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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On November 20 2014 06:43 Meavis wrote:I ment that this takes a while to walk around + Show Spoiler +
Okay, I was overthinking it. No surprise there. Thanks for clearing it up.
On November 20 2014 04:23 Homonuncnunc wrote:
You'd be better off comparing your map to Nimbus or even Frost, for obvious reasons. I think you could probably push the 12/3/6/9 bases further towards the edges to give yourself a little more room to work with in the center. I definitely prefer the look of the dead spaces in the center; it was open enough before, but the ramps weren't with all those rocks.
I agree with your suggestion - if I push the side bases out, I can reduce the dead space between all those ramps and find a better fit for the central bases. Work continues...
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So I am remaking my original layout thanks to feedback. Very rough draft but I'm liking it so far. 144x144 right now, but I do expect it to be a small map.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/w7yabeL.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +
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Hey guys, just looking for feedback on two maps I've remade from Brood War. I've edited them slightly so they fit better with the rules of SC2, but I tried to keep the same general feel as the originals.
Anyway, the two maps are Ashrigo and Circuit Breaker. Ashrigo was a personal fan favorite that ran in the official ladder from 1999-2001, and Circuit Breaker was a Korean map that ran in the Shinhan Bank Proleague from 2010-2011. Both are 4 player maps, often played as 1v1, so in my recreations I've made them to be 2v2 maps where it's easy for teammates to defend one another if cooperating, but in 1v1 players spawn cross position and it's still balanced for that.
Both maps aren't fully polished in regards to art yet, so please pardon any lack of weather effects, really bland terrain, and the like. I'm looking for gameplay and balance feedback right now, not art criticism. On the same note, I created these images using the editor's "map image export" function, so a lot of things aren't quite rendered correctly. Namely, some things appear out of focus because of bad mipmapping, and pretty much all shadows either aren't rendered or are incredibly blocky.
Fair warning, the new images are pretty large, around 3-5MB each and bigger than 4K.
Ashrigo (Ashrigo FE)
Original
New top-down
New perspective
Ashrigo has a slightly open natural, with a slight walk to it from the main's choke ramp. From there, you have to cross a mountain, going up a ramp and then down a ramp, to access your third. This map isn't really designed for 1v1 cross-position in mind, so it would be fairly easy in a 1v1 to take both your third, and the third meant for your missing teammate, since they're so close to one another. There are also two gold bases on the left and right, but on top of breaking down the rocks, you also need to make sure your enemy doesn't siege it from the cliff.
Ashrigo is strong in that there's an easy to use middle ground, a ring around the middle. You can either attack through that open path and risk being spotted by the two Xel'Naga towers overlooking the ring of fire, or you can break down the side rocks and march more sneakily to try and siege your opponent's natural.
The middle Xel'Naga towers have range that shows if someone's captured the middle, while the furthest towers overlook both tertiaries. Additionally, the centermost towers are blocked by curtains (not very visible in the minimap), while there are also curtains to the sides of the ring of fire for sneaking in a forward pylon or other move.
Also, there's a fairly large strip of land without ramps between the upper mountain and each main base. Colossi and reapers can both go over this terrain, so a sneaky forward reaper play is possible if you stick a barracks near the top or bottom rocks.
Cross-position nat2nat is 208 units, which is 74 seconds with a worker. Ouch.
Circuit Breaker (Circuit Breakers FE)
Original
New top-down
New perspective
Circuit Breakers is probably the more pro-focused map. The natural is still a little open, but it's easy to defend the two main choke points that lead into it, and it's closer to the choke ramp than Ashrigo's. Two Xel'Naga towers behind curtains overlook the center of the map, which is the main attack path. You can also wrap around the bottom/top by breaking down the tertiary rocks, granting you direct access to the natural. Tertiaries are overlooked by large cliffs where the enemy can siege for harassment, while the natural and main are both easy targets for air harassing. Golds are blocked off by debris on the ramps.
Cross-position nat2nat is 138 units, which is 49 seconds with a worker, and gives easy access to watch towers with only a few seconds added.
Anyway, I know these aren't the most pro maps out there, but I figured I'd still post them and ask for feedback.
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Getting somewhere and I like it
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/raZdd35.png)
Now 156x156, mains and naturals are scooted like 2 units out
Nat to nat is now ~41 close, ~47 cross
Added a path from the clockwise 3rd to the center, killing that dead zone completely. Now if your opponent parks an army in the middle, you have a stronger path in than before, coming in from your clockwise 3rd, and if they're not prepared you can even have an advantage because of the LoS blockers. I see this as a crucial improvement, and I don't even miss the pseudo-island base concept. Zerg can now take the clockwise 3rd without such dire consequences if the tower gets knocked down, plus they can prepare for it by taking out the rocks in advance a la ZvT Deadwing. A 4-wide ramp there also improves the flow generally, since now it's easier to get into if it's your 3rd, and harder to defend if it's your 4th or 5th, but you can still buy time by hitting the tower.
There's still the dead space behind the center 3rds, but I see that as acceptable because it's useful for scouting and necessary to protect against harassment. Those bases are a bit closer still, plus the mineral line is now out of range from the middle for anything but siege and colossus, and getting into the center is easier. It might be even better to change the center ramps back to 4, but that might cramp the inner base too much.
Thank you for the helpful feedback! Good luck with the new layouts - I would put down my thoughts but I just spent all my free time tonight on this map. Maybe tomorrow.
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@hero_lief
Don't know how I feel about Ashrigo FE in general. But I spot some imba cannon rush placements. Low ground naturals is something I've tried and found that it really works best if you can chose to wall either at the ramp or at your nat. Circuit Breaker was a great map IMO, and I do like your port. I think there is already one port though, so you should check it out. Its a Starbow map, I believe.
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On November 21 2014 04:50 SwedenTheKid wrote:
@hero_lief
Don't know how I feel about Ashrigo FE in general. But I spot some imba cannon rush placements. Low ground naturals is something I've tried and found that it really works best if you can chose to wall either at the ramp or at your nat. Circuit Breaker was a great map IMO, and I do like your port. I think there is already one port though, so you should check it out. Its a Starbow map, I believe.
There are definitely some imba cannon rush spots, I feel the main needs to be shrunk down a bit, and be made closer to the natural. The overall shape worked well in BW, but not so much in SC2. I also hope that the long rush distance helps to fend off cannon rushes.
Just took a look at it, and yeah, it's Starbow. It's a good looking map, but it has some issues regarding the fact that it's Starbow-oriented. For example, reapers are practically useless, while colossi would be incredibly strong.
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Yeah, I have to say I don't like any of the middle/ center low ground areas on Ashrigo FE. The transition from BW to Sc2 just doesn't work like it is. Its to complex and in certain areas just weird for armies to move thru. But I definitely wouldn't scrap it, just make it work better with Sc2. Like those 6 o'clock bases are way to close to each other, and, oh yeah, it needs a 3rd base and possibly a better 4th. Those temple cliffs just make it even more choky. No need to further complicate things.
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Working on texturing and doodads now. Opinions?![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yoEonLT.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HPVbAN1.jpg)
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I'm having trouble with the two forward bases being so close together. Once you take the central one, it's not any harder (and maybe even easier) to defend when you take the next one. I'd encourage you to consider removing that 4th base entirely and use the change to find a improve the position and flow for the central base down into the lower left. The central base still looks too exposed and far away, and the lower left is a bit too isolated. The faraway rich base is a good concept, I just can't imagine it ever being a good idea to actually go in there.
Throughout the map, make sure you look out for inefficient geyser placement (link in case you haven't seen it). I can't tell for sure but it looks like many of them are inefficient.
fighting!
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Adjustments
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zMOlfFy.png)
Getting ready to texture this and push it to its own thread, unless anyone sees glaring problems. One thing I'm not sure about is the compressed mineral lines in the center bases, especially at 4 and 10.
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Thoughts on this new map? Made from scratch, caring about SC2 rather than BW.
Top-down
Completely untextured, just looking for feedback on gameplay, but it'll have a fully original custom tileset when it's ready. It's a 1v1, no golds, rush distance is 138 units (49 seconds).
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@hero_lief
First thoughts
1.Tanks can hit the main from a safe distance. Blink stalker would also be very powerful.
2.Lots of wasted space in the upper left and bottom right corners, as well as 2 bases that would be better off being 1.
3.Forward 3rd is the only real option for Zerg. Its also quite exposed.
4.Watchtowers and their high ground take up space that could be better used.
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On November 21 2014 14:03 Xenotolerance wrote:I'm having trouble with the two forward bases being so close together. Once you take the central one, it's not any harder (and maybe even easier) to defend when you take the next one. I'd encourage you to consider removing that 4th base entirely and use the change to find a improve the position and flow for the central base down into the lower left. The central base still looks too exposed and far away, and the lower left is a bit too isolated. The faraway rich base is a good concept, I just can't imagine it ever being a good idea to actually go in there. Throughout the map, make sure you look out for inefficient geyser placement ( link in case you haven't seen it). I can't tell for sure but it looks like many of them are inefficient. fighting!
Thanks for the feedback. Its funny, I was also worried about the close forward bases. Probably going to set away this WIP for a while and use the experience I've earned to start a new layout. Also, thanks for the link. I had no idea that gas placement was that important.
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Big changes
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v93zU6X.png)
I was looking at this map, and looking at Nimbus, and I thought, 'Why is it that Nimbus has so much more space, and so much better flow, with the same number of bases and smaller bounds than my map?' And the answer is that Nimbus has the first three bases really quite close together, and the fourth is pretty close to the 3rd. So I bit the bullet and moved the counter-clockwise 3rd, and I'm actually surprised at what a difference it makes. I can't believe now that I ever thought it would work the old way.
With this change some of the old elements need adjustment. For example, the collapsible tower might be TOO safe - you could turtle on 3 bases with only one entrance plus a defensive XNT - and that's not terribly interesting given there aren't really any map features to interact with that. Harass is interesting with the high ground pod in the middle of the three bases, plus there's the proxy party place in front of the low-ground 3rd, but it's probably too easy to turtle. I will look at removing either the tower or the other rocks, so that ramp can never be completely blocked off. Maybe bring it down to 3-wide with either the tower or rocks there, or 2-wide with neither... plus the low ground 3rd is REALLY close, so that could change. many options.
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@Xenotolerance
I think that adjustment really adds to the map. It's a big deal - it means you're shifting from overextending to protect your third, to being able to comfortably take it while still having to defend it. It means your workers can actually flee if they're attacked. Plus, it means walking up the middle ramp from your second/third doesn't put you right next to the enemy third's mineral line. Overall a great change.
I do think the collapsible tower is a little bit too safe. I think you should add normal rocks in its place, covering half of the ramp, like what we've seen in Nimbus. Additionally, I think the rocks next to the third should be turned into a collapsible tower. Finally, is that Xel'Naga tower really better on the low ground than the high ground? I think putting it right where the army will be standing most of the time is a little bit much.
Oh, and are your main, natural, and third mineral lines the exact same? It looks like you just copied them, lol. And except for the second gas which was moved, it looks like you did the same thing for the fourths.
@SwedenTheKid
I've taken all of your feedback into careful consideration and made a revised map. Thoughts?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/M1Lr4Jv.jpg)
Tanks can no longer slam the mineral line of the main, or really many mineral lines at all for that matter, besides the forward base. Blink stalkers also can no longer enter the main next to the mineral line.
It's okay to have wasted space in the corners on a 1v1 map like this - just take a look at King Sejong Station, Akilon Wastes, and hell, even Catallena.
Forward base isn't meant to be a third, it's more of a fourth option than anything because it's so forward. The base behind rocks is meant to be the third. I'm contemplating removing the rocks on the ramp or shrinking them down though, perhaps covering only part of the ramp.
I've moved the watch towers onto the same cliff as the corner bases, which have now been combined. This removes the proxy curtains and places curtains to cover the tower. Each tower can spot half of the middle ramps.
Also important to note is that the low ground north and south of the mains will not be pathable, it's going to be cosmetic and partially submerged. Pretend it isn't there.
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Changes:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WXGGWBn.png)
Side path is now open from the start. Rush distance nat to nat is close ~37 cross ~47. I hadn't wanted to open up the side because I was worried about it being too close, but 37 is good enough on a 4p map I think. The defensive XNT is gone.
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@hero
yes I would remove the rocks to make it viable for zerg. All the changes are cool, I think. But I don't see any reason not to make the corner bases bigger and less cramped. Its fine to have some airspace, though. Your right about that.
@Xeno
Great change! Was actually thinking about suggesting you put a viable 3rd there 
Looks like a map I would be comfortable playing on now 
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New map layout. My problems right now are the 3rd base options being hard to take and blink stalkers.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9t2B727.jpg)
Alternate 3rd idea.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 22 2014 08:04 hero_lief wrote:Tanks can no longer slam the mineral line of the main, or really many mineral lines at all for that matter, besides the forward base. Blink stalkers also can no longer enter the main next to the mineral line. It's okay to have wasted space in the corners on a 1v1 map like this - just take a look at King Sejong Station, Akilon Wastes, and hell, even Catallena. Forward base isn't meant to be a third, it's more of a fourth option than anything because it's so forward. The base behind rocks is meant to be the third. I'm contemplating removing the rocks on the ramp or shrinking them down though, perhaps covering only part of the ramp. I've moved the watch towers onto the same cliff as the corner bases, which have now been combined. This removes the proxy curtains and places curtains to cover the tower. Each tower can spot half of the middle ramps. Also important to note is that the low ground north and south of the mains will not be pathable, it's going to be cosmetic and partially submerged. Pretend it isn't there.
This is a cool layout. For now there are lots of little things to get changed, I'm just gonna list what I see.
- Use standard resource layouts! Copy them from tournament maps.
- Cardinal ramps should get replaced by diagonal ramps. You may have to rotate or expand the forward base, but that one in particular should definitely not be a vertical ramp. The center ramps too should be diagonal too, no particular reason not to.
- The natural has an OP cannon rush spot behind the geyser, make sure there's room to walk all the way around the back of the resources.
- For the low ground 3rd, there's no good way to defend. See the proportions guide. You should either have a good place to park your army where you can move defensively for your nat and your 3rd, or enough room in the 3rd for your whole army to be. You'll have to rework that base quite a bit to make that work - I suggest moving the main and nat like 8 units counterclockwise to get enough space. This might require moving the area behind the main too. BTW it's completely normal to have to make big changes, where it starts with a change to one area and ends up cascading around the rest of the map. I just did that myself...
- Right now there's wide spaces where you wouldn't get much action, and tight spaces where you would get lots of action. See the open plain in front of the side bases and the rock tower choke leading to the 3rd. Load up the recent 2p tournament maps (Foxtrot, King Sejong, Overgrowth) and look not just at the general layout, but just exactly how much space there is in the pathways and in front of each base.
Good luck!
On November 22 2014 10:36 SwedenTheKid wrote:New map layout. My problems right now are the 3rd base options being hard to take and blink stalkers.
I like it. Main needs some buffer space behind the 3rd.
wee
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your Country52797 Posts
Mr. SwedenTheKid, your map is broken for blink due to the bizarre shape of the main and its proximity to other areas. Try making the main somewhat closer to circular and separate it from that third as much as possible.
Also, your ramps are all really small.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6nG5gP0.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MP8soii.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/PgLZyHW.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UWmCE9U.jpg)
