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Edit - Now that I think about it, I am not sure if this belongs in the Strategy section or not. Any admins wanna help out with that decision feel free! ^^
So I have been reading all about how Mutas are very difficult to deal with in PvZ and in some cases people have said that Protoss simply cannot fight Mutas right now and something needs to be changed. Well I have a couple unit combination's that I've tested vs Mass Mutas, Muta/Ling, and Muta Hydra. I will start with units that don't work vs Mutas.
Pheonix - For some reason the Phoenix dies in a split second vs Mutas even in large numbers. I think Blizzard intended the Phoenix to follow in the foot steps of the sair as a harassment unit. It works well for sniping lone overlords but pales in comparison to sairs when it comes to fighting groups of air units because splash is non - existant.
Stalkers - I attempted massing stalkers vs Mutas and the results were always the same. 40 stalkers vs 32 mutas = mutas win. 40 stalker vs 28 Muta = mutas winn but it was close. If zerg even adds any lings to the mix you just won't stand a chance.
Archons - Archons are actually great vs mutas except for zerg can get SOOOO many mutas and with the amount of pressure on your gas all game there is no way to make enough archons alone to deal with mutas. Mutas also do not stack like before so the splash is not as effective.
Void Rays - Well they only attack one unit at a time and for a pretty long time. Against a large number of Mutas they stand no chance.
So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right. There is just no way for Protoss to deal with mutas. Even after knowing they are coming and having plenty of time to prepare a muta-ling army would roll me so fast. So I searched the Tech-Tree in the help menu and found something really surprising to me. That cute lil snow globe they call the 'sentry' in the stats has a green box that says, "Strong Against, Mutalisk". I thought WHAT?! This thing has 40 HP and 40 Shields... I don't even think it could beat an SCV 1 on 1. So I gave it a whirl. Here are my tests results.
12 Muta vs 9 Sentry = SENTRY WIN! (I know shocking)
24 Muta vs 18 Sentry = Sentry win.
So I realized I don't even need to have as many sentry as they have mutas to stop the mutas. Every test I did of course was while using the Sentry's force field ability that reduces ranged damage by 2. This cuts down the initial blow of the muta from 9 to 7, then the second shot from 3 to 1 and the last shot still doing 1 damage. So after all this I thought okay realistically Zerg will not just have only mutas. So I tested against Muta/Ling and with sentry alone of course they lost. However, when I mixed 10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings, I won with NO problem at all. Collosus kill all the lings while the zeals take the damage, the mutas target the sentry where the sentry always win vs muta in close numbers. I then proceded to try different combinations of units along with the sentry and the safest combination felt like it was collosus + Zeal + sentry, and if you can afford it or have teched to it making templar for storm to help cast on the muta will tip things so far in your favor a counter attack would most likely win the game after the big fight. So those are my findings. Now I am usually playing Zerg on the ladder so if you see me in a game well... ignore what I said here and just try to go collosus on me while I muta ^.^
Just for those who don't have a beta yet and are curious. Money wise it is completely affordable to mass up on Sentry as long as you have both your double gas. Zerg will also need both double gas to support his mutas. Muta cost 100 mins and 100 gas. The sentry cost 50 Mins and 100 gas. This will give you extra minerals to spend on zealots/pylons/gates/ and still have enough to mix in some stalkers and collosus.
Summary. Sentry needs to be at about a 3/4 ratio vs Muta if you want to trade armies and possibly come out on top with 1-2 sentry's left. Your safest bet of course is having 3/4 ratio of Sentry/Muta and also having support by a couple stalkers, templar, and/or archons. Having your zealots around ur sentry also help to pick up some of the bounce damage from the Mutas as well so keep that in mind.
P.S. Sorry if this post was extra long but I just wanted to make it clear how everything worked out for me.
I am open to any feedback if you guys have any! Let me know your thoughts and opinions and if you know of any good builds to get your sentry army up and running. I only tested the unit combos themselves, I haven't tested any specific precise build orders to fight vs mutas. I just know the goal is to get sentrys mixed in with my army and to try not to fall behind in the Sentry vs Muta count or it could be devastating.
Edit -Grammar/Spelling/minor sentence structure. (also it was 18 sentry vs 24 muta not 16)
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It's really unexpected, those little snow balls =)
Also:
So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right.
No, Wow people are never right. Hahaha
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Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ...
I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people 
I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
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This seems awesome. Congrats on the discovery. Sentries have been my favorite unit to follow on the streams and if they are very good en masse that just makes the game so much more fun to watch.
I hope alot of high ranked people read this thread and try it out. Maybe zergs will have to go back to Hydra pushes because people have said that sentries are quite good against roaches aswell.
Again great find man.
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On February 26 2010 01:40 nbMifu wrote:It's really unexpected, those little snow balls =) Also: Show nested quote +So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right. No, Wow people are never right. Hahaha
Lol. Yeah I suppose. The snowglobes are cute though aren't they?
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On February 26 2010 01:41 green.at wrote:Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ... I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
Yeah I know... I know I have probably seen it in the unit board menu but possibly glanced over it like many others to read what the MOTHERSHIP AND CARRIERS DO! ^^ So I forgot all about the tiny lil snow globe that could.
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Speaking of the Mothership, does it also counter mutas? How many mutas do you need to take a Mothership in single combat?
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What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test?
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
mothership is very cost effective vs mutas even by its self.
it's questionable as to the actual amount that one would need to beat a mothership cause you never know how many of them are going to get sucked into the abyss.
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This actually makes sense.
Sentrys can be massed since they come out of gateways, unlike archons or phoenix which takes ages to get out. They only cost 50 minerals each which means you can spend more minerals on zealots than what the zerg can spend minerals on zerlings.
This owns muta/ling, and not just because it is doable but because it is more cost effective as well.
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A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything.
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On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote:
What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test?
ionno about the avg joe but i always ff and try to micro away weakened units
10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings
unit mix = easier time winning. If i was the zerg i'd go in with my mutalisk ignore you little serenity take out the 2 colossus and then move in to finish with muta ling.
also 12 sentry 2 colossus and 10 zealots is not the same cost as 12 muta and 36 lings
Also then you talk about upgrades and micro because obv you need to micro the shield on and if i was zerg i'd already go +1 and def have speed lings
12sentry = 600 mins 1200 gas
2 colossus = 600 mins 400 gas
10 zealots = 1000 mins
2200mins 1600 gas
12 mutas = 1200 mins 1200 gas
36 lings = 900 mins
2100 mins 1200 gas
besides the obviously huge gas difference there is also a mineral difference.
As a zerg player i avoid any large battle as zerg lacks the kind of heavy hitters where you can just ignore what's going on and your units will survive and always focus on dodging the army and hitting up stragglers and expansions.
Late game upgraded phoenix is >> upgraded mutalisk because phoenix is like a zealot has has 1 attack that happens twice fast and they get +5 dmg to light armor and +1 each upgrade to their attack so it's really a +2 along with sentry is only +3 to biological and is a single beam
ofc this is theory crafting.
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lol at all the forcefields you can make.
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On February 26 2010 01:54 0neder wrote:
A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything.
We are talking about the late game, not the early game.
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On February 26 2010 01:58 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:54 0neder wrote:
A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything. We are talking about the late game, not the early game.
phoenix are still better late game because by then you could mass a large fleet of them if you see them focusing on air units, slowly transition into carrier + mothership, and you have the great mobility of the phoenix rather than the slow sentry
*edit* and later int he game upgrading air weapons and armor can help sosososo much
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
wow, very well done. i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
i would test this myself but i'm dying to know - how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
I think you'd have to throw in more then 1 sentry something around 3 because if i knew sentry was giving me a hard time i'd take it out first and you can't micro that sentry away because you need it's shield.
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
but don't stalkers win vs mutas in these ratios? how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge)
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On February 26 2010 02:13 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
but don't stalkers win vs mutas in these ratios? how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge)
ofc then you could always upgrade armor as protoss instead of getting +1 attack :D but then there's that dam shield for protoss that also wants to be upgraded
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm
Fuck that! You can make forcefield hearts n shit with mass sentries! :D
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EPT
