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On May 28 2010 22:02 Kratisto wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and point out that finding three replays displaying a strategy working does not make that strategy overpowered. Statistically, I can find three replays of any strategy working and then come to TL's strategy board to QQ my heart out rather than asking for advice without making stupid assumptions about balance.
You god damn moron.
On May 28 2010 14:37 Tozar wrote:The following replay pack contains 12 games that are all top level Diamond PvP games, won by me consecutively without any PvP losses against other Diamond level players. Some of them are rematches with the same person who knows it is coming and cannot stop it. Only one of them is a game that I lost and it lasted an exhausting 45 minutes: Tozar's Overpowered 4 Warpgate Cheese
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Calgary25979 Posts
... It's strong but people don't expect it. It's like scouting a Forge in BW and laughing and then he cannons behind your minerals. Then people come to expect that's an option. It's a great all-in but it isn't overpowered.
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Like I've told everyone about it, it is overpowered if you just spend chronos on your nexus.
I.e. metagame says you should watch your opponent's chronoboosts as well as their scouting probe. I haven't lost to this before, and some of my friends have practiced with me enough to be able to beat me when I do this solidly.
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How do you counter a 2gate zealot rush with this? By the time you scout him, depending on the map, he can already have a 2nd gate on the way and you're stuck with no zealot in que and a cc.
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Very, very solid all-in, especially on 4-player maps where a 2 Gate Proxy is out of question.
Although it's going to catch most players by surprise I still think a Zealot - Stalker start or a fast Forge should shut it down.
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I saw the replays. I do think that Tozar out-macroed his opponents though, because he managed to shave off seconds off building, and chronoboosting his cybercore and those extra seconds help a lot. The probes can't do that much damage, and the protoss units are too strong.
Unfortunately, 2 gate rush rapes this, and if not, just 2 gate rally your units.
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I went 0-3 vs Tozar but the last game I defended the 4warpgates pretty well (probably cause it was Desert Oasis). I eventually lost the game cause of DTs. I'll post the replay later today.
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On May 29 2010 03:29 ScythedBlade wrote:
I saw the replays. I do think that Tozar out-macroed his opponents though, because he managed to shave off seconds off building, and chronoboosting his cybercore and those extra seconds help a lot. The probes can't do that much damage, and the protoss units are too strong.
Unfortunately, 2 gate rush rapes this, and if not, just 2 gate rally your units.
2 Gate will force a slight deviation in strategy. I will typically throw down a forge and make a zealot and one well place cannon to hold off the rush (if I scout it in time, the recent forge nerf makes this a bit difficult to pull off), then a stalker if his aggression persists. Most players will back off and stop producing units, which sets me up to use my strategy anyway.
2 Gate proxy will often end the game. (I have seen this done on Lost Temple, I was impressed. He was at 9, scouted the empty 12 position, and built at the south xel' naga tower, undetected. Then I scouted him last ;_; )
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Tozar I have watched 3 of your replays and will eventually get to the rest. I was wondering if you could direct me to a replay where someone tried a 2gate Zealot rush against you when you were doing this build? If not, have you experienced it yet? How do you adapt? What were the results?
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8748 Posts
This strat probably gets the most wins vs me out of any PvP strat. This and 2gate or 3gate zealot rush. My practice against those builds is so haphazard though because I almost never play customs and when I'm laddering I get to play vs them maybe once a day... Maybe sometime next week, if you're still confident in this build, we can play a bunch of customs?
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hmm I was overwhelmed after watching this replay. Come to think of it, this is a pretty strong strat that if u dont know u wont be able to fight it off. Tozar cleverly cut probe at 20, build only 1 gas, thats the reason he could get all those 4 gate and 3 pylons in the base. The reason why this is so deadly is the fact that his units are inside the base so he could deal economical damage while his econ is just fine. 2 gate zeal rush only work if the distance is close, if its too far, tozar has all the time in the world to make extra sentries and stalkers to deal with them and when the rush is over, tozar is on the move. This leads to 2 gate proxy short distance would work but will require intense micro (if tozar dont completely wall the choke with force and cannon).
I saw one earlier post that proposed a solution to this and I think I might want to try that out. And now thanks to Tozar, I have to defend this funky build almost every time I do PvP <.<
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Players are usually adverse to building cannons. That might negate it.
How about a wall-off + kill probe? I usually wall off because of fear of a 2-gate zealot rush ... it's only against terrans I don't wall off. So, shouldn't that stop your strat?
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the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
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On May 29 2010 03:53 roymarthyup wrote:
the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
There is no "choke" in this build. If I can't make pylons anywhere in your base I can make them just outside of your base, and THEN in your base. People talking about holding chokes are missing the point.
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On May 29 2010 03:53 roymarthyup wrote:
the most standard thing in the world is to make a stalker right after your core finishes
when your stalker finishes, have it run around your base killing enemy scouting probes while your zealot holds your choke
after your stalker has killed all the probes in your base, send it to your choke to kill any more probes that might come in
warpgate tech finishes slowly. if the probe makes pylons in your base before it dies, immediately chrono out more zealots to protect your choke and use stalker +zealot to kill those pylons. warp gate finishes so slow that your stalker+zeal should be able to kill 2-3 pylons before your enemies warpgate tech finishes
If you have carefully read tozar's first post, watch the replays be4 posting <.<
And Tozar, if protoss get nerfed again, I will hate you 4ever >.<
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Tozar, don't you require vision to warp? So on maps like LT, as long as your probe isn't in it, then all units have to be outside ...
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PvP is the worst mirror matchup, that's for sure. It's pure zealot no gas spam, or cannon rush, or, 4 gateway. Very boring matchup.
Every time I choose protoss and see that my rival is protoss I just sigh and asume that the game will be over in ten minutes.
I find it sad that there are virtually no macro games on ladders. Seems that the modo is cheese and/or all-in your way to the top. Also, It's funny how you read here about how players win by abusing a early all-in strategy. If you just win with a 4 gate, every time, in PvP, it actually means that 4 gate is probably the only strategy that you can resort to.
That's not stacraft that's spamming a strat that will work a X% of times and really settling for that.
Also is fun how when games go macro against P, it really shows how they really don't know how to deal with and manage large quantitys of units..
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On May 28 2010 15:38 Tozar wrote:
Yes, 2 gate builds shut this down and force me to change my strategy.
Yes, a stalker can be built to kill the scout probe in time .
I don't think this is strategy unbeatable
Good. You just answered your own question. Your strategy is not unbeatable.
Guess what?
Before the new ladder came out with diamond, I got to #2 platinum from gold (I stopped playing for a few days and never got to #1 rank) off of JUST 2-gate proxy rushes. I played about 50 games and won about 80% of them JUST doing douchebag 2-gate proxy rushes. And I owned so many people because I could micro zealots and perform a pretty good all-in cheese strategy. That doesn't mean it's broken or overpowered, because I know exactly how to stop it as well. And I certainly didn't make a thread about how good I am or about how broken the technique is.
Then I realized that I wanted to play past the five-minute mark, and learn how to do other strategies as well with Protoss, so I stopped doing 2-gate proxies.
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Just went from fresh into Diamond (around #13 w/ 30-19) to #1 Diamond in my division. Got 4 PvP in a row and decided to test this strategy and BOY.
They never check their base for my hidden probe (always survived, or maybe I'm just good at getting it in there)
They see my 4 warpgates and continue to tech.
They ragequit almost always (1 also called me "fu cking noob" .. lul)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/yTQMJ.gif)
I will not continue to use this strategy, just ain't no fun. (I don't play only to win)
effective strat tho 
edit: btw. this feels fun to just win every single game, but on the other side of the battlefield, that shit's fcking annoying
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On May 29 2010 04:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 15:38 Tozar wrote:
Yes, 2 gate builds shut this down and force me to change my strategy.
Yes, a stalker can be built to kill the scout probe in time .
I don't think this is strategy unbeatable Good. You just answered your own question. Your strategy is not unbeatable. Guess what? Before the new ladder came out with diamond, I got to #2 platinum from gold (I stopped playing for a few days and never got to #1 rank) off of JUST 2-gate proxy rushes. I played about 50 games and won about 80% of them JUST doing douchebag 2-gate proxy rushes. And I owned so many people because I could micro zealots and perform a pretty good all-in cheese strategy. That doesn't mean it's broken or overpowered, because I know exactly how to stop it as well. And I certainly didn't make a thread about how good I am or about how broken the technique is. Then I realized that I wanted to play past the five-minute mark, and learn how to do other strategies as well with Protoss, so I stopped doing 2-gate proxies.
ROFL, way to take my words out of context! If you are going to quote me, use the whole post. For the record this is a discussion not a question thread.
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EPT
