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This is my TvZ timing push.. its quite simple ^^
10 supply
11 rax
13 refinery
15 orbital command
~1-2 marine to fend off fast lings
16 supply
17 engineering bay/reactor on first rax
18 rax #2
20 rax #3
21 upgrade weapon damage in engineering bay
22 supply
25 Tech lab on rax #2
30 reactor on rax #3
so by 7:30 +1 damage finishes, you have a control of about 25-30 units and you attack move teh zerg base! by 8 minute you'll have the marine +10 hp buff researched as well and about 35-40 units. You make marauders from the tech lab barrack, and always double marines from the reactors ones.
Always have a supply depot queued as this build is supply intensive. Always use the mule when you get 50 mana. If you macro well, you'll have an endless stream of marine/marauder coming to support your push.
This beat mass roaches/mass lings/hydras/fast expand and whatever teh zergs have thrown at it so far. The only threat to this build is banelings/lings. If you play smart, you should be able to fend that off pretty easily as well.
You have to stay inside your walls until you get one or both marines upgrade done.
I'll add replays when I wake up later, not sure where I can host them.
heres a replay against #1 in platinum division 6 edit: took out the replay as it seems theres a virus on that upload site =( sorry guys
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After watching the Replay, I'm impressed 
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when i click that link for the replay it tries to download some exe in the background. kind of weird.
anyways, what do you do vs early banelings burrowed? From what i've seen it's tough for any T to pressure against early banelings because they are similar to burrowed lurkers and clear out such a huge amount of units. I usually can 3 base and contain them if they don't expo before i get banelings in position.
terran can't scan all the banelings and ravens are a little further down the tree.
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I'm definitely going to try this. Also worrying about banelings, though.
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Why have Terran players forgotten about the amazing wonders of stim? I rarely seen it in BOs or streams....whats up?
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Probably that's because of the medivacs. Imagine an 8min push in BW with M&Ms with only 1 or 2 medics. Still, i like stim packs an use it most of the time.
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Getting a couple of medivacs out isn't that hard and it can really help the push (not least because it doesn't have to be a push at all but a drop). Can't see it in this build though, since you don't even get a fact.
Could use stim just on the marauders though (or equally small parts of the army) for a slight damage boost when you engage (or if you get a shot at actual building damage).
Looks interesting, might give it a try. Thoughts on transition? I love a mix of medivacs and siege tanks (tank drops being all the stronger, imo), but there's so many places you can go with SC2 T.
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this is pretty much the build I (ab)use as well atm. I do it slightly different though:
I only have 1 rax with reactor and 1 with lab add-on.
I also get a factory when I have the ressources for it -since I can't spend all the res on rines/marauders with just 2 rax-. And then, immediately when the fac is done, I get a starport and do the reactor trick and produce 2 medivacs.
When the medivacs are out all the upgrades are just finished (ie stim, 10hp, +1) and I make the push.
You can also scout to see if he's using some zerglings in which case you can add some Hellions to your army.
This got me from silver league straight into platinum league because I barely lost a game with this. (And I'm really not a great player at all lol)
This also works vs Protoss but you have to scout A LOT to make it work because the Toss has to play a Immortals/zeal/stalker/sentry combination and you can not let him scout, or you're toast.
PS taking advantage of hitting ALT and target firing in the big battle is really really helpful. (I see so little people use this feature yet which is a pity imo.)
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On February 23 2010 02:29 skylife1 wrote:
This also works vs Protoss but you have to scout A LOT to make it work because the Toss has to play a Immortals/zeal/stalker/sentry combination and you can not let him scout, or you're toast.
Add a fast Ghost + EMP vs Protoss instead of Combat Shields.
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On February 23 2010 02:42 CowGoMoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 02:29 skylife1 wrote:
This also works vs Protoss but you have to scout A LOT to make it work because the Toss has to play a Immortals/zeal/stalker/sentry combination and you can not let him scout, or you're toast.
Add a fast Ghost + EMP vs Protoss instead of Combat Shields.
very good point -will definitely try that.
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I also used the Ghost and EMP quite a bit and it helps you to take down the immortals. Unfortunately you're still screwed if the protoss player gets some Colossi instead.
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I've won like 12 TvZs today using this build. It's pretty hilarious. The only thing I think can beat this is speedling/baneling with decent micro. Here's a rep (Link) of me beating some average player that went banelings. He might've stopped me if he waited a few seconds and brought his lings in with his banelings but alas, my ball of infantry was too big to be stopped.
edit: On second thought, Spine Crawlers might be the answer. Think ZvT in BW: You need at least 3 sunkens to stop an early infantry push (sometimes more like 4-5 sunkens if they 3 rax into M&M) I've seen a distinct lack of Spine Crawler usage when I play against Zergs.
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On February 23 2010 06:03 zimms wrote:
I also used the Ghost and EMP quite a bit and it helps you to take down the immortals. Unfortunately you're still screwed if the protoss player gets some Colossi instead.
In that case maybe add valks instead? You should be pushing before he can get more than 1 (any?) colossi out.
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This is a TvZ thread, please keep the protoss builds/theorycrafting out of it .
as for mass crawlers, you can transition into siege tank contain/expand pretty easily.
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On February 23 2010 09:46 Fallen wrote:This is a TvZ thread, please keep the protoss builds/theorycrafting out of it . as for mass crawlers, you can transition into siege tank contain/expand pretty easily.
do you think having stim would hurt this or help it?
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I dont think stim is quite as valuable without medivacs.. and this build doesnt have a lot of gas output to support stim upgrade.
You tend to have a lot of fights against zerg and you cant justify using stim every now and then without medivacs.
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I guess as a Z I would turtle hard, get mutas out and then kill your mineral line (even if you get Turrets, it's minerals not spent on your army).. But this seems like a really goot timing push build.
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if Z goes mas roaches you might consider getting more marauders instead of marines.
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Just played an even mid-high plat game where the Zerg actually fought me off with a mix of roach/hydra. Check out the replay: http://tomed.org/reps/threeRaxloses!.SC2Replay
I made a few micro mistakes in the beginning but still this is the most opposition I've had when doing this build.
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It's interesting that people have said stim isn't useful without medivacs. I remember that in original SC, stim was a must-have.
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I could see an 6-9 Pool (Probably 8 Pool) outrushing this, although it'd be situational (and only on 1v1 maps, unless you're very lucky)
I really only see Banelings + Overlord drop as a counter XD Actually, I think Banebombing could take out nearly all Marine-heavy builds.
An early Lair (Spawning Pool, Queen, Extractor, Nest + Lair) could provide for such a build. Of course, Lings would have to "distract" the Marines and Marauders.
Overall, pretty solid build you have here. I'll watch those replays, definitely ^_^
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make sure to queue up armor as soon as weapon damage finishes.. besides that I think you made a few mistakes of not waiting for a bigger unit count push on your 2nd or 3rd attack. strenght in numbers!
and he had 2 base mining for a LONG time while you had only one. You cant really beat 2 base with one base  well you almost did but.. you get the point
edit: I dont think you can 8 pool this build as you'd wall off pretty quickly. You can try though!
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On February 23 2010 08:02 Tomed wrote:I've won like 12 TvZs today using this build. It's pretty hilarious. The only thing I think can beat this is speedling/baneling with decent micro. Here's a rep ( Link) of me beating some average player that went banelings. He might've stopped me if he waited a few seconds and brought his lings in with his banelings but alas, my ball of infantry was too big to be stopped. edit: On second thought, Spine Crawlers might be the answer. Think ZvT in BW: You need at least 3 sunkens to stop an early infantry push (sometimes more like 4-5 sunkens if they 3 rax into M&M) I've seen a distinct lack of Spine Crawler usage when I play against Zergs.
Hahaha, you did that exact build vs me last night. I'm MDOM if you remember. And I'm still stumped wtf I'm supposed to do against it.
Anyway, the problem with spine crawlers is that you open yourself up to some reaper harass on most maps, among other things.
The whole early ZvT game seems like such a guessing game to me. I'm starting to think that sacrificing ovies for scouting might be necessary... Even then, they're so slow it's hard to get any reliable info from someone smart enough to hide their tech choice.
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i heart this build. i finally won a TvZ with it.
my question is how do you transition from that should you not eliminate him? I mean true it should work but say you kill his army and set him back severely economically. how do you proceed? personally i like going medivacs but any ideas?
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On February 23 2010 14:07 Wire wrote:
i heart this build. i finally won a TvZ with it.
my question is how do you transition from that should you not eliminate him? I mean true it should work but say you kill his army and set him back severely economically. how do you proceed? personally i like going medivacs but any ideas?
Here's a game (Link) I just played. He went banelings/speedlings and stopped my push cold. So I just kept my raxes rallied to the front of his base with a nice spread in case he tried to break the contain. I proceeded to expand and get some medivacs. If you watch his last attempt to break my contain he probably could have actually succeeded if he mixed a few more zerglings in. At first I thought it was just bad micro on his part but, after watching the replay on slow, I saw that most of his banelings died before they exploded since there weren't enough lings to soak the damage.
It seems that if you open ZvT with anything but speedling/baneling you're screwed. If someone tries an early reaper build you use your speedlings. If they try for a timing push then you morph some of your zerglings and make two Spine Crawlers. Proceed to mutas and break the contain. If you're successful then the game is over. You still need to micro effectively, however. Losing banelings before they explode is dreadfully bad.
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I still don't know how a Zerg who properly macros with a Queen will be "Insta Dead" to this build. The ol' 10/11 Pool Queen should be able to pump an incredible amount of Zerglings.Basically, you should have 8 Lings popping every 25 seconds (If you start counting once your first batch is hatched, that is), along with 2 additional Lings every time you gain a Larva.
I don't know how much time it takes for the Queen to birth after an early Pool, but by 7-8 minutes into the game, you'd be facing quite a tough army. By 8 minutes, they could easily tech up to Hydras and have too many of them for 20 Marines and 10 Marauders to handle.
Not to mention, they can break your wall if they sacrifice some Zerglings; it would keep you supply blocked, which would, suffice to say, stop all production.
Show me a replay where the Zerg does not go for a Hatchery; I don't really get why people do that anyways, when Zerg in SC2 can easily support 1 base plays.
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Those were nice games but neither were the bio push that the OP suggests. I'd yet to see a replay of banelings completely winning against Fallen's build but I'm guessing it's possible.
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It seems that if you open ZvT with anything but speedling/baneling you're screwed. If someone tries an early reaper build you use your speedlings. If they try for a timing push then you morph some of your zerglings and make two Spine Crawlers. Proceed to mutas and break the contain. If you're successful then the game is over. You still need to micro effectively, however. Losing banelings before they explode is dreadfully bad.
It's interesting that you bring this up because I already prepare for a muta transition lol. I don't think that going mutas can break the contain, mainly because by the time your mutas get out terran should be 1/1. In the last 3 games I've played by the time I've pushed into his main i'm 1/1 with combat shields. I usually throw down 3 turrets starting from 1 min before i push to roughly every time i'm over 200 minerals while pumping units. That should deter early muta harrass even should they break out of it.
There are a few variations I would suggest to this build from my play experience. The main thing is reactor vs tech lab for your first rax. since my scouting scv is alive generally until I see a warren, i adapt what goes on my first rax. If you see an early warren, I would highly suggest putting tech lab on the first rax, reactor on second, and tech lab on third. It makes for a much more balanced maurauder/marine army, plus the early roaches will be rendered ineffective.
Next, if you see zerg going roaches I suggest putting down a turret next to your choke at roughly 32-33 supply, or whenever you can spare some minerals. This is because zerg who goes roach but doesn't intend on ending the game asap usually go not only for burrow but movement while burrowed, making that turret all the more important so you don't get ganked from behind when you push out.
Lastly, I suggest saving a scan before you push out. It does mean 1 less mule, and it does hinder your economy a bit, but i find that by the time I'm ready to go I have 28 scvs, which is what you need to saturate a base anyway. The scan is ridiculously handy once again for burrowed units, primarily moving roaches. I try my best to scan zerg main for tech or choke for unit count so I know what I'm going up against. Has saved my hide more than once.
Of course as someone else posted +1 armor as soon as +1 weapons is completed. Be very aware that combat shield upgrade is extremely important to this build. Pushing in without combat shield vs pushing in with combat shield makes for a great deal of difference, especially if you go double reactor for a marine heavy army against roaches. I upgraded combat shield late in 2 games and in one it nearly cost me my army.
I won six games in a row with this build, cannot emphasize my tearful gratitude towards OP. If anyone wants replays, I can post them up. ^_^v
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Good suggestions Wire, I'm glad you like the build.
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On February 23 2010 16:08 Wire wrote:
I won six games in a row with this build, cannot emphasize my tearful gratitude towards OP. If anyone wants replays, I can post them up. ^_^v
28 workers?? Haven't you read this thread?
Also you said you push at 1/1 upgrades -- this is far later than Fallen's build suggests. I'd like to see some replays of your build in action.
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Agreed that 1/1 seems very late. In Fallen's original replay (I think it was under some K- name on b.net), he pushes at roughly 7:50 and 50 supply and has only started infantry armor- which takes a long time to research- on 49. In my own (noobish) experience, even if you gas on 13 and have full workers on the gas the whole time, you are going to be flatlining gas. 50 for reactor, 50 for tech lab, 50 for other reactor, 100 for +1, 150 for shields, 25 per marauder (he pushes with 3 in the replay). The 100 gas for +1 armor is hard to fit any earlier.
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Here's another replay of me getting owned by Banelings (Link). I made a couple mistakes such as not queuing up +1 armor after +1 weapon and, once my push failed, I should've scanned his main for tech instead of assuming mutas. I wasted a ton of minerals on Turrets. In the end, however, I think this guy just outplayed the build. He used banelings, speedlings, and pulled workers which caused my push to fail pretty hard. Maybe next time it would be best to instantly back off when I see Banelings and Speedlings used effectively. You'll notice that I had my raxes rallying to his natural and I lost a few extra units that weren't going to accomplish much anyway.
Also, I'm wondering if my Reactor Barracks at the choke was a giveaway for an early infantry push. Maybe if I put a tech lab or no upgrade at all he would assume some sort of Fact/Starport build. If you watch in the David Kim replays he never builds Reactors on a Barracks -- and tends not to ever upgrade his barracks on the choke. This might actually be a method of tech hiding. You'll notice instead that he will block his choke then build 2 tech barracks and 1 extra non-upgrade rax. So, in total, he's working off of 4 raxes and producing the same amount of units. Check out this David Kim replay (Link) to see what I mean. It's a TvT but he's doing an early bio push using 4 raxes.
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On February 22 2010 23:30 Fallen wrote:
10 supply
11 rax
13 refinery
15 orbital command
~1-2 marine to fend off fast lings
16 supply
17 engineering bay/reactor on first rax
18 rax #2
20 rax #3
21 upgrade weapon damage in engineering bay
22 supply
25 Tech lab on rax #2
30 reactor on rax #3
I got my first win thanks to this strat!
A question...as a newb I understand most of the terminology and abbreviations used, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out what the numbers at the beginning of each line means! I've seen this format used in other strats and even researching online does not find me an answer.
I'd be grateful if someone would explain what those number mean and why they are not consecutive
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On February 24 2010 04:56 Pencils wrote:I'd be grateful if someone would explain what those number mean and why they are not consecutive
They represent supply count. So in the example you posted, you would build your supply depot when your first supply is at 10 / 11.
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They represent supply count. So in the example you posted, you would build your supply depot when your first supply is at 10 / 11.
Thanks!
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On February 23 2010 09:46 Fallen wrote:This is a TvZ thread, please keep the protoss builds/theorycrafting out of it . as for mass crawlers, you can transition into siege tank contain/expand pretty easily.
The issue with going a 1 base allin like this is that a combo of roaches with burrow/infestors could demolish you completely, or even just waltz on past your force and rape your base, OR mutalisks/nydus can just bypass your push and kill your base. This kind of early pressure into contain + fast tank can work in BW too. I also would like to point out that theres a massive vulnerability to this which also existed in BW which is the speedling backstab. If you overcommit to an attack and he just masses crawlers and speedling backstabs you will lose your base and not be able to kill his. Without the beauty of 2 firebat/2medic walling you're going to have a hard time holding this off. Granted you have supply depots to block with but speedlings should tear through the lower hp depots pretty fast (which also keeps you from building more units which furthermore adds to your problems as terran.)
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On February 24 2010 06:04 Floophead_III wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 09:46 Fallen wrote:This is a TvZ thread, please keep the protoss builds/theorycrafting out of it . as for mass crawlers, you can transition into siege tank contain/expand pretty easily. The issue with going a 1 base allin like this is that a combo of roaches with burrow/infestors could demolish you completely, or even just waltz on past your force and rape your base, OR mutalisks/nydus can just bypass your push and kill your base. This kind of early pressure into contain + fast tank can work in BW too. I also would like to point out that theres a massive vulnerability to this which also existed in BW which is the speedling backstab. If you overcommit to an attack and he just masses crawlers and speedling backstabs you will lose your base and not be able to kill his. Without the beauty of 2 firebat/2medic walling you're going to have a hard time holding this off. Granted you have supply depots to block with but speedlings should tear through the lower hp depots pretty fast (which also keeps you from building more units which furthermore adds to your problems as terran.)
This in particular is why I feel rather uncomfortable with leaving my supply depots down and rallying units to the enemy base. On the one hand having backup is extremely critical, on the other hand it makes for a really easy counter attack. the difference i think personally is at that point in time zerg should not have air units out yet, and since terran buildings move so fast you can easily just float a fact or in my case my cc away from the attacking units and just have your army clean up afterwards. if you do this build correctly you should sustain minimal damage in terms of your army and be able to clean up easily.
Also in an earlier post I suggested 1/1 attack which is actually not exactly what I meant. What I meant to say is should you mess up the build (forget combat shield) you have to wait for combat shields to be done, at which time you might have 1/1 anyway assuming you queued up properly. I always attack with 1/0, the 1/1 just kicks in at some time during my attack. I will try posting up replays asap.
edit: @workers yeah thank you for correcting me it is 22 for a 8 mineral patch base. I thought 22 to myself and then added 6 for gas haha
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[url blocked]
2 uploads of my style of play based on this build. I still have much to learn so please point out any flaws you see besides the combat shield, i keep forgetting about that lol.
if anyone wants to see my first game using this build where i had to float my cc away let me know i didnt post here because frankly i didn't do a good job.
lastly i played Zelniq today using this build and got overwhelmingly crushed by banelings after he fast expoed. I think you have to pressure earlier if a zerg does that.
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I played Zelniq yesterday and he stopped my initial push with just speedlings. He had banelings for the second wave but he messed up and let them hit the marauder wall, which let me take out his natural. Then I stupidly lost the remainder of the army and he sneaked the gold mineral base. He went around the marauder wall the second time and that was gg. Probably shouldn't have done this build after I told him I was from TL, haha.
replay: http://ifile.it/vgudqik
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Ive also used this build and it works really well if its not scouted. However lately i've been trying to work on a more standard opening that allows tech. I've been trying 2 barracks 1 with tech 1 with reactor, and a factory instead of the 3rd barracks. When the factory is done, get the reactor for it, and pump hellions with your initial army. Once you have 4-6 hellions, move out to his expansion. I find that having infantry in front, and hellions in the back doing AoE damage is really strong early/mid game against roach/zergling armies. If he survives and switches to hydra, I lift the factory and make a tech lab.
Only downside is hidden muta tech. If you don't scout it in time, it's pretty much GG. (damn turrets dont shoot far at all)
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On February 24 2010 08:35 ShadowDrgn wrote:I played Zelniq yesterday and he stopped my initial push with just speedlings. He had banelings for the second wave but he messed up and let them hit the marauder wall, which let me take out his natural. Then I stupidly lost the remainder of the army and he sneaked the gold mineral base. He went around the marauder wall the second time and that was gg. Probably shouldn't have done this build after I told him I was from TL, haha. replay: http://ifile.it/vgudqik
Interesting game. I agree with the guy above, though. Going 3 rax really hurts when they stop your push with banelings. Infantry seems to really suck against mass baneling/speedling so you pretty much need to switch to factories if banelings stop you else the Zerg will walk all over you.
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I haven't had any problems with mutas when I build 3-4 turrets in my base. They're a lot beefier in SC2, and zergs are always attacking me with around 5 mutas, not 9-11 like in SC1. I'm going to try working a factory into the build too and see if that helps out.
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On February 24 2010 10:49 ShadowDrgn wrote:
I haven't had any problems with mutas when I build 3-4 turrets in my base. They're a lot beefier in SC2, and zergs are always attacking me with around 5 mutas, not 9-11 like in SC1. I'm going to try working a factory into the build too and see if that helps out.
Actually I don't think mutas are a problem but if the Zerg counters the push withe banelings and just keeps the pressure on with additional speed/banelings I don't know what the T can really do other than turtle and get some tanks out. I really don't think that even stimmed infantry can stop good baneling/speedling micro.
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i played an interesting game today where the guy runs about 8 banelings into my supply depot, killing it instantly and thus breaking my wall. then he runs in with about 24 speedlings and raped me.
this was when i was putting down my second rax. i thought roaches so i went tech lab but even if i didnt i would have about 8 marines which i dont think can handle that efficiently.
advice?
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I just played a TvZ against Artosis and got rocked pretty hard trying to execute a very similar bio rush. Notice that I do 4 raxes instead of 2 reactors. You can still have the same unit count by the 8 min push and you don't give any tech information away by putting down a reactor at your choke. Regardless, I still got owned.
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On February 24 2010 16:01 Wire wrote:
i played an interesting game today where the guy runs about 8 banelings into my supply depot, killing it instantly and thus breaking my wall. then he runs in with about 24 speedlings and raped me.
this was when i was putting down my second rax. i thought roaches so i went tech lab but even if i didnt i would have about 8 marines which i dont think can handle that efficiently.
advice?
Why would you "think" roaches? You should be scouting as soon as your depot finishes (4-player maps) or as soon as the first rax finishes (2-player maps). You can clearly see if he's going early roaches, FE, or early baneling/speedling. Anyway, post the replay for proper advice.
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On February 24 2010 16:08 Tomed wrote:
You can still have the same unit count by the 8 min push
Dunno, by my count that timing was rather different than the OP's. The BO timings were definitely different. He pushed hard @ (I think these stats are right) 7:50 with 3 marauders and 19 marines with +1 weps and +shields and +1 armor on the way. At the same time this game, T had 3 marauders and ~11-14 marines in the main with no upgrades (+1 weps and +shields on the way). Not sure how much of a difference it would've made. Artosis had ~10 roaches hatched.
Edit, for the record, here is my full annotation of the build in the OP's replay.
<> for buildings
[] for upgrades
10 Supply - <Supply Depot> 1 at choke; minor supply bottleneck here
12 Supply - <Rax> 1 @ Choke
13 Supply - <Gas> 1
Gas Finished -
2 mining SCV to gas
Rax Finished -
Rax SCV to scout
[Comsat]
16 Supply - <Supply Depot> 2
16 Supply - <Rax> 2
18 Supply - <Ebay>
18 Supply - [Reactor] @Rax 1
20 Supply - [Infantry Weapons]
21 Supply - [TechLab] @Rax 2
22 Supply - <Rax> 3
27 Supply - <Supply Depot> 3
27 Supply - [Combat Shield]
29 Supply - <Supply Depot> 4
32 Supply - [Reactor] @Rax 3
35 Supply - <Supply Depot> 5
39 Supply - <Supply Depot> 6
49 Supply - [Infantry Armor]
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why can i not watch these replays? should be able to but says files are missing locally need to be downloaded =/
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Just to warn everyone, that replay link site in the OP has some virus or malware on it. I recommended this thread to a friend and that happened.
Don't download that one!
The build orders look good though :p
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On February 24 2010 09:58 Tomed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 08:35 ShadowDrgn wrote:I played Zelniq yesterday and he stopped my initial push with just speedlings. He had banelings for the second wave but he messed up and let them hit the marauder wall, which let me take out his natural. Then I stupidly lost the remainder of the army and he sneaked the gold mineral base. He went around the marauder wall the second time and that was gg. Probably shouldn't have done this build after I told him I was from TL, haha. replay: http://ifile.it/vgudqik Interesting game. I agree with the guy above, though. Going 3 rax really hurts when they stop your push with banelings. Infantry seems to really suck against mass baneling/speedling so you pretty much need to switch to factories if banelings stop you else the Zerg will walk all over you.
banelings isn't that bad, I don't think I've lost to banelings a single time :S
micro is VERY important, just spread and focus fire as many banelings u can. the problem with banelings is that their hp is low and they are rly slow
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On February 24 2010 16:01 Wire wrote:
i played an interesting game today where the guy runs about 8 banelings into my supply depot, killing it instantly and thus breaking my wall. then he runs in with about 24 speedlings and raped me.
this was when i was putting down my second rax. i thought roaches so i went tech lab but even if i didnt i would have about 8 marines which i dont think can handle that efficiently.
advice?
more units.. theres no way he can have banelings AND 24 speedlings when u have that little units
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push with bunkers against zerg banelings/ling or anything else really it will swing the battle around!
theres no reason to not make bunkers.. you can salvage the useless ones and keep pushing.. its real great
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I think faster pressure with continued reinforcements would make this more effective. Stim would also be a bonus.
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Imo best way is to 1 rax into OC, then add Techlab and second gas
research stim and add second rax with reactor
add third raxx with another techlab (yes)
and mass pump marauders + marines
with stim rdy go and attack, use stim in the right moment and win
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Nvm.. search function is my friend.
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On February 23 2010 12:09 DeepGreen wrote:
It's interesting that people have said stim isn't useful without medivacs. I remember that in original SC, stim was a must-have.
I agree... stim is always better than no stim, even without medivacs, and many times you can escape from a battle that looks unfavorable by stimming and running away.
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On February 24 2010 16:01 Wire wrote:
i played an interesting game today where the guy runs about 8 banelings into my supply depot, killing it instantly and thus breaking my wall. then he runs in with about 24 speedlings and raped me.
this was when i was putting down my second rax. i thought roaches so i went tech lab but even if i didnt i would have about 8 marines which i dont think can handle that efficiently.
advice?
So he wasted 400 minerals and 200 gas to destroy a single depot? lol!
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What about on a map like Blistering Sands? Zerg forces me to fight with a roach/ling army by having roaches kill the rock at the back entrance. Marauders/rines cannot reach the roaches killing the rock. This is before I reach critical mass with marines/marauders, though I find even with 40 rine/rauder a fight away from a choke is awful if you're flanked by speedlings.
If I decide to defend my base, he can go back and forth until I am no longer fighting at a choke (i.e, in my base) since I have to defend two sides. If I don't fight at a choke, zerglings rape me.
I can't catch him out in the open without stim. If I do decide to attack his base, he can bring his units around to flank me along with the new ~8 roaches that pop out.
The only time I've won using this build was an all in with scv's at his base while lifting off my cc. I just ignored all of his units and killed his buildings.
Mass roaches are so goddamn hard to kill. It seems like fights just go: roaches focus marines, once enough marines die zerglings kill everything. I'd try mixing in hellions but it's not hard for roaches to kill those too.
I'm beginning to think zerg ground army was intended to be superior. zerglings + a cheap ranged armored unit is retarded.
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On March 10 2010 00:55 willeesmalls wrote:
What about on a map like Blistering Sands? Zerg forces me to fight with a roach/ling army by having roaches kill the rock at the back entrance. Marauders/rines cannot reach the roaches killing the rock. This is before I reach critical mass with marines/marauders, though I find even with 40 rine/rauder a fight away from a choke is awful if you're flanked by speedlings.
If I decide to defend my base, he can go back and forth until I am no longer fighting at a choke (i.e, in my base) since I have to defend two sides. If I don't fight at a choke, zerglings rape me.
I can't catch him out in the open without stim. If I do decide to attack his base, he can bring his units around to flank me along with the new ~8 roaches that pop out.
The only time I've won using this build was an all in with scv's at his base while lifting off my cc. I just ignored all of his units and killed his buildings.
Mass roaches are so goddamn hard to kill. It seems like fights just go: roaches focus marines, once enough marines die zerglings kill everything. I'd try mixing in hellions but it's not hard for roaches to kill those too.
I'm beginning to think zerg ground army was intended to be superior. zerglings + a cheap ranged armored unit is retarded.
I thought a bunker gave you the range to hit roaches from behind the rock? Toss down one, then Salvage it when you want to push?
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If it does, I must be building at the wrong spot. Neither marines nor marauders will hit 6 or so roaches that take down the rock over ~30s.
Edit: I'm sorry if I'm highjacking the thread: I think the problem with this build is that if zerg doesn't expect me to tech, he just stays T1 and mass roaches. Roaches break ramp/rocks and i lose the game, regardless of how many units i produce because ling/roach army completely rapes un-stimmed infantry if not at a choke. Map is Blistering Sands btw.
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On March 10 2010 02:42 Mystlord wrote:I remember playing against this build yesterday. That's what I get for not scouting . I'm still unconvinced of the effectiveness of this build vs. a mass speedling + baneling opening, which I've been gravitating to more lately.
How does zerg scout? I don't think this build looks any different to a scout drone at 15 food when marines pop out.
Did you tech early? If you made only roaches and zerglings you'd be fine as long as you didn't choke yourself in your base.
Does zerg have to tech early vs terran? If i scan the zerg and don't see a tech, can I win the game with 2-3 banshees before I get overrun with roaches? This is very map specific, Terran has to defend two chokes on Blistering Sands. I'm having tons of trouble with pvz on this map  .
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Here is a replay for all the newer players; copper, bronze, silver of how effective this build can be. At our pathetic levels, there just isn't any stopping the 3 rax timing push if properly macroed. Enjoy
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2407
Edit: Oh yeah, and I also encountered banelings/lings and all it takes is a little bit of micro and you can shoot a majority of them down before they eat up your marines.
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Thanks for the post, I will definitely try out this build a few times vZ since I don't think I've come up with a solid strategy myself yet.
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I've been experimenting with the SC2Calc. I'm looking for it to tell me how long a particular build takes, and then practice it to get as close to the time it says in the application you created as possible.
The direct link for this strategy in SC2Calc is: http://tinyurl.com/386jvdr
Does this look like the right time for things to happen as SC2 stands today? Want to make sure the times are right. Thanks!
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itgl: the sc2 calculator looks like its missing the units? it only builds 2 marines. Also the busy time is over 100% on a few structures, don't know what that's about.
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EPT
