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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On October 11 2013 08:45 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 07:22 RFDaemoniac wrote:On July 29 2013 07:42 -NegativeZero- wrote:skdeimos: Good layout overall, but the space between the natural and 3rd is too open - it'll be too hard for P to secure the 3rd vs Z. Either narrow this gap or add an obstacle in the middle of that area. Dellron: I like the contrast between open areas and chokes here, but it needs some refining. The 3rd is too open for P, and I don't think there's a quick fix here - you'll have to just adjust all the surrounding terrain to create some good wallable/FF-able chokes. On the other hand, the bridges in the center are so narrow that Z will probably never want to attack through them in the late game. The natural ramp looks like a width 4 ramp, which is too wide - 3 is standard and 2 might even be better here, due to the large backdoor. And the pairs of bases in top left/bottom right are way too close - you basically have 2 bases in one, and if you lose one you're going to lose the other. Latest update: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TC7C0JW.jpg) -Added rocks on 3rd ramps -Shrunk 3rd backdoors slightly -Shrunk side ramps to high ground pods to 1 width - these can't really be used for full army movement anymore (I might still remove the ramps completely) -Added a few more little gaps around the main - blinking in is still possible but you have to control the stalkers well to ensure they don't get stuck outside -Added LoS blockers to (sort of) replace the original BW version's high ground ridges I might increase the width of the bridges in front of the nats if the map turns out too turtly in the late game. Any update on this? I sorta want to play on it. Actually yes - it's (probably) completely finished except for the aesthetics around the borders. If you want I can go ahead and publish it so people can test it out. Edit: Here's what it currently looks like: + Show Spoiler +
mmm glorious flat map. only comment is would like the see the airspace between the two highground bases filled out, maybe a handful of terrain holes/rocks in some locations to add a bit of dynamic.
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open naturals eh...?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HDfw0PE.jpg)
illustration of protoss FFE included.
the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting.
concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything.
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On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything.
That is not a viable FFE; Roaches can attack everything without being in range of the cannon and lings can just run by in to the main. It doesn't defend against any early aggression.
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On October 14 2013 21:37 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything. That is not a viable FFE; Roaches can attack everything without being in range of the cannon and lings can just run by in to the main. It doesn't defend against any early aggression.
Well FFE does not have to be viable in order for a map to be balanced.
Anyways, awesome to see new open nat maps!! Although your map is has even a greater emphasis on offense than the norm, having a huge ledge for reapers in the main and having a gas between the minerals at the nat (which makes it harder to defend the far minerals).
That said, the map is really great because it has so much cool tactical options, the high ground near the nat could allow for a lot of micro with Colossi and Reapers, while also giving an offensive position for a Terran slowly pushing with Siege tanks. The small corridor, if not filled with doodads, is a really cool risk / reward thing, although maybe you can put LOS blockers there and widen the path a bit so it's viable after the early game while still being risky at the early game. About the 4hym1hyg I feel like it should be a bit easier, to to make it the normal 3rd base, since otherwise people will not want to take it compared to the full base which after breaking the rocks, pretty easy.
Overall very cool map, would love to see it in action.
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On October 14 2013 21:37 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything. That is not a viable FFE; Roaches can attack everything without being in range of the cannon and lings can just run by in to the main. It doesn't defend against any early aggression.
The point of FFE in this setting is to provide the option of cannon opening against zerg, so they can't 3hatch before pool every single game. The walling I showed is tight except for 1 hex by the cannon in the minerals, so it should be pretty secure against ling runby. Any roach aggression should have been scouted and cannons added, and there will be a planetary nexus anyway with forcefields. I don't think it would be that bad. The design of the natural also allows you to add buildings gradually to continue creating a better defensive position, like walling off the far geyser with a pylon so nothing can get behind the minerals, or walling the ramp or the alley entrance. btw back in the day players dealt with that sort of aggression without msc.
@mosk Thanks I'm glad you like it.  The alley is a bit narrow for lategame, it's basically 3 forcefields at all points. However at the natural itself it is much wider than normal when pushing through a space like that, so there is a good defensive concave available at the actual site of the attack. Not to mention you can use the middle high ground to shoot from. Not that it'd be easy, but I envision a scenario where zerg went roach hydra and protoss eventually pushes with sentry stalker colossus... the zerg will have to split their army into 2 groups (or just take reinforce as the 2nd army) and play hit and run on one side of the push, always retreating towards the middle of the map and threatening a sandwich.
Anyhow... particular problems like that, or the reaper/blink possibility, can definitely be adjusted without much trouble. Open to more opinions on this.
The first close 4hym1hyg is like a 3/4 base in income rate, so I don't want it to be toooo easy. The "normal 3rd" is also really not that bad as a 3rd base, fairly typical spacing and distance once the rocks are collapsed. I want the small gold base to be something that will pay you back so fast you can fight over it for a minute at the nearby ramp at poor efficiency and still come out ahead if they don't have one. But of course it won't last as long and you'll have to expand again.
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On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything.
I'm a big fan of 4hym1hyg bases. Like you said it allows you to take it quickly and trade inefficiently, but forces you to expand again soon. More unit interactions/deaths and more territory expansion -> faster paced game that is more micro-intensive and presents more opportunities to make large scale decisions. I also like that the high ground punishes you for trying to defend those two chokes as one, but if you can handle it then go ahead The small path in the corners looks like it was made to allow attacking the minerals of the low ground base, but this would only really happen if somebody expands counter clockwise for their 4th (maybe a zerg that took a fast 2+gold bases I guess).
EDIT: and here is today's contribution to open naturals. It's way too far out for current meta, but I'm trying to force you to build buildings out on the map, which is already very choked, so that they are part of the engagement. You only have room for maybe two tech structures to hide in your main.
I'm most happy with the middle brackets and the bases that they overlook. I sort of want to make the lowground between the mains a 4gold1hyg base but I think the density would be too much. I'd probably convert it to a 2p rotational if I did that, but I like how the different spawn locations force different expansion patterns.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G18i2tXl.jpg)
128x128
No close by air spawns
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On October 15 2013 06:26 RFDaemoniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything. I'm a big fan of 4hym1hyg bases. Like you said it allows you to take it quickly and trade inefficiently, but forces you to expand again soon. More unit interactions/deaths and more territory expansion -> faster paced game that is more micro-intensive and presents more opportunities to make large scale decisions. I also like that the high ground punishes you for trying to defend those two chokes as one, but if you can handle it then go ahead The small path in the corners looks like it was made to allow attacking the minerals of the low ground base, but this would only really happen if somebody expands counter clockwise for their 4th (maybe a zerg that took a fast 2+gold bases I guess). EDIT: and here is today's contribution to open naturals. It's way too far out for current meta, but I'm trying to force you to build buildings out on the map, which is already very choked, so that they are part of the engagement. You only have room for maybe two tech structures to hide in your main. I'm most happy with the middle brackets and the bases that they overlook. I sort of want to make the lowground between the mains a 4gold1hyg base but I think the density would be too much. I'd probably convert it to a 2p rotational if I did that, but I like how the different spawn locations force different expansion patterns. 128x128 No close by air spawns
Small corner path is also meant to make the other 4hym1hyg easier to assault. If you go lowground nat -> lowground 4m1g -> clockwise to the full 3rd -> through the rocks to the other 4m1g, your two newest mining bases are incredibly close and easy to camp if you want to turtle. That corner path makes it easy to send in units for harass without being seen, and also makes it possible to flank the defender if they're at the top of the ramp, so it's a much less secure proposition to just sit between the two bases and pivot to meet attacks as they come. In other words it allows good multiprong attack to pull the defender apart.
I like the ideas in your map with the networks of chokepoints, but it's very dense/tight already. 8 bases per player on 128x128 including a gold! And apart from the naturals everything is packed in pretty tight. If people get settled on 3 bases it's going to feel incredibly chokey for the rest of the game basically everywhere, since buildings are taking up the open space as you point out. I don't think it'd be amiss to make it 136x136 and just pull everything apart a little to open up some lategame space in the middle, and decrease the resource density. The highground corner bases at 2,3,7,8 oclock should be 6m1hyg or 4hym1hyg I think, because the full corner base is so secluded and implies a relatively easy steady income once you move that direction. It would help a lot with the map split nothing-to-fight-for syndrome too, since people would mine out giving much better opportunity to relevantly deny new base locations.
Also I still think there should be more room in the main because basic 2base infrastructure would leave like zero room to maneuver. I think player should have the option to keep 2base in the main, if uncomfortably, or build lowground simcity depending on their plan. By 3 base they'll have to build on the lowground anyway.
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This map was previously introduced in post #1543 in this thread as v0.3.1. I have now shortened the name to Bhekar Centaur III. It is now v0.4.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i3zcLPP.jpg)
Here is a big (2060x1680) picture (http://i.imgur.com/9Be26QT.jpg)
Changelog:
- Removed all 4 Xel'Naga towers and their LOS blockers.
- Removed a path that was to the left of the 6 o'clock base (or to the right of the 12 o'clock base). This is previously where a Xel'Naga tower stood.
- Widened the path with 10 mineral mineral wall.
- Lengthened the outmost attack path in an attempt to spread the travel times out
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/67peP1E.png)
v0.4 worker travel times:
- Through gold base: 0:40
- Early game scouting path: 0:45
- Through mineral wall: 1:20
- The long way: 1:40
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I really like the layout on RFDaemonac's map and I see what you're trying to do with the mains but I agree that it's still going to be awkward. A room for a few more buildings on the main would help. Also, reapers might be a problem since they can go behind and hit the mineral lines directly then easily escape.
badgertk, I quite like the design you've got going. I'm not sure what else to say, except that I personally dislike the orientation of the gold bases across the path, so that units going through that area also go through the mineral line. Just my opinion there though; I'll let someone more qualified than me comment on the rest.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5eo1Bay.png)
Meanwhile, I've just been screwing around with the editor some more while procrastinating. Made this. The naturals are somewhat open, as a number of other people have been experimenting with, albiet a little less so. Walling with the nexus is still possible and the rush distance compensates for the openness too.
The 4:00/10:00 bases might be changed to golds since they're so out of the way.
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@badgertk: You should move/condense the big looping outer paths so they are right behind the bases at 2 and 8, making them shorter and allowing players to use them to harass those bases from behind. As they are right now, they're so long and out of the way that they'll probably never be used. Also if you do this you'll be able to shrink the map's dimensions quite a bit, reducing the amount of wasted space at the top left/bottom right corners.
@Coppermantis: you should probably try to spread out the bases a bit more, since right now you have clusters of 5 bases fairly close together and then those corner bases so far away. The pairs of bases at 12/1 and 6/7 especially are extremely close to each other - it should be easy to move the 12/6 bases more toward 11/5.
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On October 20 2013 11:26 -NegativeZero- wrote:
@Coppermantis: you should probably try to spread out the bases a bit more, since right now you have clusters of 5 bases fairly close together and then those corner bases so far away. The pairs of bases at 12/1 and 6/7 especially are extremely close to each other - it should be easy to move the 12/6 bases more toward 11/5.
How about instead of moving the other based, split the corner expansions into 2 separate bases, which is would make for a slight circle syndrome and give the map an expansion amount fit for its size.
Overall I like the map, i wonder if the pods near the 3rd are droppable, if they are then the 3rd might be a bit hard, although it gives more interesting tactical choices. he 4th seems really hard, while it might be close by air to the main in fact it is very far by ground. The only thing that works in favor of taking a 4th is the size of the map, but I think that splitting the corner bases will give a viable 4th that is not too hard.
I think one major problem the map has is that it is really open at the start, there are no easy ways of seeing the possible attack path, I think anyone who makes a map with an open natural should read these guidelines by Barrin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=428673#6
Anyways the map seems very cool, and it's awesome to see what people can do with open naturals.
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Originally the corners were in fact split into two bases, but it was a little awkward. The design changed substantially since then, though, so putting them back shouldn't be hard.
I did read Barrin's post, which is partly what inspired me to work on open natural design. This is the first I've been satisfied with.
If by "seeing the possible attack path" you mean Barrin's "I'm pretty sure easy spotting of movement across the map is key" line, then I've already put in work to fixing that by adding strategic XWTs. I will post a picture once I put together a solution for the bases.
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@ -NegativeZero-
Is a travel time difference of 55 seconds too much? An idea is to have the 2 and 8 o'clock bases be at a lower elevation and have outer path hug the base like you suggested so that it resembles the 4th base on Cloud Kingdom. The initial idea of this long outer path was to make the travel time quite long but have the attack path end above the opponent's third. I made a shorter path blocked by minerals and rocks as an alternative to shorten the travel time but still have it end at an advantageous position. Is mining out the minerals and breaking the rocks a good enough incentive?
If you are concerned about the air space behind the main base, I can always make the back unpathable.
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TPW Nibiru 4p 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q4boqBv.jpg)
This morning I dreamt that someone told me to put a tower in the middle... I didnt
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@copper: I agree with neg you should adjust the bases. It's very easy to splitmap and camp. Also, since the 4th and 5th are so close together it makes the lategame even more one-fight-finish since a successful attack will probably take out both when the defender can't hold either position. The chokepoints will be hellish for zerg too at the ramps to the 4th. My other problem is that the pathways won't be used the way they're designed to be with this base layout. I think the middle should be the focus of the map with all the tricky highground areas available for good ambushes and sneak-arounds if there is good army movement scouting going on. Here is what I would do:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yEPJuIe.png)
+ Show Spoiler [old for comparison] +
You should notice the difference in how the routes interact with the base locations, in that the defender can and should head off attacker movements at forward positions, rewarding players for being out on the map after the 3rd base is secure. Also you can take the 4th "away" from opponent which totally flips the layout but retains the "defend from the middle" aspect.
I think this map has great ideas and I hope it becomes as good as possible. ^^
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Hmm, I really like what you did there with the fourth. I might try something like that out.
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On October 15 2013 06:26 RFDaemoniac wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 21:24 EatThePath wrote:open naturals eh...? illustration of protoss FFE included. the 4hym1hyg are to provide oomph but not overpowering economy when taking 3rd after a prolonged 2base phase, or a good reward for taking a fast 3rd in a dangerous setting. concerned about the 6/12 bases being too close to everything. I'm a big fan of 4hym1hyg bases. Like you said it allows you to take it quickly and trade inefficiently, but forces you to expand again soon. More unit interactions/deaths and more territory expansion -> faster paced game that is more micro-intensive and presents more opportunities to make large scale decisions. I also like that the high ground punishes you for trying to defend those two chokes as one, but if you can handle it then go ahead The small path in the corners looks like it was made to allow attacking the minerals of the low ground base, but this would only really happen if somebody expands counter clockwise for their 4th (maybe a zerg that took a fast 2+gold bases I guess). EDIT: and here is today's contribution to open naturals. It's way too far out for current meta, but I'm trying to force you to build buildings out on the map, which is already very choked, so that they are part of the engagement. You only have room for maybe two tech structures to hide in your main. I'm most happy with the middle brackets and the bases that they overlook. I sort of want to make the lowground between the mains a 4gold1hyg base but I think the density would be too much. I'd probably convert it to a 2p rotational if I did that, but I like how the different spawn locations force different expansion patterns. 128x128 No close by air spawns
i like the overall look but its impossibly chokey.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1DyjuHh.png)
I ended up using both ideas for possible fourths, so it is possible to expand vertically or keep to your corner. The corner seems to be the better option, though.
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A layout i drew in something like 10 minutes , i might submit it in tlmc3.
What do you think ?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qNsE6zr.png)
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On October 24 2013 22:15 IeZaeL wrote:
careful now it might be forbidden in the rules to publish the map anywhere, although hopefully I am reading it wrong.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/flo9Jst.jpg)
