EPTIf you just plopped down your expo, cancel it and make a warren.
If it's been there for a while, pump lings and bring a few drones to ward off the attack.
The technique in defending your FE is not being too greedy with econ.
[H] ZvP: Zerg cannot FE anymore - Page 2
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ZenDeX
Philippines2916 Posts
If you just plopped down your expo, cancel it and make a warren. If it's been there for a while, pump lings and bring a few drones to ward off the attack. The technique in defending your FE is not being too greedy with econ. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 01 2010 12:04 danl9rm wrote: FE doesn't lose to toss. even if the toss all-ins. it comes down to micro and scouting. don't make 100 drones and you'll be fine. that is... if u know how to micro. Agreed. | ||
Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On May 01 2010 12:56 Tsagacity wrote: I haven't played in a while, but I'm more interested in what a zerg does when a probe denies the hatch FE with a probe/pylon? Since pool first is very common and you need lings to kill the probe, it seems like a protoss should be able to delay the hatch quite a bit everygame, but I rarely see it happen. I've been wondering what I'd do against it as well. It's so strange that it doesn't happen more often. The most recent time it happened the guy moved away just a tad too far and I instantly threw down a hatch because I already had the hatch waiting to be placed in the right spot. The instant he moved away my drone dropped into a hatch. Someone good, though, should be able to keep a probe there almost forever. Going to have to start hiding drones behind the minerals. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 01 2010 10:33 Machine[USA] wrote: you just need to macro well and know when to make spine crawlers, then 4 gate is not so hard to deal with. Exactly. I struggled holding it for awhile until I threw in spine crawlers and now its like " oh warpgate all in I win"  .I 14 hatch also as I so far haven't lost to a proxy 2 gate doing it, that 1 gate expand and all that fun stuff so until I see something I can't hold off when I 14 hatch I am going to keep doing it in ladder . | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
On May 01 2010 10:36 Kiarip wrote: ^ hey machine!! how do you stop 1 gate forge zealot cannon rush? =/ I'm not machine, but scouting?... Out of the 12 times i've been cheesed since the reset, i've lost one. Once i see no pylon/sup in their base when my ovies already done, time for 10pool. 10Pool eco wil beat their eco usually, orr if its a bit of a bigger map, 11-12 pool works. The one i lost to was a Reaper Harass with a bunker on Desert Oasis, transitioned into a banshee harass | ||
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Owarida
United States333 Posts
Game 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAuS3YpmYY Game 2 Game 3 You can FE vs toss you just need to be skilled enough to pull it off vs fast zealots. I usually do 15pool 15 hatch and you can handle zealots most of the time, and if/when you keep your nat, if he allows you to power drone you are in great shape to setup for hydras to stop the timing attack with 2/3 spine crawlers+hydra range. | ||
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Synwave
United States2803 Posts
In response, watch Idra sometime and tell him he can't FE or Artosis or... gosh any of the high level zergs. Are there builds designed to punish it, you betcha. Does that mean its unpossible or no longer viable to FE, not even slightly. Lesson for the day: Don't make stupid topic titles and expect any level of respect. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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done
Germany70 Posts
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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Merano
Austria105 Posts
First replay: 4 gates was scouted, but just 1 crawler at nat; toss threatened to use backdoor rocks, then nicely caught 1/2 of roach army with force fields twice near the choke 2nd replay: This wasn't a typical FE, since zerg built 12 lings first (that got stuck at the opponents rocks) and was behind in economy all the time I am not a highlevel player, but I think these replays are not representative. | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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Fluxx
Netherlands58 Posts
Pretty much sums up the dynamics of this topic/thread. | ||
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Hold-Lurker
United States403 Posts
On May 01 2010 23:51 Fluxx wrote: Watch the battle between the Plot brothers of HD invitational, 3rd match. Pretty much sums up the dynamics of this topic/thread. Third match was TvZ, I think you mean the second match on Blistering Sands but that doesn't suggest tthat zerg can no longer FE. Day9 even admits he messes up because he doesn't scout the cancelled robo and had just begun hydra production when the attack hit (4warpgate push comes slightly faster). If you scout 4warpgate it's not difficult to defend. I think you just need to play a little safer regardless if you think it's 4warpgate or 3gaterobo because you should still be ahead if you beat his push. Alternatively you can sac an overlord to check the push after your zerglings are repelled. Finally, be sure to check the map for proxies! In the early Asian tournaments, they were proxying 2-3 warpgates all the time to throw the zerg off the gateway count. A blocked ramp could also mean proxy void rays or DT tech so scout, scout, scout (like Idra v Orb Game 3, 1 or 2 lings queued up with a dozen waypoints is most efficient). | ||
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Fluxx
Netherlands58 Posts
On May 02 2010 00:02 Hold-Lurker wrote: Third match was TvZ, I think you mean the second match on Blistering Sands but that doesn't suggest tthat zerg can no longer FE. Day9 even admits he messes up because he doesn't scout the cancelled robo and had just begun hydra production when the attack hit (4warpgate push comes slightly faster). If you scout 4warpgate it's not difficult to defend. Yes I meant the 2nd match. The thing I said was that the dynamics of FE PvZ is very clear and analysed in that match. Not saying it is impossible to FE, or that it is impossible to counter. But to be honost that match highlighted all the subleties of the matchup. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
On May 01 2010 17:45 Synwave wrote: Lesson for the day: Don't make stupid topic titles and expect any level of respect. Please don't be that harsh, I just forgot a question mark in the title. This thread turned to be very helpful, thanks for contributing. To sum up: Zerg needs to put 4-6 spine crawlers at around 7:00 to stop 4-gate all-in and should have a small army with powerful economics. Roaches or hydras or mutas can work, depending on your preferences. Unsolved questions: 1) a good vod or rep that shows how to reliably stop 2-gate agression. General idea is to build lings and switch to roaches. 2) Will Tosses start doing their own FE if they see Zerg going FE or will they continue to push? | ||
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
On May 02 2010 07:36 goszar wrote: Please don't be that harsh, I just forgot a question mark in the title. This thread turned to be very helpful, thanks for contributing. To sum up: Zerg needs to put 4-6 spine crawlers at around 7:00 to stop 4-gate all-in and should have a small army with powerful economics. Roaches or hydras or mutas can work, depending on your preferences. Unsolved questions: 1) a good vod or rep that shows how to reliably stop 2-gate agression. General idea is to build lings and switch to roaches. 2) Will Tosses start doing their own FE if they see Zerg going FE or will they continue to push? 1, I used to 2-gate a lot in like patch 7 or smth on maps I had no clue how to play (Kulas comes to mind), usually if the Z scouts it in time he can stop it. If needed, cancel the exp, 2 crawlers in the minline and instantly build a warren (if you took gas especially). I couldn't really hold vs the follow-up roaches even when I knew they were coming. Obv a lot has been re-balanced since then, but I don't think that -1 armor will stop the Z from running 2 gate zeals over. As for #2, I'm surprised they didn't yet. I use a similar build to Nazgul's FE (I started doing it after reading a post by him vaguely describing it as "1 gate pressure -> forge if needed -> FE, seeing his replays / VODslately it seems we do it a bit differently). I got told yesterday that "I'm annoying with that early gate -> FE build of mine" by someone whom I laddered a lot with (we were #1 and #2 in our division pre-patch 9, just a friendly rivalry), and he surprised me - I said I thought a lot more people started copying Nazgul already and he replied no, I'm the only one who does this kinda FE vs his Zerg. Edit: also, I thought it's pretty wide-spread since most Zergs I played lately weren't really thrown off and threw very good counters at me. I think FEing in PvZ with P makes it a totally different and much more dynamic MU (more economy means more options, so a lot more variables. I like it  ) | ||
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Izslove
Australia69 Posts
I don't really see FE being "unusable", it's just a matter of making your FE safe before you make it profitable. I 100% agree with this statment. So many people FE and just keep pumping out drones expecing the other person to sit back and not try and punish it. Safe B4 Profitable FTW! | ||
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