't know the tell-tale 4 pylon warning signs. LoL."
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Nearly everyone I've played that defended themselves against this build easily didn't speak English...
What does that tell you about the Asian server? They probably figured this out months ago (I'm talking post warpgate nerf).
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On May 31 2010 17:21 Tozar wrote:
Nearly everyone I've played that defended themselves against this build easily didn't speak English...
What does that tell you about the Asian server? They probably figured this out months ago (I'm talking post warpgate nerf).
What did they end up doing? :p
Also, how does a 4 gate response (so the defender's 4 gates would be coming out slower than the aggressor's) deal with this rush? Obviously, the warp will be a little slower, but assuming that the defender can get the in-base pylons down, it seems that it should be manageable to hold the ramp/deal with any stray warp-ins above the ramp. I don't have a Protoss practice partner to play with, so I can't test this out myself.
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This is me beating it with my mass hallucinate build. At the time I hadn't heard of the 4 warpate proxy pylon strat when I did this fight.
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On May 31 2010 21:27 ViruX wrote:This is me beating it with my mass hallucinate build. At the time I hadn't heard of the 4 warpate proxy pylon strat when I did this fight.
Killing that first probe with your Sentry delayed him a lot. Had he built the pylons earlier, you'd have been in trouble imo.
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LOL Tozar thanks for posting this. I watched 13 of the replays!
Epic quote:
you are going to get cheesed
you probably won't like it
but there isn't much you can do
LOL, after seeing this for the 4th time or so, I just chuckle so hard.
The battle with indy is epic :p
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I don't buy that it's 'overpowered.' Against a standard toss opening (13-gate, 1 zealot into stalkers or stalkers/immortals), your attack has a couple benefits over a typical push:
(1) proxy eliminates time to travel across map and defender's advantage at ramp, and
(2) you cut probes to squeeze out a couple extra units.
but it has a few disadvantages as well:
(1) you have to dump a couple hundred extra minerals in proxy pylons which offsets the probe cutting to some degree,
(2) you warp in at a vulnerable position, and
(3) any units you build prior to warpgate tech still have to walk across map and up ramp, so your force is somewhat split.
I just don't see this working well against a protoss player who's building stalkers responsibly. It punishes players who get greedy and rely to heavily on the ramp/sentry defense, but I don't see the probe cutting giving enough of a temporary production boost to KO standard stalker plays.
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I've watched you do this build many times on your live streams and it looks like you have it down to quite a science. Rather than debating whether or not this is overpowered, I think we should try to find valid counters or proposed solutions. Let me preface my response by saying that I am not a highly skilled player of the game, but that I've tried to think about it for some time before responding.
I'm curious if you have had any opponents respond simply by building the same number of gates and matching units? It would seem that without having to build so many pylons that they should get an easy lead this way. Since they are the same race, there is nothing that you can do that they can't, right? If they are doing it inside their own base, it would seem that they have the advantage in the situation. This leads to the inevitable, sad conclusion that Protoss can only be played in one way, though. (Mass gates/units, or die.)
Another counter that I would like to see tried is a forge upon scouting the build, and cannons near the pylons. Your units should be vulnerable during the warp, which has to be near the pylons, and they should be able to build at a sufficient amount of them at a cost:cost ratio to handle the units coming out. This does raise a question of how the opponent will fair in the later game, though, if you transition.
Finally, a noob idea that I thought of to "balance" this is as follow: Modify pylons to be more like a Zerg creep. Pylons built within a certain radius of a Nexus (or Pylons built within the field of THOSE Pylons) receive full HP. Like creep, you could expand these full Pylons gradually outward. However, you maintain the ability to build Pylons anywhere on the map that you like. Any Pylons created outside of the Nexus-provided network, though, will receive an amount of HP that makes them much easier to destroy. This would provide an incentive to Protoss players to hide their proxy builds, and to be unable to "cheese" them as easily by building them blatantly at a players mineral line and abusing the crap out of them.
Let me know what any of you think!
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I would imagine one of the replays in that pack are against me, since Tozar did this build against me a few days ago, I lost to it.
First time I'd seen such a thing since the old days when Warp Gate was only sixty seconds. I did notice one key element after the fact. He gateway'd on 10, giving him a fast core and then boosted that research really quickly. He also puts down three gates almost at an identical time. If you scout either the 10 gate into core, or the way he throws down three more gateways so quickly, you can probably scout this...
I scouted Tozar super late. Last position I checked on Kulas Ravine...
I think this strategy wins by the opponent being caught completely off guard. People have really let down their guard when it comes to proxy warp-in in PvP once the warp-gate research time was nerfed.
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Sly, it shouldn't be hard to beat at all. Gate on 13, core as soon as gate finishes, zealot at 100 minerals, chronoboosted stalker when core finishes. Add 2 gateways or a gateway and a robo. You'll likely kill the probe, but if you don't, you'll still match his units.
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The build is very good, but overpowered? I don't know about that. I've lost to 4- gates in PvP, do I think it needs to be changed? Hmmm maybe a little
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I am amazed at the misconceptions people have about this build, especially in how it is weak. I see about one and a half people say "2 gate aggression." the rest say, "Any half brained protoss has a zealot/stalker to deal with the probes and the pylons. gtfo stfu."
One and a half people are right, this is weak against rushes. The rest of you need to observe more. Not only have I watched all these replays, I've used this build to GREEEAT effect.
People don't understand how much that initial probe ISN'T crucial to the build, by the time your research finishes the other toss player SHOULD have a stalker, Tozar has accounted for this. Sometimes this stalker takes out the initial probe, it happened to me, and I saw it happen to him. It doesn't set you back that much, it just means you won't be able to warp into the mineral line.
Most protoss make this mistake: they overcompensate for the probe/pylon and think if they can kill either they can stop the strat. What the protoss don't realize most of the time is what they really have to beat is 4 warpgates, not a probe and some pylons. Which is why I don't really think of this strat as cheesy at all, you can see it and still not counter it very easily or immediately. But back to the real point.
When the initial probe fails to pylon the mineral line at the correct time (And I'd say it does about 50% of the time) we just build pylons leading up to the base, with one pylon close enough to warp units up the cliff. Generally, they won't be able to stop you from pushing unless they have at LEAST 3 gates, once your at the top of the ramp you can now warp in units behind the choke (or just on top the cliff if they didn't block choke.)
I've never lost using this strat the limited number times I have used it, and I'm not even top 10 in diamond. I don't think it's overpowered just because the window for this strategy is so narrow, you leave yourself very vulnerable right up until you can hit. If the initial attack fails in the first attempted you will likely be out teched/resourced unless you did good damage to the econ before dying.
Strong strategy, you should make up more :D I can only copy Nony and whiteRa so much
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The korean player tester just used this build in the day[9] daily
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On July 22 2010 11:41 RandomBS wrote:
The korean player tester just used this build in the day[9] daily
slight change, he took guys off gas and went straight zealot, also he didnt 10pylon/gate (i think) so it was slightly different
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There allready is a current Thread about this Topic, no need to dig this one out.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/957/25314516.jpg)
