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Edit - Now that I think about it, I am not sure if this belongs in the Strategy section or not. Any admins wanna help out with that decision feel free! ^^
So I have been reading all about how Mutas are very difficult to deal with in PvZ and in some cases people have said that Protoss simply cannot fight Mutas right now and something needs to be changed. Well I have a couple unit combination's that I've tested vs Mass Mutas, Muta/Ling, and Muta Hydra. I will start with units that don't work vs Mutas.
Pheonix - For some reason the Phoenix dies in a split second vs Mutas even in large numbers. I think Blizzard intended the Phoenix to follow in the foot steps of the sair as a harassment unit. It works well for sniping lone overlords but pales in comparison to sairs when it comes to fighting groups of air units because splash is non - existant.
Stalkers - I attempted massing stalkers vs Mutas and the results were always the same. 40 stalkers vs 32 mutas = mutas win. 40 stalker vs 28 Muta = mutas winn but it was close. If zerg even adds any lings to the mix you just won't stand a chance.
Archons - Archons are actually great vs mutas except for zerg can get SOOOO many mutas and with the amount of pressure on your gas all game there is no way to make enough archons alone to deal with mutas. Mutas also do not stack like before so the splash is not as effective.
Void Rays - Well they only attack one unit at a time and for a pretty long time. Against a large number of Mutas they stand no chance.
So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right. There is just no way for Protoss to deal with mutas. Even after knowing they are coming and having plenty of time to prepare a muta-ling army would roll me so fast. So I searched the Tech-Tree in the help menu and found something really surprising to me. That cute lil snow globe they call the 'sentry' in the stats has a green box that says, "Strong Against, Mutalisk". I thought WHAT?! This thing has 40 HP and 40 Shields... I don't even think it could beat an SCV 1 on 1. So I gave it a whirl. Here are my tests results.
12 Muta vs 9 Sentry = SENTRY WIN! (I know shocking)
24 Muta vs 18 Sentry = Sentry win.
So I realized I don't even need to have as many sentry as they have mutas to stop the mutas. Every test I did of course was while using the Sentry's force field ability that reduces ranged damage by 2. This cuts down the initial blow of the muta from 9 to 7, then the second shot from 3 to 1 and the last shot still doing 1 damage. So after all this I thought okay realistically Zerg will not just have only mutas. So I tested against Muta/Ling and with sentry alone of course they lost. However, when I mixed 10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings, I won with NO problem at all. Collosus kill all the lings while the zeals take the damage, the mutas target the sentry where the sentry always win vs muta in close numbers. I then proceded to try different combinations of units along with the sentry and the safest combination felt like it was collosus + Zeal + sentry, and if you can afford it or have teched to it making templar for storm to help cast on the muta will tip things so far in your favor a counter attack would most likely win the game after the big fight. So those are my findings. Now I am usually playing Zerg on the ladder so if you see me in a game well... ignore what I said here and just try to go collosus on me while I muta ^.^
Just for those who don't have a beta yet and are curious. Money wise it is completely affordable to mass up on Sentry as long as you have both your double gas. Zerg will also need both double gas to support his mutas. Muta cost 100 mins and 100 gas. The sentry cost 50 Mins and 100 gas. This will give you extra minerals to spend on zealots/pylons/gates/ and still have enough to mix in some stalkers and collosus.
Summary. Sentry needs to be at about a 3/4 ratio vs Muta if you want to trade armies and possibly come out on top with 1-2 sentry's left. Your safest bet of course is having 3/4 ratio of Sentry/Muta and also having support by a couple stalkers, templar, and/or archons. Having your zealots around ur sentry also help to pick up some of the bounce damage from the Mutas as well so keep that in mind.
P.S. Sorry if this post was extra long but I just wanted to make it clear how everything worked out for me.
I am open to any feedback if you guys have any! Let me know your thoughts and opinions and if you know of any good builds to get your sentry army up and running. I only tested the unit combos themselves, I haven't tested any specific precise build orders to fight vs mutas. I just know the goal is to get sentrys mixed in with my army and to try not to fall behind in the Sentry vs Muta count or it could be devastating.
Edit -Grammar/Spelling/minor sentence structure. (also it was 18 sentry vs 24 muta not 16)
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It's really unexpected, those little snow balls =)
Also:
So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right.
No, Wow people are never right. Hahaha
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Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ...
I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people 
I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
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This seems awesome. Congrats on the discovery. Sentries have been my favorite unit to follow on the streams and if they are very good en masse that just makes the game so much more fun to watch.
I hope alot of high ranked people read this thread and try it out. Maybe zergs will have to go back to Hydra pushes because people have said that sentries are quite good against roaches aswell.
Again great find man.
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On February 26 2010 01:40 nbMifu wrote:It's really unexpected, those little snow balls =) Also: Show nested quote +So after all the tests and all the failures I had. I began to think, wow people are right. No, Wow people are never right. Hahaha
Lol. Yeah I suppose. The snowglobes are cute though aren't they?
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On February 26 2010 01:41 green.at wrote:Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ... I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
Yeah I know... I know I have probably seen it in the unit board menu but possibly glanced over it like many others to read what the MOTHERSHIP AND CARRIERS DO! ^^ So I forgot all about the tiny lil snow globe that could.
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Speaking of the Mothership, does it also counter mutas? How many mutas do you need to take a Mothership in single combat?
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What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test?
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
mothership is very cost effective vs mutas even by its self.
it's questionable as to the actual amount that one would need to beat a mothership cause you never know how many of them are going to get sucked into the abyss.
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This actually makes sense.
Sentrys can be massed since they come out of gateways, unlike archons or phoenix which takes ages to get out. They only cost 50 minerals each which means you can spend more minerals on zealots than what the zerg can spend minerals on zerlings.
This owns muta/ling, and not just because it is doable but because it is more cost effective as well.
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A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything.
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On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote:
What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test?
ionno about the avg joe but i always ff and try to micro away weakened units
10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings
unit mix = easier time winning. If i was the zerg i'd go in with my mutalisk ignore you little serenity take out the 2 colossus and then move in to finish with muta ling.
also 12 sentry 2 colossus and 10 zealots is not the same cost as 12 muta and 36 lings
Also then you talk about upgrades and micro because obv you need to micro the shield on and if i was zerg i'd already go +1 and def have speed lings
12sentry = 600 mins 1200 gas
2 colossus = 600 mins 400 gas
10 zealots = 1000 mins
2200mins 1600 gas
12 mutas = 1200 mins 1200 gas
36 lings = 900 mins
2100 mins 1200 gas
besides the obviously huge gas difference there is also a mineral difference.
As a zerg player i avoid any large battle as zerg lacks the kind of heavy hitters where you can just ignore what's going on and your units will survive and always focus on dodging the army and hitting up stragglers and expansions.
Late game upgraded phoenix is >> upgraded mutalisk because phoenix is like a zealot has has 1 attack that happens twice fast and they get +5 dmg to light armor and +1 each upgrade to their attack so it's really a +2 along with sentry is only +3 to biological and is a single beam
ofc this is theory crafting.
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lol at all the forcefields you can make.
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On February 26 2010 01:54 0neder wrote:
A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything.
We are talking about the late game, not the early game.
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On February 26 2010 01:58 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:54 0neder wrote:
A guy streaming last night (response?) went quick phoenix to counter mutas and totally owned everything. We are talking about the late game, not the early game.
phoenix are still better late game because by then you could mass a large fleet of them if you see them focusing on air units, slowly transition into carrier + mothership, and you have the great mobility of the phoenix rather than the slow sentry
*edit* and later int he game upgrading air weapons and armor can help sosososo much
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
wow, very well done. i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
i would test this myself but i'm dying to know - how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
I think you'd have to throw in more then 1 sentry something around 3 because if i knew sentry was giving me a hard time i'd take it out first and you can't micro that sentry away because you need it's shield.
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
but don't stalkers win vs mutas in these ratios? how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge)
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On February 26 2010 02:13 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
but don't stalkers win vs mutas in these ratios? how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge)
ofc then you could always upgrade armor as protoss instead of getting +1 attack :D but then there's that dam shield for protoss that also wants to be upgraded
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm
Fuck that! You can make forcefield hearts n shit with mass sentries! :D
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United States7166 Posts
yes Guardian Shield is amazing but you all forgot about banelings which in theory seem to take out Sentry packs extremely easily they're Light units and die in 3 baneling hits. so if all the Sentries are clumped, you bring about 6-9 banelings and take out their entire Sentry force.
anyone willing to get into a custom game and test this out?
i also want to test out larger numbers of armies, along with just a few sentries supporting a stalker/phoenix army. send me a PM with your full game name and i'll msg you
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On February 26 2010 01:48 Ecrilon wrote:
Speaking of the Mothership, does it also counter mutas? How many mutas do you need to take a Mothership in single combat?
I mothership dies fairly fast to large groups of muta. However mixed in witht hat army composition it can help u a great deal.
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On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote:
What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test?
No I didn't take into account the muta micro, however Muta micro isn't as good as it was in sc 1 so in a large fight like that it won't make as big of a difference as it would in say sc 1. However I am sure it could help. Sentry has a much longer range than mutas so they would be getting hit quite a bit still.
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On February 26 2010 01:55 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote:
What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test? ionno about the avg joe but i always ff and try to micro away weakened units 10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings unit mix = easier time winning. If i was the zerg i'd go in with my mutalisk ignore you little serenity take out the 2 colossus and then move in to finish with muta ling. also 12 sentry 2 colossus and 10 zealots is not the same cost as 12 muta and 36 lings Also then you talk about upgrades and micro because obv you need to micro the shield on and if i was zerg i'd already go +1 and def have speed lings 12sentry = 600 mins 1200 gas 2 colossus = 600 mins 400 gas 10 zealots = 1000 mins 2200mins 1600 gas 12 mutas = 1200 mins 1200 gas 36 lings = 900 mins 2100 mins 1200 gas besides the obviously huge gas difference there is also a mineral difference. As a zerg player i avoid any large battle as zerg lacks the kind of heavy hitters where you can just ignore what's going on and your units will survive and always focus on dodging the army and hitting up stragglers and expansions. Late game upgraded phoenix is >> upgraded mutalisk because phoenix is like a zealot has has 1 attack that happens twice fast and they get +5 dmg to light armor and +1 each upgrade to their attack so it's really a +2 along with sentry is only +3 to biological and is a single beam ofc this is theory crafting.
The money comparison you give is true (and nice math ^^) However, in the test that your talking about the sentry, zeal, collosus army came out so far ahead only a couple sentry were even killed.... If the mutas go vs collosus only I mean its only 2 collosus and all those muta will die tot he sentry. Those sentry + zeal can deal with the lings by them self if all the mutas are dead or the toss can retreat knowing all the mutas are dead and start focusing on other units.
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm
It is fail. Somethign about the attack of the sentrys kills mutas so fast. Especially if you get +1 upgrade or +1 upgrade. Its 8 damage per second (with each upgrade + 2 damage) and u need the additional sentrys to keep the forcefield up. Once the force field is down sentry can die pretty fast without that added support.
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On February 26 2010 02:13 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
but don't stalkers win vs mutas in these ratios? how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge)
Yeah I tried this as well. Stalkers can sometimes last a bit longer than sentrys when they have the forcefield helping them but they don't kill mutas nearly as fast as sentrys do.
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On February 26 2010 02:25 Zelniq wrote:
yes Guardian Shield is amazing but you all forgot about banelings which in theory seem to take out Sentry packs extremely easily they're Light units and die in 3 baneling hits. so if all the Sentries are clumped, you bring about 6-9 banelings and take out their entire Sentry force.
anyone willing to get into a custom game and test this out?
i also want to test out larger numbers of armies, along with just a few sentries supporting a stalker/phoenix army. send me a PM with your full game name and i'll msg you
Yeah banelings can hurt sentry but that is what the collosus and zeals are for. I mean if he tries to run around ur zeals then u can try to run your sentry away. However banelings cost gas and if the zerg are doing a heavy muta build they might not have a lot of gas to be massing banelings.
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Stalkers aren't a very good choice, since they deal just their base damage against mutas.
Phoenix are better, since they deal 20 damage to light units, move faster and mutas can't use terrain against them. They can also be affected by the sentry guardian shield, which you should be using in every engagement with mutas, since it reduces their damage by 4.5(or 34.6%).
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I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals
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On February 26 2010 02:27 Dr.Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote:
What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test? No I didn't take into account the muta micro, however Muta micro isn't as good as it was in sc 1 so in a large fight like that it won't make as big of a difference as it would in say sc 1. However I am sure it could help. Sentry has a much longer range than mutas so they would be getting hit quite a bit still.
I see- i don't have a key so i can only watch. Thanks for the clear up. If the sentry does have a huge range muta micro would not help in the least lol.
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On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote:
I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals
I think this case can be made for both sides. Right? If the toss scouts they sure can make some changes too. The point of my original post wasn't to say that you should mass sentrys every game, but to point out if you do scout and see them makign a large group of mutas, Sentrys are certainly the most effective way of dealing with it. Sentrys are cost effective as well, 50 minerals and 100 gas. If they are massing banelings then their muta count might not be as high so you can change up your build with respect to the Zergs change of heart. ^^
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Hmm this is interesting. If sentries are good versus muta because of their shield, does sentry/stalker, sentry/phoenix, or sentry/archon work?
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Great! Now we have two counters to mass mutas: archons and sentries. Just enough to keep balance.
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How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
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On February 26 2010 03:09 Chairman Ray wrote:
Hmm this is interesting. If sentries are good versus muta because of their shield, does sentry/stalker, sentry/phoenix, or sentry/archon work?
I might, but sentrys are not good 'JUST BECAUSE OF SHIELD'. Their attack is very strong vs mutas, It does 8 damage per second (or per attack which is about once every 1.1 seconds). Each upgrade gives it + 2. so when you have 12... 12 X 8 = 96. so the sentry essentially does 96 damage per second to mutas, every 2 seconds a muta pops, if you have support from an archon, templar, phoenix, or a stalker it will also help make this process faster. Upgrades make these even stronger. +3 attack = sentry does 14 damage... which changes the damage to 168 damage per 1.1 seconds. Every second a muta dies and another is injured about 40 hp.
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On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
I would assume its because you need stargates to make corsairs. With sairs, all you need are 6 or so sairs with 1 stargate pumping to defend against mutas since sairs reach critical mass. With pheonixes though, You would need at the very least two stargates pumping to counter the mutas, and the Zerg can switch out of the muta tech any time he wants, thus the remianing pheonixes are then only useful for sniping overlords.
Though I don't have beta so its theorycrafting.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote:
I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals
My guess is this should be the #1 concern for most P having issues with mutas. That's not to say mutas aren't very very strong, but that you're probably not countering appropriately because you're in the dark and overcompensating for a roach rush that isn't coming.
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Sentries are a good counter to mutas, but I much prefer going dt + archon + speedzeal vs mutaling. Archons do fine especially if you have cannon support, and the dt variety is more massable since they're 50 less gas. DTs 1 shot lings and you can just send 1 to each zerg base and completely fuck him. Zealots are... zealots. 1-2 sentries for shield is great, but massing them seems like a poor use of gas.
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On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
One phoenix vs 2 mutas may be a fair fight, but mutas gain effectiveness in larger number since they hit multiple targets, thus increasing their damage output significantly.
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On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote:
I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals
cant you just cast those force shields or what theyre called against banelings?
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On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability.
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On February 26 2010 03:42 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote:
I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals cant you just cast those force shields or what theyre called against banelings?
If you have the APM/Micro necessary to use it than yeah I think it is a great idea. When he comes with banelings just cast a bunch of the force fields to stop or slow them and over the wall sentrys can help kill them. Good idea!
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On February 26 2010 03:45 Dr.Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability.
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
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are u guys forgetting that late game zerg will have guardians or ultras to completly own those cute little sentries you guys keep talking about? why the fuck would anyone only have 1 or 2 types of units late game? if i knew that sentries owned mutas id back them up with support units to take care of the sentries. same way ppl backed muta vs sair with scourge or hydras in sc1.
so in sc2 zerg late game should have a ton of back up units to support mutas. but you should also realize that mutas harass type unit. actually late game it might be alot better to just do guardians+corruptors instead of muta+corruptor. and corruptors shouldnt be underestimated since there ability to completly stop a building from producing units for a short period of time can be game changing. 4 corruptors completly shutting down 4 barracks or 4 gate ways or something is pretty good. u wont be able to make units at all it cost 75 energy per cast. so soon as the duration runs out u can cast more corruption on the barracks/gateways/w/e.
and phoenix=scout.
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you forgot to mention that storm seems to be useless against mutas whereas previously 2 storms would destroy the whole flock. who woulda thought that vanilla would one day produce a sequel where snow globes counter mutas only to be countered themselves by green balls of suicide.
regarding the f12 help menu... it pretty neat but doesnt have the cost for units/buildings and why is it only accessible in-game? should be on the main menu: "help".
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I just got mass fucking muta raped ... I'm gunna sentry these zerg asses
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On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:45 Dr.Frost wrote:On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability. please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
I am not saying their useless. Feel free to indulge yourself on your stream, however Phoenix cost a lot and takes a long time to build. Again you ALREADY have gateways. It is an easier switch you don't have to tech and you don't need to add stargates.
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Some people are taking the post out of context. First of all, Sentry is not meant to just mass as one unit. The idea I was trying to get across is that Sentry is a good counter to zerg massing mutas. If you don't like Sentrys then you are certainly entitled to your opinion. As to the people who keep atatcking me about phoenix, they are NOT as cost affective as a sentry. That is all I am saying, they take MUCH longer to build, cost ALOT more, and you need a different building to make them. If your play is based on having multiple stargates than that is certainly fine. As for the people saying 'there is a counter to this and that'. I am not saying make sentrys and you will win vs every zerg. they are strong vs Muta and that is all. If they having muta then you should definitely mix in sentrys with your army to help deal with them. If they have mass mutas and ultras and banelings like another poster said than obviously you let him macro WAAAY too much. U obviously don't want to mass Sentrys vs Ultras guys come on. There is always a counter to each unit that is why SC 2 is so much fun because you need to have a combination of units. So if you see Zerg go muta, it will help you to add Sentry to that combination.
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With so many sentries would it be worth it to upgrade hallucination to make stalkers to eat some of the damage?
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I think everyone 100% agrees that sentrys as support are very very strong vs mutas, it is just that there was a poster who explained how mass sentrys can beat mass mutas ( 18 sentrys vs 24 mutas ) and got everyone confused about what we are saying when talking about using sentrys.
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On February 26 2010 04:29 jojame wrote:
With so many sentries would it be worth it to upgrade hallucination to make stalkers to eat some of the damage?
Yeah i think hallucination is good for eating damage and scouting as well.
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On February 26 2010 04:31 Teejing wrote:
I think everyone 100% agrees that sentrys as support are very very strong vs mutas, it is just that there was a poster who explained how mass sentrys can beat mass mutas ( 18 sentrys vs 24 mutas ) and got everyone confused about what we are saying when talking about using sentrys.
LOL! I think that was me, I was trying to just compare and contrast the two. I wasn't saying people should 3 gate mass sentry every game. Just saying if u see them adding mutas, add sentry. Just like in sc 1 u would see it and add archons or sairs or templar. Same thing here.
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What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
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On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
Meh... I think the OP was just talking about MASS Muta vs your standard Protoss force. Phoenix are awesome units. I don't know anyone who straight up hates them. They are a good unit. I still think Sentrys are a more cost effective unit in the long haul especially because their guardian shield can protect against roaches, hydra, and muta.
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On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
I think the issue, at least for this thread, is that they're not a complete counter to mutas in large numbers. With that said, phoenix are by no means bad. They kick ass especially with their gravity thing.
Also, why did Blizzard remove the phoenix's old aoe spell? Was it because it was too powerful or what?
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On February 26 2010 01:41 green.at wrote:Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ... I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
lol yeah i find this too yesterday
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On February 26 2010 02:24 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm Fuck that! You can make forcefield hearts n shit with mass sentries! :D
I have a feeling  Much is excited.
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I think people are bashing the phoenix because if the zerg early expands and rushes for mutalisks, it's hard to get enough Stalker and/or phoenix numbers fast enough to deal with a fair number of mutalisks. Remember, we're talking 6-8 mutalisks versus maybe 4 Stalkers and a couple zealots. The timing for getting up a stargate and making enough phoenix would come much too late because if Zerg stockpiles gas and larvae correctly it can produce a mutalisk army large enough to take care of most of what Protoss has at that point. It's the timing for Phoenix thats important here. Anticipating mutalisks and making a stargate may be fine, but that's at the risk of getting steamrolled by a roach force instead of mutalisks.
I think the fastest way a Zerg can get solid number of mutalisks is by expanding early, taking four gas quickly, and relying on speedlings/1 sunken for early defense. Only answer I can think of for Protoss is active scouting of what Zerg is popping with their larvae and checking out tech buildings/number of drones on gas. Maybe some early pressure to force lings instead of drones would buy Protoss some time to tech and/or grab their natural. Looks like Sentinels are a must, as evidenced by this thread. Sentry/Phoenix combo is rather gas heavy so I think using a Zealot/Sentinel combo to pressure early and grabbing the expansion with gas (maybe cannons?) and then Stargate(s) versus Zerg going muta on two bases might work. One base mutalisks looks like it can be held off on 2 gates with Stalkers and Sentry support. The problem now would be modifiying the build to accomodate a sudden shift to a Roach army by Zerg and fine-tuning when it's safe for Protoss to take the natural.
Forgive my theorycrafting even when I lack beta. I REALLY want to test some PvZ timings now....
EDIT: Looks like 1 base muta can pop 6 mutalisks, while producing a good number of lings, around the 8 min mark and begin attacking 20-30 seconds later. I still believe that it's essential to scout the spire or check the number of drones on gas and to keep the army alive, so investing in two sentries to keep lings out while producing Zealot/Stalker from two gates is probably the best way to get the stargate out in time and have enough money for a good number of phoenix. Combine this with guardian shield, and P should be good to go vs. 1 base muta.
Too Long Didn't Read: + Show Spoiler +Stargate timing makes Phoenix hard to mass in time for mutas :[
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Said it before, but will again. If you get obs fast you can scout the spire in time. It does not work when mutas come from 1 base i think. So if you see that the the is bunkering up on 1 base he will come with mass roaches or fast mutas. Either way a forge is useless to cannon up the mineral line vs mutas or the front vs roaches.
Just some cannons to tech to phoenix/immortals.
And yes when you build a forge after robo you will be able to scout in time with obs and cannon up to buy time. Oh and 1-2 sentrys help always.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 26 2010 04:58 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them? I think the issue, at least for this thread, is that they're not a complete counter to mutas in large numbers. With that said, phoenix are by no means bad. They kick ass especially with their gravity thing. Also, why did Blizzard remove the phoenix's old aoe spell? Was it because it was too powerful or what?
They're not, but it's like how scourge aren't a hard counter to sair past critical mass. You still use them before that point to keep sair numbers low for as long as possible.
Time will tell, but it still seems like often a better response than sentries. The OP is describing a hypothetical situation that isn't going to matter because sentries are slow and have shitty range. Maybe eventually you can position them to protect your main mineral line, but you've got a wide base to cover and while they're chasing the mutas, they're vulnerable to get picked off 1 at a time.
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sentries cost soo much gas though, so you better be using all other available minerals to canon and expo. and don't expect to tech at all when mutas begin the harass.
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As the the limit of x as x -> infinity mutalisk * t-t-t ~~~ zu zu zu
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On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
Sentries do 8 damage per 1/2 second = 16 damage a sec
Stalkers do 8 damage per second.
I would not want to mix in stalkers unless you made some already. It would just give more incentive for the muta to pick off sentries first.
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People are missing the point here. The point isn't "what one unit should you mass to counter early/mid game mutas". In SC1 there wasn't such a unit. You generally couldn't make enough sairs to defend against 3hat muta+scourge: instead, you made sairs but ALSO cannoned up your mineral line and supported with dragoons (which suck vs. muta by themselves but contributed. (It is good to have archons later on, of course)
The OP isn't saying "make only sentries against mutas", instead he's saying "sentries are effective against mutas". The counter to mutas might end up being something like "scout spire -> cannon mineral line, make 1 stargate phoenix and put gas toward sentries rather than stalkers (use extra mins for zeals/cannons). add stargates/archons if zerge persists with mutas."
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Sentries do 8 damage per 1/2 second = 16 damage a sec
Which of the following damage is correct?
8+3(to bio) per second or
8 per 1/2 second or
8+3(to bio) per 1/2 second
or something else? Thanks
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I think they just do plain 8 dmg, without any boni. After all it is a caster...
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On February 26 2010 07:40 nodule wrote:
People are missing the point here. The point isn't "what one unit should you mass to counter early/mid game mutas". In SC1 there wasn't such a unit. You generally couldn't make enough sairs to defend against 3hat muta+scourge: instead, you made sairs but ALSO cannoned up your mineral line and supported with dragoons (which suck vs. muta by themselves but contributed. (It is good to have archons later on, of course)
The OP isn't saying "make only sentries against mutas", instead he's saying "sentries are effective against mutas". The counter to mutas might end up being something like "scout spire -> cannon mineral line, make 1 stargate phoenix and put gas toward sentries rather than stalkers (use extra mins for zeals/cannons). add stargates/archons if zerge persists with mutas."
Thanks! Could not have said it better myself!
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On February 26 2010 06:58 CharlieMurphy wrote:
sentries cost soo much gas though, so you better be using all other available minerals to canon and expo. and don't expect to tech at all when mutas begin the harass.
agreed. to get enough sentries, you must either cut tech or expo to support your macro.
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This would be fine and dandy if all that SC2 was, was people making an army and then attacking the middle of the map. Unfortunately, there are things like mobility that come into play when considering if a unit is a viable counter.
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This sounds great BUT aren't the mutas 100x more mobile than sentries? couldn't he just walk around sniping nexi and all that?
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On February 26 2010 10:03 ShaperofDreams wrote:
This sounds great BUT aren't the mutas 100x more mobile than sentries? couldn't he just walk around sniping nexi and all that?
Protoss units will be able to destroy a zerg base much faster than mutas destroy a protoss base, therefore the mutas would be better off fighting the protoss force rather than harassing, even though both options are bad.
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@ virtues sips long post, yes it's more expensive but you come out on top eith more than that amount of moneys worth of units at least.
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Just tried sentries vs muta in a match today, all I'm going to say is muta in pvz is imba right now
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On February 26 2010 19:36 Retsukage wrote:
Just tried sentries vs muta in a match today, all I'm going to say is muta in pvz is imba right now
QFT. Hard to keep up with their mutas. I lost a match earlier because of fast muta harass, despite having sentries. They just pump them out so fast, and with the quicker map control, they can expand more to outmatch our economy. Maybe I'm just ranting but we'll see.
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Does the sentry shield protect buildings? Photon cannon specifically?
Because it seems that it takes a horrendous amount of gas to deal with muta, given how bad stalkers are against them. Photon cannon could at least give some really good range to your engagements, while saving you a lot of gas.
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You guys need to get stalkers + sentrys. I keep fighting people who are just massing up sentrys. It doesnt work, infact it makes it easy for me. A group of well placed stalkers with some sentrys for shield would be a good counter for mutas.
I think the problem a lot of protoss are having is they are so use to getting immortals so quick for pwnage that they screw themselves over. I pretty much go muta whenever I scout the robo (and I try to catch it early). You are playing wrong if this is what you're doing against zerg. You should go stargate and then get wraiths first. You can apply pressure and work on your immortals after. This way you can defend against muta and buy some time for immortals. If you do this you gotta scout and see if a hydralisk army is being built before hand. Remember you can always use the gravity lift on roaches to thin out the numbers if a zerg is pushing.
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On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing.
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On February 27 2010 03:34 Medzo wrote:You are playing wrong if this is what you're doing against zerg. You should go stargate and then get wraiths first.
You mean phoenix right?
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On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing.
There is 8 hours of footage on his site.
If you could give date and preferably time I would be very grateful =)
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Quick question, I'm guessing not, but do the sentry force field's stack up?
What about High Templar and/or Archon versus muta? Is it just not cost effective? Is storm now stack-able as well?
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K sentries are great yes, but they aren't that spambable. not to mention if you have 2 bases, mutas can dance back and forth between your bases with ease. You need to get phoenix imo in combination with stalkers and sentries. Phoenix help to engage the mutas to relieve your probe line while your ground army comes.
Hydra into mutas makes going mass sentries very unfavorable since hydras eat sentries alive so fast.
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In spite of all the theorycrafting here, OP has a point. Sentrys are totally underused. There's no excuse for not getting one for after your first 6-8 lots, not matter the matchup.
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On February 27 2010 19:19 NET wrote:
Quick question, I'm guessing not, but do the sentry force field's stack up?
What about High Templar and/or Archon versus muta? Is it just not cost effective? Is storm now stack-able as well?
Spells in sc never ever ever ever stack.
just think how retarded it would be if they did
"oh, I attack you with 100 roaches."
"I activate guardian shield on TEN sentries, giving me TWENTY RANGED ARMOR!"
"oh, I attack you with 10 ultralisks"
"I activate storm on TEN high templar, doing EIGHT HUNDRED DAMAGE!"
think, man
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On February 27 2010 22:21 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 19:19 NET wrote:
Quick question, I'm guessing not, but do the sentry force field's stack up?
What about High Templar and/or Archon versus muta? Is it just not cost effective? Is storm now stack-able as well? Spells in sc never ever ever ever stack. just think how retarded it would be if they did "oh, I attack you with 100 roaches." "I activate guardian shield on TEN sentries, giving me TWENTY RANGED ARMOR!" "oh, I attack you with 10 ultralisks" "I activate storm on TEN high templar, doing EIGHT HUNDRED DAMAGE!" think, man
"I send down TEN nukes, doing THREE THOUSAND DAMAGE!"
Oh wait that actually works
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This cuts down the initial blow of the muta from 9 to 7, then the second shot from 3 to 1 and the last shot still doing 1 damage.
This is the only important part of the whole debate.
Forget mass sentry or the cost associated with it. A single sentry protecting a group of stalkers will hold off the mutas just fine. You will probably need closer to 3 tho because they would likely be target attacked by the mutas.
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On February 27 2010 07:58 Izzachar wrote:
There is 8 hours of footage on his site.
If you could give date and preferably time I would be very grateful =)
I wrote the comment minutes after the match, so it ends around February 27 2010 04:29 TL time. Translating TL time to Livestream time should not be difficult. Match is worth seeing.
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On February 27 2010 22:21 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 19:19 NET wrote:
Quick question, I'm guessing not, but do the sentry force field's stack up?
What about High Templar and/or Archon versus muta? Is it just not cost effective? Is storm now stack-able as well? Spells in sc never ever ever ever stack. just think how retarded it would be if they did "oh, I attack you with 100 roaches." "I activate guardian shield on TEN sentries, giving me TWENTY RANGED ARMOR!" "oh, I attack you with 10 ultralisks" "I activate storm on TEN high templar, doing EIGHT HUNDRED DAMAGE!" think, man
Well it depends what he means by stacking. Forcefields can overlap and do not have to be placed next to each other perfectly.
Massing sentries is all good, but if your opponent comes at you with unit combinations other than mass muta, you're basically going to have to use force fields to stall for a while in order to buy time to get more units.
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Seems like only matches I lose are vs muta now =/ just lost a pvz where I killed his expansion. He made some mutas and proceeded to rape. Stalkers + sentry or 2 + cannons = fail. My current theory to pvz is just rush zlots everytime .
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some guy tried to do this to me today (mass sentries vs my mass muta) and (thanks to this thread) i blew up his sentries with banelings. GG
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On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing.
Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it.
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What about mass muta/ling ? Sentries won't do well against that
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On February 28 2010 05:17 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing. Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it.
I sifted through Response's video archive and found it for ya. Begins around 2:06. Enjoy the pimp play.
http://www.livestream.com/neoresponse/video?clipId=pla_535b5961-1a8b-417a-811a-62dc8d2b1d58
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On February 28 2010 01:36 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2010 22:21 sob3k wrote:On February 27 2010 19:19 NET wrote:
Quick question, I'm guessing not, but do the sentry force field's stack up?
What about High Templar and/or Archon versus muta? Is it just not cost effective? Is storm now stack-able as well? Spells in sc never ever ever ever stack. just think how retarded it would be if they did "oh, I attack you with 100 roaches." "I activate guardian shield on TEN sentries, giving me TWENTY RANGED ARMOR!" "oh, I attack you with 10 ultralisks" "I activate storm on TEN high templar, doing EIGHT HUNDRED DAMAGE!" think, man Well it depends what he means by stacking. Forcefields can overlap and do not have to be placed next to each other perfectly. Massing sentries is all good, but if your opponent comes at you with unit combinations other than mass muta, you're basically going to have to use force fields to stall for a while in order to buy time to get more units.
yeah its not as if sentries cost more gas than minerals so that minerals would probably be spent on mineral heavy units like zealots or something
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On February 28 2010 06:25 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 05:17 Rothbardian wrote:On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing. Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it. I sifted through Response's video archive and found it for ya. Begins around 2:06. Enjoy the pimp play. http://www.livestream.com/neoresponse/video?clipId=pla_535b5961-1a8b-417a-811a-62dc8d2b1d58
David Kim never had a chance lmao.
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On February 28 2010 06:25 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 05:17 Rothbardian wrote:On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing. Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it. I sifted through Response's video archive and found it for ya. Begins around 2:06. Enjoy the pimp play. http://www.livestream.com/neoresponse/video?clipId=pla_535b5961-1a8b-417a-811a-62dc8d2b1d58
ohhh 2 hours 6 minutes i kept wondering if the link was wrong
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On February 28 2010 06:25 SCnai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 05:17 Rothbardian wrote:On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing. Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it. I sifted through Response's video archive and found it for ya. Begins around 2:06. Enjoy the pimp play. http://www.livestream.com/neoresponse/video?clipId=pla_535b5961-1a8b-417a-811a-62dc8d2b1d58
Nvm works now.
Really nice use of the Phoenixes.
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United States7166 Posts
blargh goddamn stargate builds are so annoying as zerg
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On February 28 2010 07:00 Zelniq wrote:
blargh goddamn stargate builds are so annoying as zerg
During the match people were saying on the chat that Phoenix is gonna get nerfed the next day. Funny thing is, they were almost right. Chrono Boost got nerfed, and this build used it heavily to pump Phoenixes quickly from one Stargate.
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United States7166 Posts
uh ..yeah.. as long as you're not implying that they actually implemented a balance change based off of 1 game, especially in 1 day's notice (they dont just go 'lets nerf this' and patch it..obv got to playtest/Q&A test among other things)
unless youre saying it's only a funny coincidence..
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God phoenixes are terrifying.
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How did david kim actually lose that game? Jesus he had like 4 minutes to throw down an evo chamber and spore colonies. He could have had two at every expo and then out-macroed response hardcore.
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On February 28 2010 06:46 Rothbardian wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 06:25 SCnai wrote:On February 28 2010 05:17 Rothbardian wrote:On February 27 2010 04:29 SCnai wrote:On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous. If someone does not believe this, just wait for the replay of Response P vs dayvie Z. Amazing. Where can I get this? I'd love to watch it. I sifted through Response's video archive and found it for ya. Begins around 2:06. Enjoy the pimp play. http://www.livestream.com/neoresponse/video?clipId=pla_535b5961-1a8b-417a-811a-62dc8d2b1d58 David Kim never had a chance lmao.
A few early spores would have done the trick. I'm sure David never got to that point and paid the price for waiting too long to get one.
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Dude the secret to stopping mutas is just winning with a 1a2a3a rush in the early game. Mutas are not really an option unless the Z FEs....and if Z FEs then P can do a rush and win. Just dont let them get to lair and you are fine.
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Problem is, sure Sentries overwhelm zerg, but all the gas you've spent on teching leaves you with too little for sentry spamming because of all the buildings .- you do need an observer even to know your opponent is making spire.
Imo - Stalkers just need a slight slight buff, i'm thinking something like up it to 12 base damage, and +4 or +8 to armored, this would make them better all-round - consider that the stalker has the same price as a goon in BW and its damage is only 8 +6 to armored - something seems a bit off, and protoss doesn't have that awesome base army - if they buffed stalkers a bit the roach whines would be gone because zerg players would be back to using lings more.
Imo, should be like this.
Zerglings >> Stalkers
Roaches >> Zealots
Stalkers >> Mutalisk
Making stalker a stronger anti-air unit would also reduce certain cheeses, such as peekaboo banshees and void ray nexus-snipe.
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On February 28 2010 13:37 Khaymus wrote:
Dude the secret to stopping mutas is just winning with a 1a2a3a rush in the early game. Mutas are not really an option unless the Z FEs....and if Z FEs then P can do a rush and win. Just dont let them get to lair and you are fine.
I'm going to completely ignore your message, because you don't know what you're talking about
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On February 28 2010 14:28 MaD.pYrO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 13:37 Khaymus wrote:
Dude the secret to stopping mutas is just winning with a 1a2a3a rush in the early game. Mutas are not really an option unless the Z FEs....and if Z FEs then P can do a rush and win. Just dont let them get to lair and you are fine. I'm going to completely ignore your message, because you don't know what you're talking about
Im near 1400 elo and around 150ish games so I have experienced this a good amount of times. If I FE as Zerg the P can just punish me at about 7-8 mins and run over my army. If I stay on one base...not enough gas to utilize muta good.
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EPT
