EPTanyone willing to get into a custom game and test this out?
i also want to test out larger numbers of armies, along with just a few sentries supporting a stalker/phoenix army. send me a PM with your full game name and i'll msg you
Secret to stopping Mutas is the Sentry... - Page 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
anyone willing to get into a custom game and test this out? i also want to test out larger numbers of armies, along with just a few sentries supporting a stalker/phoenix army. send me a PM with your full game name and i'll msg you | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 01:48 Ecrilon wrote: Speaking of the Mothership, does it also counter mutas? How many mutas do you need to take a Mothership in single combat? I mothership dies fairly fast to large groups of muta. However mixed in witht hat army composition it can help u a great deal. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 01:52 Misrah wrote: What about muta micro tho? Muta are not all that strong when they are not microed. I am just wondering if you added that into the test? No I didn't take into account the muta micro, however Muta micro isn't as good as it was in sc 1 so in a large fight like that it won't make as big of a difference as it would in say sc 1. However I am sure it could help. Sentry has a much longer range than mutas so they would be getting hit quite a bit still. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 01:55 Virtue wrote: ionno about the avg joe but i always ff and try to micro away weakened units 10 zeals + 2 collosus + 12 sentry vs 12 muta and 36 lings unit mix = easier time winning. If i was the zerg i'd go in with my mutalisk ignore you little serenity take out the 2 colossus and then move in to finish with muta ling. also 12 sentry 2 colossus and 10 zealots is not the same cost as 12 muta and 36 lings Also then you talk about upgrades and micro because obv you need to micro the shield on and if i was zerg i'd already go +1 and def have speed lings 12sentry = 600 mins 1200 gas 2 colossus = 600 mins 400 gas 10 zealots = 1000 mins 2200mins 1600 gas 12 mutas = 1200 mins 1200 gas 36 lings = 900 mins 2100 mins 1200 gas besides the obviously huge gas difference there is also a mineral difference. As a zerg player i avoid any large battle as zerg lacks the kind of heavy hitters where you can just ignore what's going on and your units will survive and always focus on dodging the army and hitting up stragglers and expansions. Late game upgraded phoenix is >> upgraded mutalisk because phoenix is like a zealot has has 1 attack that happens twice fast and they get +5 dmg to light armor and +1 each upgrade to their attack so it's really a +2 along with sentry is only +3 to biological and is a single beam ofc this is theory crafting. The money comparison you give is true (and nice math ^^) However, in the test that your talking about the sentry, zeal, collosus army came out so far ahead only a couple sentry were even killed.... If the mutas go vs collosus only I mean its only 2 collosus and all those muta will die tot he sentry. Those sentry + zeal can deal with the lings by them self if all the mutas are dead or the toss can retreat knowing all the mutas are dead and start focusing on other units. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:10 intrigue wrote: nice! i'm in class and just thinking about how to counter a baneling opening that transitions into muta i've been running into, and didn't know how to fight mutas how does 11 stalkers and 1 sentry perform compared to 12 sentries against mutas? or other mixes edited for excessive enthusiasm It is fail. Somethign about the attack of the sentrys kills mutas so fast. Especially if you get +1 upgrade or +1 upgrade. Its 8 damage per second (with each upgrade + 2 damage) and u need the additional sentrys to keep the forcefield up. Once the force field is down sentry can die pretty fast without that added support. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:13 BlasiuS wrote: This is very interesting, since the main reason sentries counter muta seems to be their shield (reduces each muta attack by 4, that's huge) Yeah I tried this as well. Stalkers can sometimes last a bit longer than sentrys when they have the forcefield helping them but they don't kill mutas nearly as fast as sentrys do. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:25 Zelniq wrote: yes Guardian Shield is amazing but you all forgot about banelings which in theory seem to take out Sentry packs extremely easily they're Light units and die in 3 baneling hits. so if all the Sentries are clumped, you bring about 6-9 banelings and take out their entire Sentry force. anyone willing to get into a custom game and test this out? i also want to test out larger numbers of armies, along with just a few sentries supporting a stalker/phoenix army. send me a PM with your full game name and i'll msg you Yeah banelings can hurt sentry but that is what the collosus and zeals are for. I mean if he tries to run around ur zeals then u can try to run your sentry away. However banelings cost gas and if the zerg are doing a heavy muta build they might not have a lot of gas to be massing banelings. | ||
|
lololol
5198 Posts
Phoenix are better, since they deal 20 damage to light units, move faster and mutas can't use terrain against them. They can also be affected by the sentry guardian shield, which you should be using in every engagement with mutas, since it reduces their damage by 4.5(or 34.6%). | ||
|
aycheff
United States329 Posts
| ||
|
Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:27 Dr.Frost wrote: No I didn't take into account the muta micro, however Muta micro isn't as good as it was in sc 1 so in a large fight like that it won't make as big of a difference as it would in say sc 1. However I am sure it could help. Sentry has a much longer range than mutas so they would be getting hit quite a bit still. I see- i don't have a key so i can only watch. Thanks for the clear up. If the sentry does have a huge range muta micro would not help in the least lol. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote: I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals I think this case can be made for both sides. Right? If the toss scouts they sure can make some changes too. The point of my original post wasn't to say that you should mass sentrys every game, but to point out if you do scout and see them makign a large group of mutas, Sentrys are certainly the most effective way of dealing with it. Sentrys are cost effective as well, 50 minerals and 100 gas. If they are massing banelings then their muta count might not be as high so you can change up your build with respect to the Zergs change of heart. ^^ | ||
|
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
| ||
|
obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
 Just enough to keep balance. | ||
|
Teejing
Germany1360 Posts
So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer. Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas. If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry. I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas. For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs! True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost! To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs. About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons. | ||
|
Dr.Frost
United States389 Posts
On February 26 2010 03:09 Chairman Ray wrote: Hmm this is interesting. If sentries are good versus muta because of their shield, does sentry/stalker, sentry/phoenix, or sentry/archon work? I might, but sentrys are not good 'JUST BECAUSE OF SHIELD'. Their attack is very strong vs mutas, It does 8 damage per second (or per attack which is about once every 1.1 seconds). Each upgrade gives it + 2. so when you have 12... 12 X 8 = 96. so the sentry essentially does 96 damage per second to mutas, every 2 seconds a muta pops, if you have support from an archon, templar, phoenix, or a stalker it will also help make this process faster. Upgrades make these even stronger. +3 attack = sentry does 14 damage... which changes the damage to 168 damage per 1.1 seconds. Every second a muta dies and another is injured about 40 hp. | ||
|
neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote: How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas! So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer. Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas. If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry. I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas. For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs! True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost! To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs. About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons. I would assume its because you need stargates to make corsairs. With sairs, all you need are 6 or so sairs with 1 stargate pumping to defend against mutas since sairs reach critical mass. With pheonixes though, You would need at the very least two stargates pumping to counter the mutas, and the Zerg can switch out of the muta tech any time he wants, thus the remianing pheonixes are then only useful for sniping overlords. Though I don't have beta so its theorycrafting. | ||
|
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote: I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals My guess is this should be the #1 concern for most P having issues with mutas. That's not to say mutas aren't very very strong, but that you're probably not countering appropriately because you're in the dark and overcompensating for a roach rush that isn't coming. | ||
|
Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
| ||
|
Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On February 26 2010 03:20 Teejing wrote: How dare you say phoenix are bad vs mutas? 1 phoeix wins vs 2 mutas! So yeah with 125/100 you beat 200/200 worth of mutas, how is that not good enough? /rage I can understand you want to build some sentry to buy time to get some phoenix, but in the end yes phoenix is the answer. Also the only way for his spire to be fast enough to be scouted too late for your obs is the zerg staying on 1 base, so if he is on 1 base you should get 3 cannons up your mineral line if you got a forge already since the dont cost gas. If you dont have a forge go buy time with sentry. I just can not understand all this hate for the phoenix, he does 20 dmg so you can focus fire the mutas down, sairs would only be better when fighting hitting 5 or more mutas at once and even then you cant snipe mutas. For example: The zerg has 8 mutas split in 2x4 groups, in this situation phoenix at least as good as the good old sairs! True, when the zerg has 12+ mutas i would prefer sairs too!, but if he masses mutas only you can easily build some phoenix and face the with 1/2 cost! To point that out one more time, vs 1-10 mutas phoenix are better, for 10+ mutas sairs would be better, but if the zerg gets 10+ mutas the P should have enough time to get 1/2*mutas+1 phoenixs. About sentry, it is their shield that reduces range damage by 2 that makes them so good vs mutas, not their attack. So instead of massing sentries just get 2-3 to support your phoenix/stalkers/archons. One phoenix vs 2 mutas may be a fair fight, but mutas gain effectiveness in larger number since they hit multiple targets, thus increasing their damage output significantly. | ||
|
7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On February 26 2010 02:42 aycheff wrote: I think it's all a matter of scouting and transition/countering. As a Zerg player if I see a toss massing up sentries to counter and mutas, instead of all those lings I'm going to make some banelings. Viola, sentries are gone in one boom. I don't know why you would have so many lings vs toss anyway unless there are immortals cant you just cast those force shields or what theyre called against banelings? | ||
| ||
