EPT[D] PvP 4 Warpgate Proxy Pylon Cheese Overpowered? - Page 2
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Kultcher
United States150 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:44 OneOther wrote: Lol these guys are way too good for this build I suppose Thank you for being a voice of reason. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:45 -Archangel- wrote: I want to see if this can work against Terran or Zerg. OP maybe, you want to test it? Doesn't work. Zerglings can chase your probe down easily on creep and destroy pylons quickly. Terran has way too many options for preventing this. I've only done it successfully against a terran once, it was by sheer luck that he didn't find my probe hiding in his base and had starting making vikings. | ||
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Kultcher
United States150 Posts
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Dawme
France58 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
But that could be fixed as well. After the 1st cyber build a stalker to kill the probe and then continue with the build and send that stalker to attack once pylons are building. | ||
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Zidane
United States1689 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:56 Dawme wrote: I don't understand why nobody is killing your probe before you put any pylons up, getting a stalker just after core and kill the scouting probe isn't the most standard thing in the world ? This. The only time your build worked after he killed your scouting probe was when you sent another one and LUCKILY snuck it back into his main, most other people would have a stalker blocking his choke. | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
I build 1 stalker and 1 zealot to block my choke EVERY GAME against P or Z. Against people who subscribe to the "P don't need to wall/choke" school of thought it will work. Yet another example why these people are very, very wrong. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
But it's pretty easy to hide a probe or bait one of the units and then get a probe in. And also the fact that it's pretty hard to tell it's coming is cool. All you can check for is that they are double chrono boosting warpgate research. It'll make me paranoid about ramp blocking in pvp... that's for sure. and lol at all these other people... 'I CAN KILL SCOUTING PROBES, YOUR STRAT IS FAIL... you somehow think you're better than huk and attero? If you knew it was coming, yeah you'd block the ramp. But this looks like so many other standard pvp builds. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:56 Dawme wrote: I don't understand why nobody is killing your probe before you put any pylons up, getting a stalker just after core and kill the scouting probe isn't the most standard thing in the world ? Kill it with what? Scouting probes make it into your main before you have anything but probes, and if you chase it with multiple probes it can still start pylons building without dying fast at all. I suppose you could (maybe) beat it by devoting a lot of probes to killing the pylons as they warp in, but proper execution by the offensive player is going to result in you devoting so many probes to that that you'd be behind economically by the time you beat the rush off, and then its just a normal game. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 28 2010 16:19 Uranium wrote: 1 Stalker to kill scouting probe + 1 Zealot to block the choke will prevent this build from "going off" at the necessary timing. I build 1 stalker and 1 zealot to block my choke EVERY GAME against P or Z. Against people who subscribe to the "P don't need to wall/choke" school of thought it will work. Yet another example why these people are very, very wrong. I build 4 pylons outside your base and warp in my second set of units to high ground, your wall is useless. I thinkI did this a few times in the replay pack. This is a plan B, but is still ridiculously effective, even after losing 100-200 minerals on lost pylons. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
I have to point out a few notes, I saw 5 replays : Huk, Oneother, Templer 3, Bliss and Indy. Let's forget those but Oneother and Indy. Oneother had more chance than the others to beat it. He was able to kill the scout, and avoid the pylons in mineral line,. Now there are some errors still, the ramp is not blocked anymore (but that was expected due to the distraction) and there are still down times on the gateway. What is interesting though is you really need those zealots, there was too much stalkers taken out by Zealots. But let's see indy's... Now we can see something interesting, both you and indy get the core before the 2nd Pylon so he is able to be close to you in the Warp race. After that it is a mirror 4Gate vs 3Gate with micro and stuff and it holds up. What I can come up with is get Core before 2Pylon, chrono WG, get stalker fast to kill scout. Keep scout in base since he doesn't make units I really don't understand why all these players backed the scout of. See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro. Definitely strong as a refined 4Gate but not unbeatable I think, might be a new cheese for PvP that players have to incorporate though. Edit : I think I'll try things with the build order trainer and compare the time I have things to those you get yours in the replays. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On May 28 2010 16:31 rezoacken wrote: Well this look like a rafined 4 Warp-Gate. And this is strong no doubt about it but not impossible. I have to point out a few notes, I saw 5 replays : Huk, Oneother, Templer 3, Bliss and Indy. Let's forget those but Oneother and Indy. Oneother had more chance than the others to beat it. He was able to kill the scout, and avoid the pylons in mineral line,. Now there are some errors still, the ramp is not blocked anymore (but that was expected due to the distraction) and there are still down times on the gateway. What is interesting though is you really need those zealots, there was too much stalkers taken out by Zealots. But let's see indy's... Now we can see something interesting, both you and indy get the core before the 2nd Pylon so he is able to be close to you in the Warp race. After that it is a mirror 4Gate vs 3Gate with micro and stuff and it holds up. What I can come up with is get Core before 2Pylon, chrono WG, get stalker fast to kill scout. Keep scout in base since he doesn't make units I really don't understand why all these players backed the scout of. See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro. Definitely strong as a refined 4Gate but not unbeatable I think, might be a new cheese for PvP that players have to incorporate though. I want to give you a prize. Quality post!! I can tell you put a lot of thought into it. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
I will play with the build-trainer thingy tommorow to see timings for this build and counters I can come up with. In fact im mainly thinking about what are the pros and cons of going Core before 2nd Pylon in the overall matchups. The main thing seems that you have to skip your first Zealot. But then you can make your 2nd Gaz later, heavy stalkers/zealots dont need a quick 2nd Gaz if you have to defend against a heavy gate early agression. | ||
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Mez
Australia42 Posts
On May 28 2010 16:31 rezoacken wrote: See he is going heavy gateway and add your own gateways (at least 3 after all he is behind in minerals and must warp in your main taking extra dammage). From there it comes to better unit making decisions and micro. He's warping into your probe line, he only needs to kill 1 - 2 probes with each zealot (very easy to do) to be ahead at this point. Also he has 1 gas so is ahead of minerals (assuming you took a 2nd gas), if you didn't take a 2nd gas you might aswell just mirror what he is doing and make a pylon or 2 in his mineral line. | ||
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rezoacken
Canada2719 Posts
[B] He's warping into your probe line, he only needs to kill 1 - 2 probes with each zealot (very easy to do) to be ahead at this point. Also he has 1 gas so is ahead of minerals (assuming you took a 2nd gas), if you didn't take a 2nd gas you might aswell just mirror what he is doing and make a pylon or 2 in his mineral line. Like I said Pylon in meneral line should be avoided the way oneother and indy did. A quick stalker with a zealot are enough dont forget he is making 0 units during that time you should be able to kill the pylons in mineral line (after killing the probe). Then he goes to plan-B and it is a remake of Indy game micro intensive with good unit making decisions. All the game that were not even close were lost due to scout probe alive in base for 6minutes and from there yeah it's over, but people will learn a 4 gate with no units and a still wandering probe in your base is trouble and quickly will learn how to respond. Edit : and yeah you might consider building a pre-emptive proxy pylon to send a zealot or two to distract him by having to send more units than a zealots to kill it (less in your base) otherwise he loses too many probes. You might also consider trying out a forge when you see 4 gates (2-3Gate + 1Forge) and build good canons (1 in his base ?) (have to test it mineral wise). | ||
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Xeln4g4
Italy1209 Posts
On May 28 2010 15:35 Skyro wrote: How can a strategy in a mirror match be overpowered??? ALL said ... please ok? Let's close this topic before someone even consider nerfing P again ... i have a record of 12-3 in PvP just because i rush 2-3 gate against 1 gate - core and always run over my opponent zeal - stalker build because they just don't adjust their build and production accordingly and think they can defend early game with less units. Nevertheless i don't think my start is overpowered or i am good .. i just think unusual build catch most of the players unprepared. When i see proxy or staff like that i always try to counter with cannon rush and very often i am succesfull because opponents just dont have anything in their own base to defend and have bad eco because of early scout/rush. So they take off probes from mining, to defend cannon rush and at this point their eco is completely fucked up -> gg | ||
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