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On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability.
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On February 26 2010 03:42 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote:
I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals cant you just cast those force shields or what theyre called against banelings?
If you have the APM/Micro necessary to use it than yeah I think it is a great idea. When he comes with banelings just cast a bunch of the force fields to stop or slow them and over the wall sentrys can help kill them. Good idea!
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On February 26 2010 03:45 Dr.Frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability.
please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
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are u guys forgetting that late game zerg will have guardians or ultras to completly own those cute little sentries you guys keep talking about? why the fuck would anyone only have 1 or 2 types of units late game? if i knew that sentries owned mutas id back them up with support units to take care of the sentries. same way ppl backed muta vs sair with scourge or hydras in sc1.
so in sc2 zerg late game should have a ton of back up units to support mutas. but you should also realize that mutas harass type unit. actually late game it might be alot better to just do guardians+corruptors instead of muta+corruptor. and corruptors shouldnt be underestimated since there ability to completly stop a building from producing units for a short period of time can be game changing. 4 corruptors completly shutting down 4 barracks or 4 gate ways or something is pretty good. u wont be able to make units at all it cost 75 energy per cast. so soon as the duration runs out u can cast more corruption on the barracks/gateways/w/e.
and phoenix=scout.
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you forgot to mention that storm seems to be useless against mutas whereas previously 2 storms would destroy the whole flock. who woulda thought that vanilla would one day produce a sequel where snow globes counter mutas only to be countered themselves by green balls of suicide.
regarding the f12 help menu... it pretty neat but doesnt have the cost for units/buildings and why is it only accessible in-game? should be on the main menu: "help".
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I just got mass fucking muta raped ... I'm gunna sentry these zerg asses
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On February 26 2010 03:56 Response wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 03:45 Dr.Frost wrote:On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote:
How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas!
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage
I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer.
Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas.
If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry.
I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas.
For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs!
True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost!
To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs.
About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons.
In actual game play I find making phoenix is very unorthodox, here's why. You usually aren't going 2 stargate, if you are then more power to you but most toss are not going two stargate and zerg has 2 hatchery with larva inject (sometimes at both). They can make 24 muta by the time u can finish 4 phoenix. Then when he comes phoenix just drop like flies. Not only that but Phoenix take forever to build and cost ALOT more than sentrys. You already have the gateways and cyber core in most cases so all you need to do is make the unit. Phoenix are just not as effective in actual game play to pull off. Where sentrys can damage lings, ultra, muta, everything and give you shields and help support the rest of your army with their ability. please see my stream before you say phoenix are useless, I guarantee you're just not using them properly or to their full effectiveness, they are great at so many things its ridiculous.
I am not saying their useless. Feel free to indulge yourself on your stream, however Phoenix cost a lot and takes a long time to build. Again you ALREADY have gateways. It is an easier switch you don't have to tech and you don't need to add stargates.
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Some people are taking the post out of context. First of all, Sentry is not meant to just mass as one unit. The idea I was trying to get across is that Sentry is a good counter to zerg massing mutas. If you don't like Sentrys then you are certainly entitled to your opinion. As to the people who keep atatcking me about phoenix, they are NOT as cost affective as a sentry. That is all I am saying, they take MUCH longer to build, cost ALOT more, and you need a different building to make them. If your play is based on having multiple stargates than that is certainly fine. As for the people saying 'there is a counter to this and that'. I am not saying make sentrys and you will win vs every zerg. they are strong vs Muta and that is all. If they having muta then you should definitely mix in sentrys with your army to help deal with them. If they have mass mutas and ultras and banelings like another poster said than obviously you let him macro WAAAY too much. U obviously don't want to mass Sentrys vs Ultras guys come on. There is always a counter to each unit that is why SC 2 is so much fun because you need to have a combination of units. So if you see Zerg go muta, it will help you to add Sentry to that combination.
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With so many sentries would it be worth it to upgrade hallucination to make stalkers to eat some of the damage?
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I think everyone 100% agrees that sentrys as support are very very strong vs mutas, it is just that there was a poster who explained how mass sentrys can beat mass mutas ( 18 sentrys vs 24 mutas ) and got everyone confused about what we are saying when talking about using sentrys.
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On February 26 2010 04:29 jojame wrote:
With so many sentries would it be worth it to upgrade hallucination to make stalkers to eat some of the damage?
Yeah i think hallucination is good for eating damage and scouting as well.
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On February 26 2010 04:31 Teejing wrote:
I think everyone 100% agrees that sentrys as support are very very strong vs mutas, it is just that there was a poster who explained how mass sentrys can beat mass mutas ( 18 sentrys vs 24 mutas ) and got everyone confused about what we are saying when talking about using sentrys.
LOL! I think that was me, I was trying to just compare and contrast the two. I wasn't saying people should 3 gate mass sentry every game. Just saying if u see them adding mutas, add sentry. Just like in sc 1 u would see it and add archons or sairs or templar. Same thing here.
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What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
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On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
Meh... I think the OP was just talking about MASS Muta vs your standard Protoss force. Phoenix are awesome units. I don't know anyone who straight up hates them. They are a good unit. I still think Sentrys are a more cost effective unit in the long haul especially because their guardian shield can protect against roaches, hydra, and muta.
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On February 26 2010 04:50 N3rV[Green] wrote:
What don't understand is this talk of the phoenix being so bad....response was seriously wrecking zergs with good use of them. Sniping overlords is all they can do huh?
Response cleaned out a mineral line, killed 3 queens, and 4-5 hydra's with ~6 phoenixs.
HOW is that bad? Do people just not know that 4 of them 1 shot a hydra? or that you can wreck mineral lines, or queens, or just about anything not in a larrrge group?
What is it about the phoenix that makes people hate on them?
I think the issue, at least for this thread, is that they're not a complete counter to mutas in large numbers. With that said, phoenix are by no means bad. They kick ass especially with their gravity thing.
Also, why did Blizzard remove the phoenix's old aoe spell? Was it because it was too powerful or what?
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On February 26 2010 01:41 green.at wrote:Its even in the unit board (F12) that sentry > muta ... I didn't read all the "help counter unit xxx" threads cause i thought its only people who are not capable of pressing F12 and reading. It seems your thread will help out some people  I have a build with early charge and sentrys to counter a lot of Z builds... of course i know that it has pretty obvious counters.
lol yeah i find this too yesterday
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On February 26 2010 02:24 FortuneSyn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote:
nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas
how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes
edited for excessive enthusiasm Fuck that! You can make forcefield hearts n shit with mass sentries! :D
I have a feeling  Much is excited.
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I think people are bashing the phoenix because if the zerg early expands and rushes for mutalisks, it's hard to get enough Stalker and/or phoenix numbers fast enough to deal with a fair number of mutalisks. Remember, we're talking 6-8 mutalisks versus maybe 4 Stalkers and a couple zealots. The timing for getting up a stargate and making enough phoenix would come much too late because if Zerg stockpiles gas and larvae correctly it can produce a mutalisk army large enough to take care of most of what Protoss has at that point. It's the timing for Phoenix thats important here. Anticipating mutalisks and making a stargate may be fine, but that's at the risk of getting steamrolled by a roach force instead of mutalisks.
I think the fastest way a Zerg can get solid number of mutalisks is by expanding early, taking four gas quickly, and relying on speedlings/1 sunken for early defense. Only answer I can think of for Protoss is active scouting of what Zerg is popping with their larvae and checking out tech buildings/number of drones on gas. Maybe some early pressure to force lings instead of drones would buy Protoss some time to tech and/or grab their natural. Looks like Sentinels are a must, as evidenced by this thread. Sentry/Phoenix combo is rather gas heavy so I think using a Zealot/Sentinel combo to pressure early and grabbing the expansion with gas (maybe cannons?) and then Stargate(s) versus Zerg going muta on two bases might work. One base mutalisks looks like it can be held off on 2 gates with Stalkers and Sentry support. The problem now would be modifiying the build to accomodate a sudden shift to a Roach army by Zerg and fine-tuning when it's safe for Protoss to take the natural.
Forgive my theorycrafting even when I lack beta. I REALLY want to test some PvZ timings now....
EDIT: Looks like 1 base muta can pop 6 mutalisks, while producing a good number of lings, around the 8 min mark and begin attacking 20-30 seconds later. I still believe that it's essential to scout the spire or check the number of drones on gas and to keep the army alive, so investing in two sentries to keep lings out while producing Zealot/Stalker from two gates is probably the best way to get the stargate out in time and have enough money for a good number of phoenix. Combine this with guardian shield, and P should be good to go vs. 1 base muta.
Too Long Didn't Read: + Show Spoiler +Stargate timing makes Phoenix hard to mass in time for mutas :[
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Said it before, but will again. If you get obs fast you can scout the spire in time. It does not work when mutas come from 1 base i think. So if you see that the the is bunkering up on 1 base he will come with mass roaches or fast mutas. Either way a forge is useless to cannon up the mineral line vs mutas or the front vs roaches.
Just some cannons to tech to phoenix/immortals.
And yes when you build a forge after robo you will be able to scout in time with obs and cannon up to buy time. Oh and 1-2 sentrys help always.
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EPT
