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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
I really only see Banelings + Overlord drop as a counter XD Actually, I think Banebombing could take out nearly all Marine-heavy builds. An early Lair (Spawning Pool, Queen, Extractor, Nest + Lair) could provide for such a build. Of course, Lings would have to "distract" the Marines and Marauders. Overall, pretty solid build you have here. I'll watch those replays, definitely ^_^ | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
and he had 2 base mining for a LONG time while you had only one. You cant really beat 2 base with one base  well you almost did but.. you get the point  edit: I dont think you can 8 pool this build as you'd wall off pretty quickly. You can try though! | ||
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copythis
United States8 Posts
On February 23 2010 08:02 Tomed wrote: I've won like 12 TvZs today using this build. It's pretty hilarious. The only thing I think can beat this is speedling/baneling with decent micro. Here's a rep (Link) of me beating some average player that went banelings. He might've stopped me if he waited a few seconds and brought his lings in with his banelings but alas, my ball of infantry was too big to be stopped. edit: On second thought, Spine Crawlers might be the answer. Think ZvT in BW: You need at least 3 sunkens to stop an early infantry push (sometimes more like 4-5 sunkens if they 3 rax into M&M) I've seen a distinct lack of Spine Crawler usage when I play against Zergs. Hahaha, you did that exact build vs me last night. I'm MDOM if you remember. And I'm still stumped wtf I'm supposed to do against it. Anyway, the problem with spine crawlers is that you open yourself up to some reaper harass on most maps, among other things. The whole early ZvT game seems like such a guessing game to me. I'm starting to think that sacrificing ovies for scouting might be necessary... Even then, they're so slow it's hard to get any reliable info from someone smart enough to hide their tech choice. | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
my question is how do you transition from that should you not eliminate him? I mean true it should work but say you kill his army and set him back severely economically. how do you proceed? personally i like going medivacs but any ideas? | ||
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Tomed
United States176 Posts
On February 23 2010 14:07 Wire wrote: i heart this build. i finally won a TvZ with it. my question is how do you transition from that should you not eliminate him? I mean true it should work but say you kill his army and set him back severely economically. how do you proceed? personally i like going medivacs but any ideas? Here's a game (Link) I just played. He went banelings/speedlings and stopped my push cold. So I just kept my raxes rallied to the front of his base with a nice spread in case he tried to break the contain. I proceeded to expand and get some medivacs. If you watch his last attempt to break my contain he probably could have actually succeeded if he mixed a few more zerglings in. At first I thought it was just bad micro on his part but, after watching the replay on slow, I saw that most of his banelings died before they exploded since there weren't enough lings to soak the damage. It seems that if you open ZvT with anything but speedling/baneling you're screwed. If someone tries an early reaper build you use your speedlings. If they try for a timing push then you morph some of your zerglings and make two Spine Crawlers. Proceed to mutas and break the contain. If you're successful then the game is over. You still need to micro effectively, however. Losing banelings before they explode is dreadfully bad. | ||
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Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
I don't know how much time it takes for the Queen to birth after an early Pool, but by 7-8 minutes into the game, you'd be facing quite a tough army. By 8 minutes, they could easily tech up to Hydras and have too many of them for 20 Marines and 10 Marauders to handle. Not to mention, they can break your wall if they sacrifice some Zerglings; it would keep you supply blocked, which would, suffice to say, stop all production. Show me a replay where the Zerg does not go for a Hatchery; I don't really get why people do that anyways, when Zerg in SC2 can easily support 1 base plays. | ||
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nTerra
Sweden21 Posts
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/28798 Two replays of me sorting out a bio push baneling style. Seems to be the easiest way to do it. It's a bit shady to go for Hydras against such big amounts of Marines, you'd have to mix in roaches as well or something. | ||
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Tomed
United States176 Posts
On February 23 2010 15:28 nTerra wrote: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/28801 http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/28798 Two replays of me sorting out a bio push baneling style. Seems to be the easiest way to do it. It's a bit shady to go for Hydras against such big amounts of Marines, you'd have to mix in roaches as well or something. Those were nice games but neither were the bio push that the OP suggests. I'd yet to see a replay of banelings completely winning against Fallen's build but I'm guessing it's possible. | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
It seems that if you open ZvT with anything but speedling/baneling you're screwed. If someone tries an early reaper build you use your speedlings. If they try for a timing push then you morph some of your zerglings and make two Spine Crawlers. Proceed to mutas and break the contain. If you're successful then the game is over. You still need to micro effectively, however. Losing banelings before they explode is dreadfully bad. It's interesting that you bring this up because I already prepare for a muta transition lol. I don't think that going mutas can break the contain, mainly because by the time your mutas get out terran should be 1/1. In the last 3 games I've played by the time I've pushed into his main i'm 1/1 with combat shields. I usually throw down 3 turrets starting from 1 min before i push to roughly every time i'm over 200 minerals while pumping units. That should deter early muta harrass even should they break out of it. There are a few variations I would suggest to this build from my play experience. The main thing is reactor vs tech lab for your first rax. since my scouting scv is alive generally until I see a warren, i adapt what goes on my first rax. If you see an early warren, I would highly suggest putting tech lab on the first rax, reactor on second, and tech lab on third. It makes for a much more balanced maurauder/marine army, plus the early roaches will be rendered ineffective. Next, if you see zerg going roaches I suggest putting down a turret next to your choke at roughly 32-33 supply, or whenever you can spare some minerals. This is because zerg who goes roach but doesn't intend on ending the game asap usually go not only for burrow but movement while burrowed, making that turret all the more important so you don't get ganked from behind when you push out. Lastly, I suggest saving a scan before you push out. It does mean 1 less mule, and it does hinder your economy a bit, but i find that by the time I'm ready to go I have 28 scvs, which is what you need to saturate a base anyway. The scan is ridiculously handy once again for burrowed units, primarily moving roaches. I try my best to scan zerg main for tech or choke for unit count so I know what I'm going up against. Has saved my hide more than once. Of course as someone else posted +1 armor as soon as +1 weapons is completed. Be very aware that combat shield upgrade is extremely important to this build. Pushing in without combat shield vs pushing in with combat shield makes for a great deal of difference, especially if you go double reactor for a marine heavy army against roaches. I upgraded combat shield late in 2 games and in one it nearly cost me my army. I won six games in a row with this build, cannot emphasize my tearful gratitude towards OP. If anyone wants replays, I can post them up. ^_^v | ||
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Fallen
Canada192 Posts
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Tomed
United States176 Posts
On February 23 2010 16:08 Wire wrote: I won six games in a row with this build, cannot emphasize my tearful gratitude towards OP. If anyone wants replays, I can post them up. ^_^v 28 workers?? Haven't you read this thread? Also you said you push at 1/1 upgrades -- this is far later than Fallen's build suggests. I'd like to see some replays of your build in action. | ||
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Foxhawk
United States41 Posts
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Tomed
United States176 Posts
Also, I'm wondering if my Reactor Barracks at the choke was a giveaway for an early infantry push. Maybe if I put a tech lab or no upgrade at all he would assume some sort of Fact/Starport build. If you watch in the David Kim replays he never builds Reactors on a Barracks -- and tends not to ever upgrade his barracks on the choke. This might actually be a method of tech hiding. You'll notice instead that he will block his choke then build 2 tech barracks and 1 extra non-upgrade rax. So, in total, he's working off of 4 raxes and producing the same amount of units. Check out this David Kim replay (Link) to see what I mean. It's a TvT but he's doing an early bio push using 4 raxes. | ||
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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
Here are the replays for comments vs Roaches http://uploading.com/files/eb891485/BioPushVsRoaches.SC2Replay/ vs FE http://uploading.com/files/m12ede16/BioPushVsZergFE.SC2Replay/ | ||
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Pencils
United States2 Posts
On February 22 2010 23:30 Fallen wrote: 10 supply 11 rax 13 refinery 15 orbital command ~1-2 marine to fend off fast lings 16 supply 17 engineering bay/reactor on first rax 18 rax #2 20 rax #3 21 upgrade weapon damage in engineering bay 22 supply 25 Tech lab on rax #2 30 reactor on rax #3 I got my first win thanks to this strat! A question...as a newb I understand most of the terminology and abbreviations used, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out what the numbers at the beginning of each line means! I've seen this format used in other strats and even researching online does not find me an answer. I'd be grateful if someone would explain what those number mean and why they are not consecutive | ||
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QueueQueue
Canada1000 Posts
On February 24 2010 04:56 Pencils wrote: I'd be grateful if someone would explain what those number mean and why they are not consecutive They represent supply count. So in the example you posted, you would build your supply depot when your first supply is at 10 / 11. | ||
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Pencils
United States2 Posts
They represent supply count. So in the example you posted, you would build your supply depot when your first supply is at 10 / 11. Thanks! | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On February 23 2010 09:46 Fallen wrote: This is a TvZ thread, please keep the protoss builds/theorycrafting out of it . as for mass crawlers, you can transition into siege tank contain/expand pretty easily. The issue with going a 1 base allin like this is that a combo of roaches with burrow/infestors could demolish you completely, or even just waltz on past your force and rape your base, OR mutalisks/nydus can just bypass your push and kill your base. This kind of early pressure into contain + fast tank can work in BW too. I also would like to point out that theres a massive vulnerability to this which also existed in BW which is the speedling backstab. If you overcommit to an attack and he just masses crawlers and speedling backstabs you will lose your base and not be able to kill his. Without the beauty of 2 firebat/2medic walling you're going to have a hard time holding this off. Granted you have supply depots to block with but speedlings should tear through the lower hp depots pretty fast (which also keeps you from building more units which furthermore adds to your problems as terran.) | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
On February 24 2010 06:04 Floophead_III wrote: The issue with going a 1 base allin like this is that a combo of roaches with burrow/infestors could demolish you completely, or even just waltz on past your force and rape your base, OR mutalisks/nydus can just bypass your push and kill your base. This kind of early pressure into contain + fast tank can work in BW too. I also would like to point out that theres a massive vulnerability to this which also existed in BW which is the speedling backstab. If you overcommit to an attack and he just masses crawlers and speedling backstabs you will lose your base and not be able to kill his. Without the beauty of 2 firebat/2medic walling you're going to have a hard time holding this off. Granted you have supply depots to block with but speedlings should tear through the lower hp depots pretty fast (which also keeps you from building more units which furthermore adds to your problems as terran.) This in particular is why I feel rather uncomfortable with leaving my supply depots down and rallying units to the enemy base. On the one hand having backup is extremely critical, on the other hand it makes for a really easy counter attack. the difference i think personally is at that point in time zerg should not have air units out yet, and since terran buildings move so fast you can easily just float a fact or in my case my cc away from the attacking units and just have your army clean up afterwards. if you do this build correctly you should sustain minimal damage in terms of your army and be able to clean up easily. Also in an earlier post I suggested 1/1 attack which is actually not exactly what I meant. What I meant to say is should you mess up the build (forget combat shield) you have to wait for combat shields to be done, at which time you might have 1/1 anyway assuming you queued up properly. I always attack with 1/0, the 1/1 just kicks in at some time during my attack. I will try posting up replays asap. edit: @workers yeah thank you for correcting me it is 22 for a 8 mineral patch base. I thought 22 to myself and then added 6 for gas haha | ||
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Wire
United States494 Posts
2 uploads of my style of play based on this build. I still have much to learn so please point out any flaws you see besides the combat shield, i keep forgetting about that lol. if anyone wants to see my first game using this build where i had to float my cc away let me know i didnt post here because frankly i didn't do a good job. lastly i played Zelniq today using this build and got overwhelmingly crushed by banelings after he fast expoed. I think you have to pressure earlier if a zerg does that. | ||
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