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United States22883 Posts
On February 26 2010 04:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them? I think the issue, at least for this thread, is that they're not a complete counter to mutas in large numbers. With that said, phoenix are by no means bad. They kick ass especially with their gravity thing. Also, why did Blizzard remove the phoenix's old aoe spell? Was it because it was too powerful or what?
They're not, but it's like how scourge aren't a hard counter to sair past critical mass. You still use them before that point to keep sair numbers low for as long as possible.
Time will tell, but it still seems like often a better response than sentries. The OP is describing a hypothetical situation that isn't going to matter because sentries are slow and have shitty range. Maybe eventually you can position them to protect your main mineral line, but you've got a wide base to cover and while they're chasing the mutas, they're vulnerable to get picked off 1 at a time.
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sentries cost soo much gas though, so you better be using all other available minerals to canon and expo. and don't expect to tech at all when mutas begin the harass.
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As the the limit of x as x -> infinity mutalisk * t-t-t ~~~ zu zu zu
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
Sentries do 8 damage per 1/2 second = 16 damage a sec
Stalkers do 8 damage per second.
I would not want to mix in stalkers unless you made some already. It would just give more incentive for the muta to pick off sentries first.
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People are missing the point here. The point isn't "what one unit should you mass to counter early/mid game mutas". In SC1 there wasn't such a unit. You generally couldn't make enough sairs to defend against 3hat muta+scourge: instead, you made sairs but ALSO cannoned up your mineral line and supported with dragoons (which suck vs. muta by themselves but contributed. (It is good to have archons later on, of course)
The OP isn't saying "make only sentries against mutas", instead he's saying "sentries are effective against mutas". The counter to mutas might end up being something like "scout spire -> cannon mineral line, make 1 stargate phoenix and put gas toward sentries rather than stalkers (use extra mins for zeals/cannons). add stargates/archons if zerge persists with mutas."
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Sentries do 8 damage per 1/2 second = 16 damage a sec
Which of the following damage is correct?
8+3(to bio) per second or
8 per 1/2 second or
8+3(to bio) per 1/2 second
or something else? Thanks
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I think they just do plain 8 dmg, without any boni. After all it is a caster...
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On February 26 2010 07:40 nodule wrote:
People are missing the point here. The point isn't "what one unit should you mass to counter early/mid game mutas". In SC1 there wasn't such a unit. You generally couldn't make enough sairs to defend against 3hat muta+scourge: instead, you made sairs but ALSO cannoned up your mineral line and supported with dragoons (which suck vs. muta by themselves but contributed. (It is good to have archons later on, of course)
The OP isn't saying "make only sentries against mutas", instead he's saying "sentries are effective against mutas". The counter to mutas might end up being something like "scout spire -> cannon mineral line, make 1 stargate phoenix and put gas toward sentries rather than stalkers (use extra mins for zeals/cannons). add stargates/archons if zerge persists with mutas."
Thanks! Could not have said it better myself!
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On February 26 2010 06:58 CharlieMurphy wrote:
sentries cost soo much gas though, so you better be using all other available minerals to canon and expo. and don't expect to tech at all when mutas begin the harass.
agreed. to get enough sentries, you must either cut tech or expo to support your macro.
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This would be fine and dandy if all that SC2 was, was people making an army and then attacking the middle of the map. Unfortunately, there are things like mobility that come into play when considering if a unit is a viable counter.
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This sounds great BUT aren't the mutas 100x more mobile than sentries? couldn't he just walk around sniping nexi and all that?
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On February 26 2010 10:03 ShaperofDreams wrote:
This sounds great BUT aren't the mutas 100x more mobile than sentries? couldn't he just walk around sniping nexi and all that?
Protoss units will be able to destroy a zerg base much faster than mutas destroy a protoss base, therefore the mutas would be better off fighting the protoss force rather than harassing, even though both options are bad.
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@ virtues sips long post, yes it's more expensive but you come out on top eith more than that amount of moneys worth of units at least.
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Just tried sentries vs muta in a match today, all I'm going to say is muta in pvz is imba right now
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On February 26 2010 19:36 Retsukage wrote:
Just tried sentries vs muta in a match today, all I'm going to say is muta in pvz is imba right now
QFT. Hard to keep up with their mutas. I lost a match earlier because of fast muta harass, despite having sentries. They just pump them out so fast, and with the quicker map control, they can expand more to outmatch our economy. Maybe I'm just ranting but we'll see.
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Does the sentry shield protect buildings? Photon cannon specifically?
Because it seems that it takes a horrendous amount of gas to deal with muta, given how bad stalkers are against them. Photon cannon could at least give some really good range to your engagements, while saving you a lot of gas.
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You guys need to get stalkers + sentrys. I keep fighting people who are just massing up sentrys. It doesnt work, infact it makes it easy for me. A group of well placed stalkers with some sentrys for shield would be a good counter for mutas.
I think the problem a lot of protoss are having is they are so use to getting immortals so quick for pwnage that they screw themselves over. I pretty much go muta whenever I scout the robo (and I try to catch it early). You are playing wrong if this is what you're doing against zerg. You should go stargate and then get wraiths first. You can apply pressure and work on your immortals after. This way you can defend against muta and buy some time for immortals. If you do this you gotta scout and see if a hydralisk army is being built before hand. Remember you can always use the gravity lift on roaches to thin out the numbers if a zerg is pushing.
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On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing.
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On February 27 2010 03:34 Medzo wrote:You are playing wrong if this is what you're doing against zerg. You should go stargate and then get wraiths first.
You mean phoenix right?
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On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing.
There is 8 hours of footage on his site.
If you could give date and preferably time I would be very grateful =)
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EPT
