I have watched a lot of replays, played many games and examined several threads on the topic. I'm completely convinced that Zerg cannot go FE vs Protoss of equal skill level on most maps. Protoss does 4-warpgate Zeal/Sentry/Stalker all-in and kills any army Zerg might have. The push hits at 8 minutes. Alternatively Protoss can go 2-gate or try to cannon rush.
Replays:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1qkm5ijnim : Zotac finals, Toss pushes with 6 Zeal 8 Sentry vs Roaches+Crawler.
http://www.mediafire.com/?znezmyzmajj: Zotac round 5, standard push.
http://www.mediafire.com/?tkwtmfmmivd: Korean replay with 2 gate into the push.

I can upload a lot of games of my own, but I'm pretty bad (1138 Plat atm).
Please provide replays or vods where FE Zerg stops 4-gate if you disagree.
I'm back to playing from 1 base because I don't want to lose every ZvP.

Nemesis

Canada2568 Posts

May 01 2010 01:01 GMT

Well of course all-in attacks/cheese beats FE, that's what they're designed to do.

Toran7

United States160 Posts

May 01 2010 01:05 GMT

Just an example of rock paper scissors. The zerg FE'd knowing that there is a counter to it. Just like there is a counter to 4 gate rush. Just because one build has a punishing counter doesn't mean that the option is dead.

goszar

Belarus119 Posts

May 01 2010 01:10 GMT

On May 01 2010 10:01 Nemesis wrote:
Well of course all-in attacks/cheese beats FE, that's what they're designed to do.

I know, but it is very bad for the state of the game. Such games don't last past 10-15 minutes. I was happy a week ago seeing more economic/macro games, but metagame already made a circle and most players are back to cheesing and going all-in. This is especially visible in asian replays/vods.
Hopefully someone works out a later FE, in 20-26 range.

Toran7
What is a counter to 4 gate push please? I'm very interested because 90% Plat toss do it.

Opti

United States155 Posts

May 01 2010 01:14 GMT

actually a line of sunkens pretty much negates a 4 gate rush on your FE. By the time he has enough to actually push without getting annihilated by your wall of sunkens, youll have mutas which coupled with your sunkens will own him should he try to push. Plus they own void rays too.

Most zerg that i see concentrate first on saturating that FE (being greedy) rather than protecting it, but i have seen the FE work very well, to the point of being really not counterable with lots of air + a sunken line. Of course, if he does something smart like warp prism and drops off a few immortals at your min line then warps in from 4 gates a few times, youre still screwed, but a frontal attack is usually not an option if they have a great line of sunkens, unless you have a void ray attacking it.. and that requires a tech switch that makes the toss vulnerable.

I don't really see FE being "unusable", it's just a matter of making your FE safe before you make it profitable.

red.venom

United States4651 Posts

May 01 2010 01:14 GMT

You have to defend and rely on a small economic advantage, it takes a bit of patience.. Almost anything can be used to decent effect, the sentry usage means that lings and roach require you to avoid attacking until you are in a very advantageous situation. The idea is that once the push fizzles and they attempt to expand your window of regaining map control based on your superior army size is at hand, take your 3rd or crush their expo.

Opti

United States155 Posts

May 01 2010 01:28 GMT

red.venom pretty much summed it up. alot of players just get too greedy with that expo, remember it's there to help with your unit production via extra larvae and you are effectively bunkering down, just like a 1 rax terran FE would with bunkers at his natural, you use sunkens and then go air.. this is a common strat for terran too, 1 rax FE to bunkers + maybe siege tanks while teching to vikings/banshees. And once you have a critical mass of vikings/shees, its game over. Same thing is true for the zerg with mutas and speedlings, or if the toss tries to expand to meet your FE, you take a 3rd and go muta/brood lords which absolutely crushes toss, there really is no viable counter at the moment for brood lords except for mass air, which tends to get raped by the mutas.

EGMachine

United States1643 Posts

May 01 2010 01:33 GMT

you just need to macro well and know when to make spine crawlers, then 4 gate is not so hard to deal with.

Kiarip

United States1835 Posts

May 01 2010 01:36 GMT

^ hey machine!! how do you stop 1 gate forge zealot cannon rush? =/

Foreplay

United States1154 Posts

May 01 2010 01:46 GMT

#10

i dont know what your talking about. I FE everygame and i can stop any all in with crawlers/speedlings.

Wr3k

Canada2533 Posts

May 01 2010 01:54 GMT

#11

You can still FE, you just need to gauge when its a good time to make 8 spine crawlers.

Ryuu314

United States12679 Posts

May 01 2010 01:57 GMT

#12

obviously if you spot cheese you do not FE. that was always the case and it should always be the case.

for 4gate pushes simply spam spine crawlers like none other. make speedlings as well for additional support. you'll be taking a momentary hit to your econ in return for stopping the push, being able to tech safely, and also being able to drone whore after you get your defenses up.

InSpiReZerG

United States159 Posts

May 01 2010 01:58 GMT

#13

This push is easy to beat. U have to keep ur drone alive long enough to see that he is going 4 gate(or sac and ovy) once u know u start laying sunkens before u drone up make like 4. then after some drones make up to 4 more. these sunkens will stop his 4 gate push every time. i have a working sunken / roach hybrid that works too but i need to perfect it because on rock maps like blistering this push is unstoppable currently.

goszar

Belarus119 Posts

May 01 2010 02:03 GMT

#14

Thanks for tips. Just played ZvP and the guy of course did the push. I analyzed the replays and got the time to put down 5 spine crawlers - 7:00 or about 40 population if you build 2 queens, 2-6 lings and drones. Replay if anyone is interested (the guy was pretty bad i'd say): http://www.mediafire.com/?gjymojmmov4
But it seems very strange that many Zergs lose to this push at finals of various tourneys.

poor newb

United States1879 Posts

May 01 2010 02:05 GMT

#15

how to defend the hatch against 2 gate zealot pressure?

Zelniq

United States7166 Posts

May 01 2010 02:08 GMT

#16

i'll watch the reps later but i'm confident you can stop any warpgate attack with crawlers + roaches. gotta know when you can power drones hard with 2 queens and know the timings for when you need defense and i think you can easily defend

e.soul[gm]

Sierra Leone254 Posts

May 01 2010 02:14 GMT

#17

On May 01 2010 11:05 poor newb wrote:
how to defend the hatch against 2 gate zealot pressure?

run past the first two zealots and delay him while you make more lings/sunk at nat. then lay down a roach den whenever you can and counter push with roaches and win

Medzo

United States627 Posts

May 01 2010 02:55 GMT

#18

I have trouble on protoss who get the 4 warpgate army and take map control while they expand and eventually get colossus. It is really hard for me to get the 3rd up when they have this 4 warpgate army. Likely im doing something wrong. I try to use mutalisks to help secure a 3rd, but im finding them increasingly bad without BW mobility against stalkers.

danl9rm

United States3111 Posts

May 01 2010 03:04 GMT

#19

nah, i don't agree. i thought the thread was "zerg has to FE against toss" at first. now that's more like it.

FE doesn't lose to toss. even if the toss all-ins. it comes down to micro and scouting. don't make 100 drones and you'll be fine. that is... if u know how to micro.