EPT[D] The MULE and the Metagame Shift - Page 2
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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jackofclubs81
United States196 Posts
its not like the MULEs get worse or anything, theyre just no longer as big a % of ur econ sorry if i was a little difficult to understand  | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On March 15 2010 11:20 Avidkeystamper wrote: So do all races need similar economies to produce similarly strengths armies unlike SC1? i'm not sure i can answer this. at the very least, i would say having X amount of bases more than ___ race is less pivotal than having X amount of unit to counter ___ unit. at least from my limited experience, maintaining 1:1 TvX bases seems to work out fine for me. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
It is based on mineral income and number of workers. The very mechanic of protoss, is that they get more workers faster if they chronoboost. Thus, red, on this graph, is in fact not protoss, but a generic race not using macro mechanics at all. Protoss, should in fact have a steeper curve than terran, due to producing workers faster, if it were a graph of income vs time. Also, one thing that is interesting, is that terran is ahead on minerals, as long as they use the mule. If for some reason the terran scans instead of using a mule, until the terran can mule again, he is behind on income compared to the other races. If both races stop using their macro ability on economy to use it on something else, at the same point in time, terran who was ahead in economy, is now behind, assuming this happens before saturation. If both players stop using it for economy when they reach saturation, then they will both have the same income, but terran will be stopping later. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On March 15 2010 12:09 morimacil wrote: The graph is misleading. It is based on mineral income and number of workers. The very mechanic of protoss, is that they get more workers faster if they chronoboost. Thus, red, on this graph, is in fact not protoss, but a generic race not using macro mechanics at all. Protoss, should in fact have a steeper curve than terran, due to producing workers faster, if it were a graph of income vs time. it's true! but if you take into account the upper limit of 1 base protoss which is 27 workers that barely matches 18 SCVs + MULE for the terran. i'm not quite sure how many boosted probes you can build per scv but with a MULE you only need half the amount of scvs to keep up. there are various reasons why testing minerals / time are nearly impossible. one of them is that i don't know protoss builds. the other depends on how the protoss spends his chronoboosts. ok hold on i've thoroughly confused myself rofl hold on one more try | ||
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McCain
United States187 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
there are various reasons why testing minerals / time are nearly impossible. one of them is that i don't know protoss builds. the other depends on how the protoss spends his chronoboosts. I think a graph of income vs time of terran against protoss would be more appropriate, assuming that: A probe/scv is constantly being produced Terran uses mule each CD Protoss uses chronoboost on nexus each CD. That would actually show terran vs protoss income, which would be more interesting. Some other things your graph does not take into account: At any given point in time, a protoss that has been using chronoboost on his nexus will have more workers than someone not using any macro ability at all would have. At any point in time, a terran that is making a mule would have LESS workers than someone not using any macro ability at all (due to not producing workers during the build time for the orbital station. Thus, if terran builds an orbital station, but does not use the mule and instead opts to scan, he ends up being behind in economy, due to having 2 less workers than if he steadily produced workers. I am not quite sure if terran is really ahead or not of protoss in terms of mineral income while using mule. What I am sure of, however, is that if the terran opts to scan instead of muling, then he is behind on income by 2 workers (not produced while upgrading to orbital) + x workers (amount the protoss player gained extra from chronoboosting) A mule mines pretty much the same amount as 3 scvs. But in order to have access to a mule, you need to build 2 less SCVs than your opponent.(upgrade time) Then, while you have the mule running, you are 1 worker ahead of your opponent. If your opponent is protoss, and you are using one of your SVCs on building a factory for example, while his probe is happily mining and his warpgate is coming in, you are about equal in income. If your opponent chronoboosted his nexus enough to make one more worker than you, then he is ahead by one worker in income. If at this point, you stop using mule, and instead opt to scan, and still have an scv building something, and your opponent also stops using chronoboost on his nexus, opting for faster army instead, then you are behind by 4 workers: one used for building, 2 for making the orbital command, and 1 because your opponent chronoboosted his nexus. In short: mule is not nearly as big a boost as the graph shows. The graph, while correct, does not actually show any valuable information, it only shows that if both players have the same amount of workers mining, and one player has a mule mining too, the one with the mule is getting more money. Which I assume everyone already knew. | ||
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Karas
United States230 Posts
Terran's PF gives them an important advantage with yellow resources, as it allows a notorious hard to defend area to be defended much more easily. Further, once a yellow area is acquired, all mules can be called into this area for maximum resources. In other words, terrans can take advantage of yellow resources more readily than the other races, and I'm curious to know how much of an advantage it is. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
Terran build is 9 depot 13 racks, and protoss build is 9 pylon 13 gateway (attempting to make it as similar as possible) ![[image loading]](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6599/graphhs.jpg) (The first mule started mining at 3:30) ![[image loading]](http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4640/graph2r.jpg) What we can see from this data, is multiple things. First of all, in the very early game, terran is behind (obv due to producing 2 less workers, and spending 150 minerals) We can also see that protoss can make workers quite a bit faster than terran can, and can saturate mineral fields + gas quite a bit faster. But the most important that we can see here, I think, is that mules do not shine in the early game. Mules shine once a mineral field is fully saturated, as it gives you the equivalent of 3 workers working at 100% when your minerals are already fully saturated, which is quite a big boost in income. Few things to remember when looking at this graph: If both players intend to get gas, this delays the time when terran overtakes protoss on minerals pooled, since it then takes longer for both races to saturate their mineral fields completely. If protoss had not built the extra pylon and 10 workers compared to terran by the 8 min mark, then they would also have 500 more minerals pooled up by the 8 minute mark, greatly reducing the gap between terran and protoss in minerals pooled. This is with building no gas, using the macro abilities on CD, and making a constant stream of workers, and supply to meet the demand. When building additional buildings, terran loses more income than protoss. So, this should be some more interesting data to discuss! No idea how this really affects strategy though. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
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LuDwig-
Italy1143 Posts
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
On March 15 2010 14:43 LuDwig- wrote: How is possible that 25 workers mine more than 26? ._. using the replay income tool it's difficult to get consistent readings generally i look for the highest amount before the next worker finishes and when all the workers return minerals at once it rates it higher than if they return minerals one after another because it's minerals/time | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
It seems to be slightly more accurate, since it can really only vary by 50 or something at most. It also gives you a better idea of who has more minerals when, I find. | ||
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mahnini
United States6862 Posts
my graphs are completely borked i did something wrong. thanks for the graphs mormimacil | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
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Yamato
United States33 Posts
quick q: on that graph, are those chrono-boosted probes? | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On March 16 2010 00:35 Yamato wrote: hm. i think there is a point to be made here, but not sure what it is....so looking forward to the discussion. keep discussing! quick q: on that graph, are those chrono-boosted probes? Yes, as said, this is with using chronoboost on the nexus each CD, muling each CD, on a single base, with no gas or additional structures/army being produced. The only thing that I made was depots, a barrack, SCVs, and the orbital for terran, and pylons, probes, and a gateway for protoss. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
I am not a Terran player but by theory. Since MULE's Utility Declines towards the meta game and scans and even Supply drops may become more favorable to use than mules. I was thinking they serve an entirely different purpose in the metagame. As we all know the Metagame is limited by a ceiling called the Supply Cap. 200/200. Now of these 200 supplies a large fraction are workers used to uphold the economy. Now SCVs other than being workers and builders serve 2 other purposes, 1 is being a mech healer, 2 being the only Terran melee meat shield. Now in theory 1 MULE is equivalent to approximately 5 SCVs. If we replace a number of SCVs with MULEs (Which are free of Supply) we could use these SCVs either towards combat or to be sacrificed to yield additional supply for other Units. Of course MULEs have durations and their numbers are limited by the mana pool and number of Orbitals. but in theory this gives the terran a slight edge in the meta game where they can have a small supply advantage to their other racial counter parts. | ||
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diegonolan
United States54 Posts
Edit: What about pylons and supply depots that need to be made? Are those counted or did you only make the one each. Beacuse the scv would have to spend time making one while the probe could go back to mining right away. | ||
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