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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On December 18 2013 05:48 fedexfan wrote:Currently working on this : ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HnbIyzq.jpg) The center seems too empty, what can i possible do about it....
there are a lot of problems with this.
first off, the standard ffe will protect three bases. quick third nexus in pvz is impossible for zerg to punish if it can be protected by an already-placed walloff.
second, all ground traffic passes through the centre of the map. being able to park your army in one spot for map control is not conducive to good games; just ask zerus prime. the only way this sort of design works is if the map is intended to be played as a semi-island map and is altered as such - your map is horribly unsuited for this style of play, mostly because of the impossibly easy third.
thirdly, there is an incredible amount of spawn imbalance. (assuming it isn't cross only) the top right and bottom left have no practical option for a fourth base, while the top left and bottom right have an extremely easy fourth base.
there are other less extreme issues with the map but those are the ones that make it absolutely unplayable. work on making playable layouts instead of texturing unplayable maps.
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I fix the map and my buddy Hitman help with the new design and the layout, i did the textures. Shortened the gold make the ramps wider it still needs more eye candy but i will like to know if im heading in the right direction.
The map name is INNER CIRCLE is publish. The new generation of players i have encounter likes this map i have been getting a positive feedback i will like to get some criticize from the real pros on this work in progress page. I will take any advise and work on it thank you.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dCPGIO6.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lcl4P0n.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yumL5zA.jpg) 
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On December 18 2013 06:11 skdeimos wrote:
there are a lot of problems with this.
first off, the standard ffe will protect three bases. quick third nexus in pvz is impossible for zerg to punish if it can be protected by an already-placed walloff.
second, all ground traffic passes through the centre of the map. being able to park your army in one spot for map control is not conducive to good games; just ask zerus prime. the only way this sort of design works is if the map is intended to be played as a semi-island map and is altered as such - your map is horribly unsuited for this style of play, mostly because of the impossibly easy third.
thirdly, there is an incredible amount of spawn imbalance. (assuming it isn't cross only) the top right and bottom left have no practical option for a fourth base, while the top left and bottom right have an extremely easy fourth base.
there are other less extreme issues with the map but those are the ones that make it absolutely unplayable. work on making playable layouts instead of texturing unplayable maps.
The standard FFE you put where the main and natural meet, not at the choke that leads to the center. It was intended to be cross only, but i decided to put mirror 4th's. My idea for this map is to delay your expansion plans a little bit and then take 2 expansions in short period of time... This is what it looks like now :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vrlPdjy.jpg)
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On December 18 2013 07:39 fedexfan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 06:11 skdeimos wrote:
there are a lot of problems with this.
first off, the standard ffe will protect three bases. quick third nexus in pvz is impossible for zerg to punish if it can be protected by an already-placed walloff.
second, all ground traffic passes through the centre of the map. being able to park your army in one spot for map control is not conducive to good games; just ask zerus prime. the only way this sort of design works is if the map is intended to be played as a semi-island map and is altered as such - your map is horribly unsuited for this style of play, mostly because of the impossibly easy third.
thirdly, there is an incredible amount of spawn imbalance. (assuming it isn't cross only) the top right and bottom left have no practical option for a fourth base, while the top left and bottom right have an extremely easy fourth base.
there are other less extreme issues with the map but those are the ones that make it absolutely unplayable. work on making playable layouts instead of texturing unplayable maps. The standard FFE you put where the main and natural meet, not at the choke that leads to the center. It was intended to be cross only, but i decided to put mirror 4th's. My idea for this map is to delay your expansion plans a little bit and then take 2 expansions in short period of time... This is what it looks like now :
The point was, more generally, that there are 3 bases behind one chokepoint. Protoss could gate expand and put down 2 nexus behind forcefields, then have a short, linear push without intervening open space with flanking routes unless the rocks are broken, which zerg can't usually help at a 10min timing. This could all be mitigated by adding more routes into the 3rd base area. In other words if the 3rd base area looked more like the 4th base area.
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On December 18 2013 08:43 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 07:39 fedexfan wrote:On December 18 2013 06:11 skdeimos wrote:
there are a lot of problems with this.
first off, the standard ffe will protect three bases. quick third nexus in pvz is impossible for zerg to punish if it can be protected by an already-placed walloff.
second, all ground traffic passes through the centre of the map. being able to park your army in one spot for map control is not conducive to good games; just ask zerus prime. the only way this sort of design works is if the map is intended to be played as a semi-island map and is altered as such - your map is horribly unsuited for this style of play, mostly because of the impossibly easy third.
thirdly, there is an incredible amount of spawn imbalance. (assuming it isn't cross only) the top right and bottom left have no practical option for a fourth base, while the top left and bottom right have an extremely easy fourth base.
there are other less extreme issues with the map but those are the ones that make it absolutely unplayable. work on making playable layouts instead of texturing unplayable maps. The standard FFE you put where the main and natural meet, not at the choke that leads to the center. It was intended to be cross only, but i decided to put mirror 4th's. My idea for this map is to delay your expansion plans a little bit and then take 2 expansions in short period of time... This is what it looks like now : The point was, more generally, that there are 3 bases behind one chokepoint. Protoss could gate expand and put down 2 nexus behind forcefields, then have a short, linear push without intervening open space with flanking routes unless the rocks are broken, which zerg can't usually help at a 10min timing. This could all be mitigated by adding more routes into the 3rd base area. In other words if the 3rd base area looked more like the 4th base area.
Precisely.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hzOtP4X.png)
Thought I may as well get some input on my own WIP since I'm in here. I've been making modifications to the middle constantly to make it flow better without breaking the nat2nat rush distance, but I'm pretty happy with it now. Thoughts before I continue texturing?
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your Country52798 Posts
On January 07 2013 10:43 The_Templar wrote:Got bored.. + Show Spoiler +Nexii indicate starting locations.
I posted this in January. Most people seemed to like it so I decided that I was awesome enough to try to make this into a more serious map.
Dimensions are 144*144, spawns are in the same spot.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YsBUsBm.jpg)
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^ Don't remember seeing the original, but that looks really cool, templar.
edit:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9sjTi5T.jpg)
I suggest these changes:
1. Widen the area outside the main/nat to give better access to the ramp from which you'll defend the 3rd, and because you need more openness on the map especially with the narrow highgrounds along there.
2. Scoot the gold tighter towards the double ramp. This creates needed open space below / in midmap. It also makes it more uncomfortable to park an army there and defend from the highground. It helps increase the push distance to the enemy 3rd as well, making the gold base more of a high risk 3rd, not just a spot friendly to pushing and map control. Also note the highground bit jutting out elongating the path on that side.
3. Scoot the lowground 3rd further into the corner. This increases the push distance and makes this base more attractive as a 3rd base in all cases (being safer by distance). It also brings it nearer to the blocked ramp, making that worthwhile to open and use for the defender. Added a pod to give some defensive / sneaky terrain and use the extra space created; doubles as overlord spot.
4. Scoot this base farther from the main so that it can be taken more safely by enemy in that expansion pattern. No way to warp in from pylons above and less siege tank coverage. Added the partial walling bits to fit in with the jutting bit mentioned in (2) and give it some seclusion / defendability.
@skdeimos, no offense intended but Cloud Kingdom just seems like a better version of the same thing. I like yours though except that the highground center bases seem unlikely to be taken by both players at the same time for very long, making them sort of winners bases. If they were gold, they'd serve more of a purpose on this map, without being too terribly offensive as terran map control gold PF gg outposts.
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On December 18 2013 11:11 EatThePath wrote:
^ Don't remember seeing the original, but that looks really cool, templar.
@skdeimos, no offense intended but Cloud Kingdom just seems like a better version of the same thing. I like yours though except that the highground center bases seem unlikely to be taken by both players at the same time for very long, making them sort of winners bases. If they were gold, they'd serve more of a purpose on this map, without being too terribly offensive as terran map control gold PF gg outposts.
Right. I was kinda thinking that when I designed the map that it felt very Cloud Kingdom-y. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the concept I was going for (tall, skinny map, with a forward nat and absurdly short nat2nat with rocks broken) without either: gutting the flow of the center, or doing a Cloud Kingdom center, which essentially pigeonholes the sides and fourth base of the map to be essentially the same as Cloud Kingdom.
Anyways I'm hoping that the dynamic with the nat backdoor affecting the rush distance coupled with the farther, chokier third will make it play differently than Cloud Kingdom. I actually feel that the 4base Z vs 3base T macro game plays very similarly to Bel'Shir, which isn't a bad thing. (The only matchup I've played as a test was TvZ.)
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On December 18 2013 11:30 skdeimos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:11 EatThePath wrote:
^ Don't remember seeing the original, but that looks really cool, templar.
@skdeimos, no offense intended but Cloud Kingdom just seems like a better version of the same thing. I like yours though except that the highground center bases seem unlikely to be taken by both players at the same time for very long, making them sort of winners bases. If they were gold, they'd serve more of a purpose on this map, without being too terribly offensive as terran map control gold PF gg outposts. Right. I was kinda thinking that when I designed the map that it felt very Cloud Kingdom-y. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get the concept I was going for (tall, skinny map, with a forward nat and absurdly short nat2nat with rocks broken) without either: gutting the flow of the center, or doing a Cloud Kingdom center, which essentially pigeonholes the sides and fourth base of the map to be essentially the same as Cloud Kingdom. Anyways I'm hoping that the dynamic with the nat backdoor affecting the rush distance coupled with the farther, chokier third will make it play differently than Cloud Kingdom. I actually feel that the 4base Z vs 3base T macro game plays very similarly to Bel'Shir, which isn't a bad thing. (The only matchup I've played as a test was TvZ.)
Oh I see, makes sense. That is a good point about the 3rd, it would definitely play out distinctly in that case. And I just realized that CK isn't that great in HotS anyway, so a return by a cousin concept would be welcome.
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Made the mains highgrounds. Now... would it make sense to redesign the center in some way which would involve removing the rocks and then connecting the center to the thirds and put rocks on that pathway? Also i'd remove some of the real estate painted in black in order for things to not be so clumped... Cause otherwise i have to abandon that map it seems... Thanks for pointing the flaws.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5PafarC.jpg)
skdeimos, this looks awesome, reminds me of Cloud Kingdom.. Maybe you can split the center highground, put Xel Naga's and that would remove the unnecessary ramp overload also (IMO). I'm not flaming or anything and i might be wrong... Thanks for your feedback on my map
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no worries dude. you're clearly trying and you're doing your best to improve with criticism, and that's just about all anyone could ask. your proposed mspaint changes would be a good start, and once the more urgent issues with the third are resolved we could begin fixing the center.
i've been considering splitting up the centre highground as well, but again, the flow through the center is already constricted, and i dont think i have room to split it up without making the passages through the center unnecessarily narrow. and the map is already something obscene like 124x172, i can't make it any bigger without destroying the rally distances for T.
as for watchtowers, i've never put a watchtower in any of my maps simply because i believe being forced to work for map control leads to better games. for the most part: any game from 2011 on tal'darim altar involves four marines on watchtowers for map control, and any game from 2013 on neo planet s involves constant pokes and prods to feel out the enemy's positioning. it is far more entertaining in my opinion.
E: formatting. also: i happen to be partial to ramps, even without a proper defender's advantage like broodwar. i like having lots of ramps in my maps. even a slight tactical advantage, even without proper defender's advantage, can lead to cool plays. see: any TvT in HotS by Polt. hell, any game where Polt makes tanks, regardless of matchup, is a good argument imo for why we need ramps in this game.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MvJosC3.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CoxbUzM.png)
Sort of inspired by MarcusRife's map and discussion of Gold bases. But then I changed it.
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On December 18 2013 10:13 skdeimos wrote:Thought I may as well get some input on my own WIP since I'm in here. I've been making modifications to the middle constantly to make it flow better without breaking the nat2nat rush distance, but I'm pretty happy with it now. Thoughts before I continue texturing?
Is it just me or is this 90% cloud kingdom?
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On December 18 2013 18:17 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 10:13 skdeimos wrote:Thought I may as well get some input on my own WIP since I'm in here. I've been making modifications to the middle constantly to make it flow better without breaking the nat2nat rush distance, but I'm pretty happy with it now. Thoughts before I continue texturing? Is it just me or is this 90% cloud kingdom?
It did end up turning out similar. Believe it or not, I actually started this as a Crossfire-inspired map, but slowly the unconnected highgrounds morphed as I kept making little changes. Eventually it ended up being a taller and skinner CK.
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Whats up with all these centered high ground main ? Those were my idea ! :p
+ Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/1WKioIq.png
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I made some changes. The position of the 8/2 o'clock is a bit off so I'll probably fix it eventually.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tIXD0xG.jpg)
Old version:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Still too chokey I think. Maybe widen some of the chokes but add rocks?
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Played around with my map a bit :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UMZwPZl.jpg)
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On December 20 2013 02:58 fedexfan wrote:Played around with my map a bit :
I didn't think this was possible, but you did it; you managed to make the 3base turtling problem even worse.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d6VnS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F3qYueC.jpg)
