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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On October 01 2013 16:13 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 15:17 EatThePath wrote:
@neg I don't like either. The highground 3/4 base will just make for boring passive games where people take the righthand 3rd and the middle as a 4th and then someone will lose theirs after the big fight. Game possibly could go on if someone took the 4/10 in the meantime. It makes the center an obligatory standoff, not a position in flux you might want to hold.
The lowground one will be impossible to use, since you'd need to maintain control of their highground in order to mine half the patches, and a bio mine push through the narrow gap would be hellish to turn around, or forcefield based army, etc.
However if you turned the lowground bases clockwise 1/3 turn and put them snug up against the cliff where the rocks are, it fixes most of the problems and also just makes the base better and more interesting imo. It would make your highground even more important (while you had that base) making the fight over the trench even more important but not the only option for positioning. You could defend from the lowground as well, and you would need to be ready to move there to meet an attack that comes from the low ground. This version would become better as a stepping stone to the close air 3rd as well imo. Your explanation for why the low-ground base is so difficult to hold actually gave me a good argument to keep it as is, lol. I want it to be completely non-viable as a 3rd and not really be a base which is used very often - basically a late-game option for scrappy situations where players have small armies and are struggling to maintain an income, keeping with the map's small and aggressive nature.
I agree, but make it a full base, no reason for a hard base to be a half one as well, although the high ground option is fine as a half base.
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Hi. I made this map a while ago but there still is work to be done.
The bounds and aesthetics are subject to change / not done.
Here's some pics:
Top view:
+ Show Spoiler +
45° view:
+ Show Spoiler +
mapanalyzer says:
nat2nat probe: 49.8s
main2main probe: 69.6s
Playable area: 132x120 (will grow a bit when bounds and borders are done)
My analyzer skews up the picture ratio (the bigger the window the smaller the image), so I will spare you horrible looking pics of that 
All comments are appreciated! Thank you.
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On October 01 2013 15:17 EatThePath wrote:
@copper I need to think about this more o_O isn't this something you've been playing with for a while? it looks familiar
No, unless by "for a while" you mean maybe a week. It's a relatively recent concept. It could be similar to an earlier work though, I've had a lot of failed stuff I've been toying with.
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I was inspired by NegativeZero's most recent WIP here and the discussion about open naturals. My proportions are still a little awkward but I'm quite happy with how hard it is to move a ground army on the map. Pretty heavy circle syndrome, hopefully a viable way to play air. 55 second main to main rush.
I haven't decided about trying to make the main not blinkable by having a low ground in front of it, or keeping it larger and letting you siege production from the side. See top vs bottom for comparison.
+ Show Spoiler [Overview] +
+ Show Spoiler [nat] +
+ Show Spoiler [corner gold] +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LOtxaQj.jpg) From Semmo's Breeze
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Can you blink to the main without any spotters from the base near it? If so you should add a high ground between the main and that base. Imo without the hole near the main blink stalkers and reapers will be too good, I think it's really needed.
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I'd like to hear some comments regarding the middle bases that are oriented away from the mains. They're supposed to be viable as fourths in some situations, but usually as fifths or even sixths. I previously had them in the same place but on the highground that was extended towards the mains, so it was too easy to set up siege contains on three bases as the ramps to the highground are somewhat narrow and I don't want to make them wider.
![[image loading]](http://abload.de/img/asf_02fes75.png)
![[image loading]](http://abload.de/img/asf_039osj3.png)
Comments on the design in general are also appreciated. I think I'll have to redesign the backdoor entrance to the third at some point...
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I like the idea of that base and I think it could work, but I think you'll need to move either that base or the one right next to the main, since right now the 4th and 5th are way too close by ground. Also I think 7 bases per player is too many especially when 6 of them basically aren't neutral or contestable at all - but on the other hand, the 2 center bases are so close together that neither of them will often ever be taken. Personally I'd remove the gold and the 2 bases in a line with the main on the sides of the map, then add 2 more bases which are a bit more evenly spaced out, in the process reducing the base count to 12.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6WiYQKn.jpg)
Should I keep the middle-ground artificial sections in front of the naturals, or should I change those parts to natural terrain to keep the terrain aesthetics consistent at each level?
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In my opinion you can do what ever you want with the aesthetics as long as you make it clear where you can have units and where are the ramps.
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I like the artificial area in front of the natural. Make it distinct from the main with doodads or a lighting region or something. Definitely need some doodads to cue the eyes on the ramps because it's hard(er) to see vertical ramps.
p.s. you're going to have a sort of ohana syndrome here for ZvT. The 4th and 5th base for each person are close to each other in the same way, making it hard for lategame stability. I feel this takes away from the potential of the map since the positioning of the center will be the most relevant the later the game goes. It'd be nice if the 2/8 bases weren't totally impossible to take anticlockwise, but that isn't the purpose of the map either.
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is it ok to post a map with balance changes here?
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On October 07 2013 18:43 saddaromma wrote:
is it ok to post a map with balance changes here?
If it's also a new melee map that needs layout design work. But it's hard to judge anything with changes to the game.
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On October 07 2013 09:46 EatThePath wrote:
I like the artificial area in front of the natural. Make it distinct from the main with doodads or a lighting region or something. Definitely need some doodads to cue the eyes on the ramps because it's hard(er) to see vertical ramps.
p.s. you're going to have a sort of ohana syndrome here for ZvT. The 4th and 5th base for each person are close to each other in the same way, making it hard for lategame stability. I feel this takes away from the potential of the map since the positioning of the center will be the most relevant the later the game goes. It'd be nice if the 2/8 bases weren't totally impossible to take anticlockwise, but that isn't the purpose of the map either.
I would advocate for this as well and embracing CS, though it does drastically change how people want to move through the middle.
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Where Waters Fall Frozen
I hope it's not plainly obvious from the pictures, but I haven't made a map in ages. However, I suddenly felt like it again and came up with this.
90° view:
http://imgur.com/fGwKxi0]http://i.imgur.com/JnO6npy.jpg
45° view:
http://imgur.com/fGwKxi0]http://i.imgur.com/Qjaeiin.jpg
Map bounds:
Playable: 180x140
Full: 200x168
Special features:
-Main base on same level as outer region; no ramp down from it, but still blockable between the water and the cliff
-No obvious natural or third: The closest is vulnerable cliff harass, the ones directly south and north are close, but takes a longer time to get there
-Heavy use of double height cliffs: Harassable, but not scalable
-Partial gold base in the middle; some gold and some normal minerals; very vulnerable from all over the place
-A weird canyon in the middle; low water level that is pathable
-All the ice around the northern Watch Towers are destructible; one could potentially clear out the whole area
What do you think? I tried to do something a little new and fresh. Was it successful? Also, the theme of the map is a cold barren rock in the ocean, so I've had some difficulty placing appropriate doodads there. Is the map too boring, or is it okay with a kind of minimalistic map in terms of doodads?
It is uploaded as "Where Waters Fall Frozen" on the EU server if anyone wants to try it out (it is the only hit for a search of "fall frozen"). Is it considered impolite or appropriate to upload it to all the servers?
Edit: Replaced outdated images with links instead of image tags.
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You can't have a main on the low ground, it just doesn't work.
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On July 29 2013 07:42 -NegativeZero- wrote:skdeimos: Good layout overall, but the space between the natural and 3rd is too open - it'll be too hard for P to secure the 3rd vs Z. Either narrow this gap or add an obstacle in the middle of that area. Dellron: I like the contrast between open areas and chokes here, but it needs some refining. The 3rd is too open for P, and I don't think there's a quick fix here - you'll have to just adjust all the surrounding terrain to create some good wallable/FF-able chokes. On the other hand, the bridges in the center are so narrow that Z will probably never want to attack through them in the late game. The natural ramp looks like a width 4 ramp, which is too wide - 3 is standard and 2 might even be better here, due to the large backdoor. And the pairs of bases in top left/bottom right are way too close - you basically have 2 bases in one, and if you lose one you're going to lose the other. Latest update: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TC7C0JW.jpg) -Added rocks on 3rd ramps -Shrunk 3rd backdoors slightly -Shrunk side ramps to high ground pods to 1 width - these can't really be used for full army movement anymore (I might still remove the ramps completely) -Added a few more little gaps around the main - blinking in is still possible but you have to control the stalkers well to ensure they don't get stuck outside -Added LoS blockers to (sort of) replace the original BW version's high ground ridges I might increase the width of the bridges in front of the nats if the map turns out too turtly in the late game.
Any update on this? I sorta want to play on it.
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On October 11 2013 07:22 RFDaemoniac wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 07:42 -NegativeZero- wrote:skdeimos: Good layout overall, but the space between the natural and 3rd is too open - it'll be too hard for P to secure the 3rd vs Z. Either narrow this gap or add an obstacle in the middle of that area. Dellron: I like the contrast between open areas and chokes here, but it needs some refining. The 3rd is too open for P, and I don't think there's a quick fix here - you'll have to just adjust all the surrounding terrain to create some good wallable/FF-able chokes. On the other hand, the bridges in the center are so narrow that Z will probably never want to attack through them in the late game. The natural ramp looks like a width 4 ramp, which is too wide - 3 is standard and 2 might even be better here, due to the large backdoor. And the pairs of bases in top left/bottom right are way too close - you basically have 2 bases in one, and if you lose one you're going to lose the other. Latest update: -Added rocks on 3rd ramps -Shrunk 3rd backdoors slightly -Shrunk side ramps to high ground pods to 1 width - these can't really be used for full army movement anymore (I might still remove the ramps completely) -Added a few more little gaps around the main - blinking in is still possible but you have to control the stalkers well to ensure they don't get stuck outside -Added LoS blockers to (sort of) replace the original BW version's high ground ridges I might increase the width of the bridges in front of the nats if the map turns out too turtly in the late game. Any update on this? I sorta want to play on it.
Actually yes - it's (probably) completely finished except for the aesthetics around the borders. If you want I can go ahead and publish it so people can test it out.
Edit: Here's what it currently looks like:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 08 2013 23:16 moskonia wrote:
You can't have a main on the low ground, it just doesn't work.
Thank you for your input. I tried to fix the issue by placing a Xel'Naga Tower in the base, adding destructable ice on the topmost level and adding more space to the main. The Xel'Naga Tower will let you see who's on the ledge so you'll be able to shoot back if someone sieges up their. The destructable ice will prevent anyone who cannot scale cliffs from going to the area that is not revealed by the Xel'Naga Tower. The main is now big enough to account for both hidden tech and hidden proxies even if a scout or the base owner (respectively) get to the Xel'Naga Tower. Not also that thanks to the double height cliffs, the only way to get into the base is through the main opening (and cliff scalers can circumvent the wall-off just barely). Does the main now lack any of the features that a high-level main usually has?
Current stats:
Where Waters Fall Frozen
90° view:
http://imgur.com/ft4b2E0
45° view:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8dV0LAf.jpg)
Map bounds:
Playable: 196x152
Full: 216x168
Special features:
-Main base on same level as outer region; no ramp down from it, but still blockable between the water and the cliff
-No obvious natural or third: The closest is vulnerable cliff harass, the ones directly south and north are close, but takes a longer time to get there
-Heavy use of double height cliffs: Harassable, but not scalable
-Partial gold base in the middle; some gold and some normal minerals; very vulnerable from all over the place
-A weird canyon in the middle; low water level that is pathable
-All the ice around the northern Watch Towers are destructible; one could potentially clear out the whole area
It is uploaded as "Where Waters Fall Frozen" on the EU server if anyone wants to try it out (it is the only hit for a search of "fall frozen"). Is it considered impolite or appropriate to upload it to all the servers?
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@imaniac: you can warp directly into the main from pylons on the cliff above. you'd need to block building there. the rocks blocking the cliff segment make a lost temple type cliff now. generally, I see no reason why the double elevation is used, it just makes awkward ramp areas. you could simply use one elevation change for the middle plateau, and put the main on the highest cliff level creating a normal "upstairs" main. is there a reason you are using a same-level main?
@negzero: very pretty
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On October 11 2013 08:45 -NegativeZero- wrote:Here's what it currently looks like: + Show Spoiler +
This map is sick nasty!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q5JQnoD.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wCMqVKm.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fJvFYi0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iftfeor.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/flo9Jst.jpg)
