EPT[D] PvP 4 Warpgate Proxy Pylon Cheese Overpowered? - Page 9
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
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lilnoobs
United States9 Posts
On May 31 2010 14:13 BigDates wrote: with any scouting, or an early stalker, this can be negated fairly easily. /facepalm it's like a giant bird shitting on a rock in the hot sun | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On May 31 2010 13:41 iokke wrote: Tired of people saying that, please use your heads just for a moment and stop being so close minded. Yes a build can be overpowered in a mirror. An extreme example would be a build that has no counters (other than doing same thing yourself) and everyone is forced to use. You don't want those overpowered builds in a mirror because you will have no variety. Most people hate PvP as is.. Anywho thanks for heads up on this (though most PvP opponents rush z's vs me.. still I'll have to check it out too) Agreed, what people are poking fun at is the statement that a race is imbalanced, which would make no sense in a mirror match-up. There is nothing funny about an overpowered build in a mirror matchup. | ||
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Scorpius2501
Australia7 Posts
There you go, its a mirror match, the counter doesnt involve doing the same thing so i think by definition its not overpowered cheese, and there are counters out there. There is no dispute as to how powerful this is at this point in time, but as more players get exposed to it and practice the counter this build will fade just like all the other non-standard builds out there. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 31 2010 15:56 Scorpius2501 wrote: I have tried this within my Platinum division and I had a lot of success with it, though I do believe that part of what makes this build so powerful is that it is relatively new and catches the opponent by surprise. This is not overpowered by any means and another nerf to protoss because of this strat is uncalled for. I have been countered while using this strat and proper scouting is key, when my opponent saw my 3 warpgates getting built they immediately went 2 gate rush and teched to robo, and chrono the robo constantly. Once he got the first immortal out he had a much easier time dealing with any gateway unit that gets warped in. There you go, its a mirror match, the counter doesnt involve doing the same thing so i think by definition its not overpowered cheese, and there are counters out there. There is no dispute as to how powerful this is at this point in time, but as more players get exposed to it and practice the counter this build will fade just like all the other non-standard builds out there. Everytime my opponent has teched past cybernetics when I am doing this, they have lost. Perhaps you took too long to attack? | ||
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TiLLing
United States13 Posts
Ironically, some guy tried to 4 pylon proxy me right by the mineral line. I already knew what was up, and was able to beat it because i had read this post. I'm sure he did something wrong, but it was easier to stop once i saw it was clearly being attempted. i guess the 4 make it slower to stop, but just knowing of this build makes it much weaker in my eyes. I think people see it as being powerful right now because it's so new to everyone--most dont know it exists. even a proxy outside is seemingly nothing more than holding off attacks and pushing until the pylons are down. Me: "TL forums?" Him: "ya..." Me:"Might work against those who don't know the tell-tale 4 pylon warning signs. LoL." | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
What does that tell you about the Asian server? They probably figured this out months ago (I'm talking post warpgate nerf). | ||
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tyCe
Australia2542 Posts
On May 31 2010 17:21 Tozar wrote: Nearly everyone I've played that defended themselves against this build easily didn't speak English... What does that tell you about the Asian server? They probably figured this out months ago (I'm talking post warpgate nerf). What did they end up doing? :p Also, how does a 4 gate response (so the defender's 4 gates would be coming out slower than the aggressor's) deal with this rush? Obviously, the warp will be a little slower, but assuming that the defender can get the in-base pylons down, it seems that it should be manageable to hold the ramp/deal with any stray warp-ins above the ramp. I don't have a Protoss practice partner to play with, so I can't test this out myself. | ||
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RedTerror
New Zealand742 Posts
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Perfi
Poland349 Posts
On May 31 2010 21:27 ViruX wrote: This is me beating it with my mass hallucinate build. At the time I hadn't heard of the 4 warpate proxy pylon strat when I did this fight. Killing that first probe with your Sentry delayed him a lot. Had he built the pylons earlier, you'd have been in trouble imo. | ||
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ashburn
Singapore76 Posts
Epic quote: you are going to get cheesed you probably won't like it but there isn't much you can do LOL, after seeing this for the 4th time or so, I just chuckle so hard.  The battle with indy is epic :p | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
(1) proxy eliminates time to travel across map and defender's advantage at ramp, and (2) you cut probes to squeeze out a couple extra units. but it has a few disadvantages as well: (1) you have to dump a couple hundred extra minerals in proxy pylons which offsets the probe cutting to some degree, (2) you warp in at a vulnerable position, and (3) any units you build prior to warpgate tech still have to walk across map and up ramp, so your force is somewhat split. I just don't see this working well against a protoss player who's building stalkers responsibly. It punishes players who get greedy and rely to heavily on the ramp/sentry defense, but I don't see the probe cutting giving enough of a temporary production boost to KO standard stalker plays. | ||
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Slyestfox
United States1 Post
I'm curious if you have had any opponents respond simply by building the same number of gates and matching units? It would seem that without having to build so many pylons that they should get an easy lead this way. Since they are the same race, there is nothing that you can do that they can't, right? If they are doing it inside their own base, it would seem that they have the advantage in the situation. This leads to the inevitable, sad conclusion that Protoss can only be played in one way, though. (Mass gates/units, or die.) Another counter that I would like to see tried is a forge upon scouting the build, and cannons near the pylons. Your units should be vulnerable during the warp, which has to be near the pylons, and they should be able to build at a sufficient amount of them at a cost:cost ratio to handle the units coming out. This does raise a question of how the opponent will fair in the later game, though, if you transition. Finally, a noob idea that I thought of to "balance" this is as follow: Modify pylons to be more like a Zerg creep. Pylons built within a certain radius of a Nexus (or Pylons built within the field of THOSE Pylons) receive full HP. Like creep, you could expand these full Pylons gradually outward. However, you maintain the ability to build Pylons anywhere on the map that you like. Any Pylons created outside of the Nexus-provided network, though, will receive an amount of HP that makes them much easier to destroy. This would provide an incentive to Protoss players to hide their proxy builds, and to be unable to "cheese" them as easily by building them blatantly at a players mineral line and abusing the crap out of them. Let me know what any of you think! | ||
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TimeToPractice!
United States105 Posts
First time I'd seen such a thing since the old days when Warp Gate was only sixty seconds. I did notice one key element after the fact. He gateway'd on 10, giving him a fast core and then boosted that research really quickly. He also puts down three gates almost at an identical time. If you scout either the 10 gate into core, or the way he throws down three more gateways so quickly, you can probably scout this... I scouted Tozar super late. Last position I checked on Kulas Ravine... I think this strategy wins by the opponent being caught completely off guard. People have really let down their guard when it comes to proxy warp-in in PvP once the warp-gate research time was nerfed. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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Elprede
74 Posts
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TsoBadGuy
United States221 Posts
One and a half people are right, this is weak against rushes. The rest of you need to observe more. Not only have I watched all these replays, I've used this build to GREEEAT effect. People don't understand how much that initial probe ISN'T crucial to the build, by the time your research finishes the other toss player SHOULD have a stalker, Tozar has accounted for this. Sometimes this stalker takes out the initial probe, it happened to me, and I saw it happen to him. It doesn't set you back that much, it just means you won't be able to warp into the mineral line. Most protoss make this mistake: they overcompensate for the probe/pylon and think if they can kill either they can stop the strat. What the protoss don't realize most of the time is what they really have to beat is 4 warpgates, not a probe and some pylons. Which is why I don't really think of this strat as cheesy at all, you can see it and still not counter it very easily or immediately. But back to the real point. When the initial probe fails to pylon the mineral line at the correct time (And I'd say it does about 50% of the time) we just build pylons leading up to the base, with one pylon close enough to warp units up the cliff. Generally, they won't be able to stop you from pushing unless they have at LEAST 3 gates, once your at the top of the ramp you can now warp in units behind the choke (or just on top the cliff if they didn't block choke.) I've never lost using this strat the limited number times I have used it, and I'm not even top 10 in diamond. I don't think it's overpowered just because the window for this strategy is so narrow, you leave yourself very vulnerable right up until you can hit. If the initial attack fails in the first attempted you will likely be out teched/resourced unless you did good damage to the econ before dying. Strong strategy, you should make up more :D I can only copy Nony and whiteRa so much  | ||
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RandomBS
United States130 Posts
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
On July 22 2010 11:41 RandomBS wrote: The korean player tester just used this build in the day[9] daily slight change, he took guys off gas and went straight zealot, also he didnt 10pylon/gate (i think) so it was slightly different | ||
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