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Keep our forum clean! PLEASE post your WIP melee maps in this thread for initial feedback. -Barrin |
On November 27 2014 09:22 -NegativeZero- wrote:
@hero_lief: I think I've seen those textures somewhere before. Where did you get them?
I'm sure you have. They're from Ashenvale in WoW.
Using and distributing assets from Blizzard games for Blizzard games is legal, according to all of their FAQs, so I feel it's perfectly okay to use a WoW tileset in SC2. Looks great, too.
Refer to the StarCraft II Custom Game Acceptable Use Policy for any questions on the matter. You agreed to this as part of the SC2 EULA that you accepted during installation.
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On November 26 2014 17:10 hero_lief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2014 16:01 BowlOfMuesli wrote:
I present to you all, Bovine Plateau. Complete with 7 whole cows (3 each and you fight for the last one I guess). Alright, this is gunna be a lengthy post so let's get to it. - "about 35-40 star-seconds" is not a rush distance. If you use the Editor's distance tool, and place each endpoint at the center of the town hall location at each natural, what is the distance it shows, in units? Divide that by 2.81 and you have your worker rush distance.
- That is a huge main. How many CCs?
- There needs to be way more space behind the main's mineral line. A good rule of thumb is space for a couple of Zerg buildings and space for towers.
- The natural has the biggest ramp I think I've ever seen. That would be an absolute nightmare to block off.
- Impossible to defend the ramp to the Main with a single Spine Crawler at the natural, which is always optimal.
- Nearly impossible to get into the third. There's lots of space in the third itself, but there's nowhere to really attack from.
- The entire middle is just a nightmare. There is literally nowhere to move an army through unless you take the time to kill rocks, but even then, you're walking through a small choke. As a Zerg player, I would veto this map immediately.
- Don't use cardinal ramps going up to the 'fourth'.
- NEVER place a Xel'Naga tower inside of a base. That's just asking for trouble. They need to be hotly contested territory, and bases simply are not.
- The fifth base placed behind the natural is incredibly squished. Space it out a little more, with wider paths to get to it.
- None of your doodads are actually from the same tileset. You've got random vespene towers behind the bottom natural, a Bel'Shir Artifact Shrine in the middle, random crystal formations on top of cliffs, and to top it all off, you're using some kind of Agria tileset. You really need to rethink this map.
These are just the most glaring issues. There are many more, but I figured I'd give you a checklist to get started. I also want to add that even though there are a lot of issues, that doesn't make your map bad! If I had a nickel for every revision most ladder maps have received during their development process...
Hey, thanks for the feedback. I've had a tinkle and have come up with a much better version in my opinion.
Click here to see
There's easily space for a spawning pool behind the natural. I've trimmed the main and natural back to more reasonable sizes, chosen a much nicer tileset (in my opinion) and meddled with the centre in a way that I think could lead to some quite interesting engagements. The 3rd is much more attackable now with the snaky corridor being one of 3 possible engagement angles.
I hope it's a positive improvement. If anything it plays much better in my opinion.
It's on EU and NA as 'Bovine Plateau 2' if you'd like to give it a spin.
EDIT: The rush distance is 200/2.81 = 71.1. Is that ideal?
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This is one of my really old WIP maps. Has a few of imbalances. Think I can make something out of it? Or should I just totally scrap it? Note low ground areas are mains, not high grounds.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zuqM88p.jpg)
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On November 27 2014 10:23 BowlOfMuesli wrote:Hey, thanks for the feedback. I've had a tinkle and have come up with a much better version in my opinion. Click here to seeThere's easily space for a spawning pool behind the natural. I've trimmed the main and natural back to more reasonable sizes, chosen a much nicer tileset (in my opinion) and meddled with the centre in a way that I think could lead to some quite interesting engagements. The 3rd is much more attackable now with the snaky corridor being one of 3 possible engagement angles. I hope it's a positive improvement. If anything it plays much better in my opinion. It's on EU and NA as 'Bovine Plateau 2' if you'd like to give it a spin. EDIT: The rush distance is 200/2.81 = 71.1. Is that ideal?
The middle is still horrible. You can't put rocks to block off the most direct path, it breaks the flow of gameplay.
The fourth base (raised platform) shouldn't be raised, it should be lowered into the ground. It shouldn't be safer to take the fourth than the third. It can't actually be lowered because SC2 only permits three levels, so you should compensate by lowering the natural to be on the base level and the main to only be elevated by one. This would also allow reapers and colossi to jump into the main in general, which is usually a necessary quality. Harassment is good.
You're using cardinal ramps on your fourth bases and all throughout the middle. Don't do that! Use diagonal ramps. Read the past page if you need an explanation for why this is so.
Watch towers should not be able to see each other. Spread them out further. They also cover almost nothing right now, there needs to be a reason for players to fight for them.
Also, worker rush times need to be around 35-45 seconds optimally in a 2 player map. You're quite a great deal over that.
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@Sweden
It's interesting, but I think the entire middle needs to be reworked. The fourth bases are also something that needs to be reworked. I think this can be salvaged but I'm not entirely sure what to do about it.
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Yeah I dont think it can be saved at this point. To hard to defend 4 bases and the middle is to choky/is just weird. I do like low ground mains though. And the textures.
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On November 28 2014 08:37 hero_lief wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 10:23 BowlOfMuesli wrote:Hey, thanks for the feedback. I've had a tinkle and have come up with a much better version in my opinion. Click here to seeThere's easily space for a spawning pool behind the natural. I've trimmed the main and natural back to more reasonable sizes, chosen a much nicer tileset (in my opinion) and meddled with the centre in a way that I think could lead to some quite interesting engagements. The 3rd is much more attackable now with the snaky corridor being one of 3 possible engagement angles. I hope it's a positive improvement. If anything it plays much better in my opinion. It's on EU and NA as 'Bovine Plateau 2' if you'd like to give it a spin. EDIT: The rush distance is 200/2.81 = 71.1. Is that ideal? The middle is still horrible. You can't put rocks to block off the most direct path, it breaks the flow of gameplay. The fourth base (raised platform) shouldn't be raised, it should be lowered into the ground. It shouldn't be safer to take the fourth than the third. It can't actually be lowered because SC2 only permits three levels, so you should compensate by lowering the natural to be on the base level and the main to only be elevated by one. This would also allow reapers and colossi to jump into the main in general, which is usually a necessary quality. Harassment is good. You're using cardinal ramps on your fourth bases and all throughout the middle. Don't do that! Use diagonal ramps. Read the past page if you need an explanation for why this is so. Watch towers should not be able to see each other. Spread them out further. They also cover almost nothing right now, there needs to be a reason for players to fight for them. Also, worker rush times need to be around 35-45 seconds optimally in a 2 player map. You're quite a great deal over that.
Thanks for the advice.
I can't help but, respectfully, disagree with some of these though.
The 4th you mention is meant to be a hard to get 5th, with it being closer to the centre of the map and having rocks on it. I'll scoot what is meant to be the 4th a little closer to the main to emphasize this. I'll also fix the cardinal ramps, but would it really be that bad for a 5th that I don't intend to be safe anyway? Something about not using 4 of the 8 ramp directions irks me.
The watchtowers don't actually quite see each other, or they shouldn't unless I've managed to publish the wrong version. They watch the attack pathways that you can exploit early/mid game before destroying the rocks in the middle. The middle rocks are intended to allow a large army into the gap between the natural and 3rd late game, to break stalemates. I meant for the map to disagree with deathball armies as attack could come from either side. I'll remove the small rocks, as they're a bit dumb, but I don't see why the middle rocks are bad. Removing the small rocks knocks worker rush down to 45 too.
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On November 28 2014 10:43 BowlOfMuesli wrote:Thanks for the advice.
I can't help but, respectfully, disagree with some of these though.
The 4th you mention is meant to be a hard to get 5th, with it being closer to the centre of the map and having rocks on it. I'll scoot what is meant to be the 4th a little closer to the main to emphasize this. I'll also fix the cardinal ramps, but would it really be that bad for a 5th that I don't intend to be safe anyway? Something about not using 4 of the 8 ramp directions irks me.
The watchtowers don't actually quite see each other, or they shouldn't unless I've managed to publish the wrong version. They watch the attack pathways that you can exploit early/mid game before destroying the rocks in the middle. The middle rocks are intended to allow a large army into the gap between the natural and 3rd late game, to break stalemates. I meant for the map to disagree with deathball armies as attack could come from either side. I'll remove the small rocks, as they're a bit dumb, but I don't see why the middle rocks are bad. Removing the small rocks knocks worker rush down to 45 too.
And here, I think, is where your issue lies.
Whether or not you enjoy deathballs, you aren't going to be able to discourage them in a map. It just isn't going to happen. As long as there is space to move, players will use deathballs. In fact, placing chokes rather than wide open spaces encourages deathballs even more, because deathballs are strongest when they can only be attacked from one side.
As it is, Zerg can't even play on your map, because there's absolutely no room for them to surround enemies. They have to literally break down rocks to get a surround, and that's just absurd.
As for the raised expansion, it would definitely be the 4th, because what you think is the 4th base lies right on the only attack path, and doesn't have any way to defend it. The raised base is far easier to defend because there's only one way to attack it, and it has the cliff advantage.
As for ramps, it irks me too, but being unable to wall off and the ramps actually being buggy themselves is something you can't fix. Much as I hate it too, the logic is sound, and there's nothing you can do to fix it.
Rocks are not an excuse for bad map design. Forcing players to play your map the way you intend is one of the biggest issues in SC2 map creation. If you want to play this versus an AI, that's fine, but this is not a map that any player would ever want to play a serious match on.
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I think the vertical ramps are fine in this case , there isn't anything wrong with not being able to wall the 4th. Cardinal ramps aren't "bugged" per se, it's really just the walling issue, plus the unit perspective gets distorted a bit with horizontal ramps but that's not an issue here.
Agreed with the rest of hero_lief's analysis though.
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On November 28 2014 15:15 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I think the vertical ramps are fine in this case , there isn't anything wrong with not being able to wall the 4th. Cardinal ramps aren't "bugged" per se, it's really just the walling issue, plus the unit perspective gets distorted a bit with horizontal ramps but that's not an issue here.
Agreed with the rest of hero_lief's analysis though.
While pathing won't be an issue, I still think the buggy vision and tilted perspective are enough of a reason to change the ramps since they don't need to be cardinal in the first place.
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On November 27 2014 12:06 SwedenTheKid wrote:This is one of my really old WIP maps. Has a few of imbalances. Think I can make something out of it? Or should I just totally scrap it? Note low ground areas are mains, not high grounds.
I like this. It's got some imbalances, but they're fixable I think. I think you should keep working on it.
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It's a big stretch in any case, but if you're interested in getting closer...
Put 4x4 rocks on the forward ramp from the in-base expansion, or remove it, or make it a 2-wide with 6x6 rocks. Combine the edge bases so that siege can't hit the in-base expansion. Use the space gained to open up the center - you probably should remove the gold half bases and make it a bit easier to get to your now-further-away counter-clockwise 3rd, possibly by switching the two ramps that currently go down there so you have a close small ramp with a blocked large ramp further away.
Or, if you're really interested in keeping the center golds, you should remake the map way bigger, and keep the 3rds separate. It needs a lot more space all around.
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On November 27 2014 12:06 SwedenTheKid wrote:This is one of my really old WIP maps. Has a few of imbalances. Think I can make something out of it? Or should I just totally scrap it? Note low ground areas are mains, not high grounds.
Hmm I did a low-ground mains map once (for TLMC) and I think it causes some problems, the most basic ones being high-ground pylon warpin into the main (hello 4g PvP) and annoying cannon rushes. Terrans also can't wall depot-rax-depot because if you do that tanks and thors can't go out of the main, they have to wall depot-depot-rax. That's not really a big problem but it's still one.
edit : but yeah I agree with NewSunshine, I like the global concept. I think it has some potential
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your Country52798 Posts
Aren't the main bases on the high ground with two ramps?
Either way, there's definitely some cannon rush-abusable spots there.
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On December 01 2014 05:57 The_Templar wrote:
Aren't the main bases on the high ground with two ramps?
Either way, there's definitely some cannon rush-abusable spots there.
No, the mains are low ground, and those bases are the nats.
And yeah, plenty of cannon spots. Its an old WIP, back when I was awful
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your Country52798 Posts
On December 01 2014 06:10 SwedenTheKid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2014 05:57 The_Templar wrote:
Aren't the main bases on the high ground with two ramps?
Either way, there's definitely some cannon rush-abusable spots there. No, the mains are low ground, and those bases are the nats. And yeah, plenty of cannon spots. Its an old WIP, back when I was awful
Bleh, I didn't read your post carefully.
Need to move those high ground minerals to prevent cannon abuse in this way.
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Yep. Will make sure its not broken^
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How is this? Weird? Don't know what to do about the center bases. Seems impossible for both players to hold middle bases. Thoughts?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pt6ZLBD.jpg)
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your Country52798 Posts
Honestly, I found it uncomfortable that you can access the main base directly from that high ground as well as the choke point, so adding rocks there is definitely good.
Not seeing the point of having any center bases at all, you could remove them and make those ramps (and the area in general) more open.
Also, what is the point of having the blocked-off high ground next to the main?
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Didn't want to waste space  will probably change that. Make the 3rd larger.
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EPT
