EPT[D] PvP 4 Warpgate Proxy Pylon Cheese Overpowered? - Page 3
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
The first think I thought of was Tester's one chrono boost on nexus opening and he saves the rest for other purposes (units, warpgate up, etc.) When I first saw him use this opening in his Gosucoaching tournament replays I was somewhat confused since the majority of players I have seen on euro and us chrono nexus exclusively in the early game. Since he is considered the top toss in Korea, I copied it. The saved chrono is absolutely pivotal in dealing with 3gateway no gas zealot rushes and now I think it has another great purpose here. I've been testing timings against the game vs oneother and its still freaking annoying to deal with but manageable. The stalker and zealot are in time to kill probe and pylons before the minerals come in to build them. The warpgate upgrade finishes almost exactly when your upgrade does. The last part of the build is what I am trying to figure out and that is timing my 3gateways to finish at the exact warpgate upgrade timing. If I know they are doing this build then I have the timing no problem. It then comes down to ramp defense micro. build below. It's a simple variant to my standard opener. 9 pylon 10 chrono nexus and save chronos from now on 12 Gateway 13 Gas 15 Pylon 16 Core 17 Chronoed Zealot 21 Stalker and warpgate chrono both - Stalker will be built at 4:15 which is when you plop down your first pylon 24 2 gateways <-- Start of variation after seeing the 4gateway no unit build 25 Pylon 25 2nd gas 26 4th Gate 26 Sentry chrono it Constantly chrono warpgate upgrade (I believe its 3 times in a row) YOur warpgate up finishes at about 5:20 and this build finishes it at 5:30. That's about 5 second in real time so it will be 1zeal 1 stalker 1 sentry to hold for those 5 seconds against the first warp in round below the ramp. Then you'll get 3 more units and should be in a good situation. Freaking annoying solution off of the standard build but in theory the timings work out just fine. Definitely not something I can make up on the fly. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I think its a very strong strat, but I dont think its "overpowered".. But Protoss players will have to learn to adapt against it, because it will be the new "standard" for PvP unfortunately. No more 15 gate macro builds, because you will get run over easy. I suppose you could try a forge cannon fast expo vs this if you knew it was coming, as long as you kill his scouting probe before it makes any pylons (which is hard without a stalker).. but yea, Basically I just go 11 gate everygame now and make sure to scout early enough to see if he is chrono boosting his core super early. Its very strong, but not overpowered because it can be stopped if you know its coming. Get your warp gate out just as fast, and throw up a robo to get one or two immortals out, and you stop it easily. | ||
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lolreaper
301 Posts
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:09 lolreaper wrote: white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time it already takes a year.. its fine how it is, Protosses are just gonna have to learn to adapt. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
Capoch hid a probe in HuKs base, and even though he choked his ramp, his sentry found the probe too late and it was still able to build 2 pylon in HuKs base, and upon their completion, the warp-in stream commenced, without HuK being able to do much about it (even had Immortals out. Defintely a very strong opening that even challenges pros. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Plus, any early Zealot pressure is going to shut this thing down hardcore. 2-gate pressure is a great opening for PvP. You really, really screw up people who like to macro. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has a problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:36 ChickenLips wrote: This is something Blizzard is aware of. I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways. This is a problem? What's he gonna do, turn Immortals into Zealot-killers, too? That's the only reason you have to match Gateways. Its very hard to mass Stalkers or Sentries (enough to frighten off an overwhelming number of Zealots, anyway), when someone is pumping constant Zealots in your face and the best anti-Zealot doesn't come along until Tier 3 (Collossus). | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:41 Bibdy wrote: This is a problem? What's he gonna do, turn Immortals into Zealot-killers, too? That's the only reason you have to match Gateways. Its very hard to mass Stalkers or Sentries (enough to frighten off an overwhelming number of Zealots, anyway), when someone is pumping constant Zealots in your face and the best anti-Zealot doesn't come along until Tier 3 (Collossus). According to DB it's something they want to work on. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
I just don't know what they could do besides lowering the build-time and/or cost of Stalkers or Sentries...which has all kinds of ramifications. Maybe lower Cyber Core build time (and increase Warp Gate time again)? I dunno. A Zealot blob is just a powerhouse in an open field compared to a mixed force of Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries. Building choke points and using Force Field on ramps are the only real counters until later on. Make Guardian Shield affect all damage and lower the energy cost? | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:09 lolreaper wrote: white-ra lost to this in world cup its definately a problem, think warp gate research should take more time I think it was Nazgul, not white-ra. Saw Nony losing to it on his stream vs AntiMage also. So yeah, it isn't "easy" to beat. Someone should just provide a replay of this strat being beaten so as to avoid all these theoretical arguments. If Blizzard wants to fix it, a quick fix would be to limit the number of chronoboosts active at one time per nexus. So for example, if you have only one nexus you can only have 2 chronoboosts active. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:55 kheldorin wrote: I think it was Nazgul, not white-ra. Saw Nony losing to it on his stream vs AntiMage also. So yeah, it isn't "easy" to beat. Someone should just provide a replay of this strat being beaten so as to avoid all these theoretical arguments. If Blizzard wants to fix it, a quick fix would be to limit the number of chronoboosts active at one time per nexus. So for example, if you have only one nexus you can only have 2 chronoboosts active. That kind of change would be as simple as putting a 5-10 second cooldown on the ability...which would suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
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Warpzit
Denmark28 Posts
 though I aggree I think it all comes down to using stalkers optimal is a pain as it takes up much APM and it needs to confront the lots far from home base in order to avoid run by. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
Also feels cool to beat an unorthodox strategy for the first time *remembers killing off a cannon rush for the first time* | ||
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Dawme
France58 Posts
On May 28 2010 20:36 ChickenLips wrote: This is something Blizzard is aware of. I read in a Dustin Browder interview somewhere that he says that PvP has a problem in that you can only really survive in the early stages of the game if you have at least the same amount of gateways. PvP is the worst mirror matchup, that's for sure. It's pure zealot no gas spam, or cannon rush, or, 4 gateway. Very boring matchup. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 28 2010 22:02 Kratisto wrote: I'm going to go ahead and point out that finding three replays displaying a strategy working does not make that strategy overpowered. Statistically, I can find three replays of any strategy working and then come to TL's strategy board to QQ my heart out rather than asking for advice without making stupid assumptions about balance. Maybe you should check the replay pack (of 12 replays) before making this kind of statements. You only shame yourself | ||
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