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On March 21 2012 20:15 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:05 Surili wrote:On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity  Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D Or you could put rocks there with like 100 hp or something similar, or maybe go BW style and have minerals with maybe 50 in them that you have to mine out before it can be used. Obviously the mule mechanic has altered the way this can be effective somewhat, but if it were done in such a way that there was absolutely nowhere on the island that the CC could land without mining it out, and you raised the level to say 65, suddenly it would cost 3 mules to take it down, which feels fair enough, or maybe set it to 40, so that a warpprism/overlord/medivac full of workers can mine it out in exactly 1 trip, but still costing 2 mules if you want to do it that way in the early game (where on a 6 min map ~600 minerals early on is HUGE, especially in a FE build. Can't you load up to 5 SCVs to a CC and unload them while still lifted?
Yes you can, but then you won't be able to return the minerals for the second time, that is part of the reason i wanted 40 minerals and not 25.
On March 21 2012 20:40 cristo1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:05 Surili wrote:On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D Or you could put rocks there with like 100 hp or something similar, or maybe go BW style and have minerals with maybe 50 in them that you have to mine out before it can be used. Obviously the mule mechanic has altered the way this can be effective somewhat, but if it were done in such a way that there was absolutely nowhere on the island that the CC could land without mining it out, and you raised the level to say 65, suddenly it would cost 3 mules to take it down, which feels fair enough, or maybe set it to 40, so that a warpprism/overlord/medivac full of workers can mine it out in exactly 1 trip, but still costing 2 mules if you want to do it that way in the early game (where on a 6 min map ~600 minerals early on is HUGE, especially in a FE build. what you could do as well would to make it a high yeild as mules dont take extra from them it would allow z and P to mine it promptly while not being t imbalanced
This would be a genius idea, but the numbers don't really add up in any useful way... watch:
5x7 (hym) = 35 minerals = 2 mule trips = 5 scvs in a CC = 5 workers in a transport.
As warpprisms and overlords carry 8 anyway, it isn't a huge deal over making them high yield or not, as for T not to have a large advantage you need at least to make it require 6 trips, in which case it might well be 8.
That said, we could still do it that way, and make it 6 trips, it would still make it slightly easier for P and Z.
The other thing is that they could drop a mule and say 2 workers to mine it out with only a single mule, which is only ~300 minerals. This is slightly outweighed by the fact that it forces the terran to leave the CC as a CC until it lands, slowing down it's effectiveness slightly.
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On March 21 2012 20:59 Surili wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 20:15 maybenexttime wrote:On March 21 2012 18:05 Surili wrote:On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D Or you could put rocks there with like 100 hp or something similar, or maybe go BW style and have minerals with maybe 50 in them that you have to mine out before it can be used. Obviously the mule mechanic has altered the way this can be effective somewhat, but if it were done in such a way that there was absolutely nowhere on the island that the CC could land without mining it out, and you raised the level to say 65, suddenly it would cost 3 mules to take it down, which feels fair enough, or maybe set it to 40, so that a warpprism/overlord/medivac full of workers can mine it out in exactly 1 trip, but still costing 2 mules if you want to do it that way in the early game (where on a 6 min map ~600 minerals early on is HUGE, especially in a FE build. Can't you load up to 5 SCVs to a CC and unload them while still lifted? Yes you can, but then you won't be able to return the minerals for the second time, that is part of the reason i wanted 40 minerals and not 25. Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 20:40 cristo1122 wrote:On March 21 2012 18:05 Surili wrote:On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D Or you could put rocks there with like 100 hp or something similar, or maybe go BW style and have minerals with maybe 50 in them that you have to mine out before it can be used. Obviously the mule mechanic has altered the way this can be effective somewhat, but if it were done in such a way that there was absolutely nowhere on the island that the CC could land without mining it out, and you raised the level to say 65, suddenly it would cost 3 mules to take it down, which feels fair enough, or maybe set it to 40, so that a warpprism/overlord/medivac full of workers can mine it out in exactly 1 trip, but still costing 2 mules if you want to do it that way in the early game (where on a 6 min map ~600 minerals early on is HUGE, especially in a FE build. what you could do as well would to make it a high yeild as mules dont take extra from them it would allow z and P to mine it promptly while not being t imbalanced This would be a genius idea, but the numbers don't really add up in any useful way... watch: 5x7 (hym) = 35 minerals = 2 mule trips = 5 scvs in a CC = 5 workers in a transport. As warpprisms and overlords carry 8 anyway, it isn't a huge deal over making them high yield or not, as for T not to have a large advantage you need at least to make it require 6 trips, in which case it might well be 8. That said, we could still do it that way, and make it 6 trips, it would still make it slightly easier for P and Z. The other thing is that they could drop a mule and say 2 workers to mine it out with only a single mule, which is only ~300 minerals. This is slightly outweighed by the fact that it forces the terran to leave the CC as a CC until it lands, slowing down it's effectiveness slightly.
the main thing is to stop terrans going ridiculous fast command centre first as they can just float it over even if u delay this sort of for the first seven minutes (or making it a high risk thing to do) then it probly wont matter.
The main thing is to stop terran grabbing 3 riduclously quickly.
Alternatively you could do wat gsl did which is put a creep tumour on the island but put it where the base has to be placed so that it blocks it thus not making it Z imbalanced,
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Good to see people backing this idea. Hope it takes off.
Also, is your username a reference to Marathon?
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On March 21 2012 20:15 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:05 Surili wrote:On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D Or you could put rocks there with like 100 hp or something similar, or maybe go BW style and have minerals with maybe 50 in them that you have to mine out before it can be used. Obviously the mule mechanic has altered the way this can be effective somewhat, but if it were done in such a way that there was absolutely nowhere on the island that the CC could land without mining it out, and you raised the level to say 65, suddenly it would cost 3 mules to take it down, which feels fair enough, or maybe set it to 40, so that a warpprism/overlord/medivac full of workers can mine it out in exactly 1 trip, but still costing 2 mules if you want to do it that way in the early game (where on a 6 min map ~600 minerals early on is HUGE, especially in a FE build. Can't you load up to 5 SCVs to a CC and unload them while still lifted?
Yes, then build a refinery and have the SCVs pick up minerals then gas then minerals again over and over until the minerals run out. Wouldn't cost a single mule.
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On March 21 2012 15:02 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 12:47 VictorJones wrote:I would plant a creep tumor on the floatable expansion to make it a little less terran float friendly but still possible with some creativity Oh that seems like a good way to prevent major abuse. Forgot about that, thanks. ;D
The best way to prevent float-to-the-island friendliness without favoring any race:
Have you noticed maps often have arches/rocks/buildings which are so tall that flying units/buildings have to go around them? Ring the island with thin pillars that tall, spaced *just* closely enough that a command center can't quite fit through any of the gaps.
Now there is no way to get units on/off the island without drop/nydus tech, regardless of race.
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On March 22 2012 04:29 Reeevolt wrote:
Good to see people backing this idea. Hope it takes off.
Also, is your username a reference to Marathon?
YES <3
This map name also...
Good discussion about islands, thanks for all the suggestions. These issues have been batted around before and I don't think there's a clear answer on the best standard island block. For that matter islands are highly untested in SC2 competitive play anyway. I'm not convinced a "free" expansion that quickly becomes vulnerable and difficult to reinforce is a liabiliity for balance anyway, given that you need more than 2 bases to play beyond 8-10 minutes. However I'd rather err on the safe side. I have an idea I need to test that I think would be the best solution for this particular case.
About the profuse LosB at the narrow passage and around the hole: can I get others' thoughts on this? I am thinking it's a little too easy to hide pylons, and senex might have a point about armies popping out at your natural. However I meant the airspace over the hole to be a spot for overlords to see there, and I wanted some tension on the direct path to the center. I might try diminishing the amount of hard vision blocked areas making the LosB more spotty / less true hiding spots.
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Flying FE CCs to the semi-island is now fixed:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/klNlE.jpg)
See update in OP for explanation.
Thanks to everyone playing in channel 7m!
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Rather creative method of blocking the island, especially with the timer aspect of it. Another idea would be to just put a hostile photon cannon there - you have to kill the cannon + pylon in order to use the expo. This way you're free to take the base whenever you want, but you need combat units in order to do it.
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The map actually looks quite good. It looks fairly balanced as far as I can see, though I think it might be a little too open, which can be favorable to zerg players.
Good work though!
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Super awesome island blocker haha. I haven't seen anything like it in sc2 before
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Have you thought about the effects the island could have from an attacker's perspective?
In this post, I will assume that the defender spawns at the 10 o'clock position.
The main is pretty small with space for only 27.7 CCs, so I expect Terrans and Protoss to fill all that space with buildings.
For Terran attackers:
The island seems to provide an excellent spot to shell the opponent's main (production facilities) with siege tank fire while being protected by the rocks. A protoss player's zealots for example cannot attack the siege tanks. A terran's army must take heavy splash damage and can only attack the closest tanks (and only if the tanks don't have any army support). Zerg can't do anything .
If the defender takes the island himself, the Terran can savely siege the island from 8 o'clock base.
For Protoss attackers:
Blink stalkers can blink from the 8 o'clock base to the island, from the island to the main (without even the need for an observer), from the main back to the island or the low ground base. Basically, the Protoss player can travel between and attack 3 bases with just one mouse click whereas the defender (if he isn't Protoss and going for blink stalkers) must travel ~20 seconds to reach the other side.
The same applies to some extent to Colossi.
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I have addressed the issue of flying CC to the semi-island by introducing a timed out expo blockade. One hostile spine crawler attacks two alternate player hives (stacked on top of each other) until they are both dead, and then the lack of creep kills the spine. Thus, the site is initially blocked and indeed guarded by a spine, which will attack players' units. After about 6 minutes the hives are dead and the spine is at partial health from the broodlings attacking it. After about 7 minutes the creep is gone and the spine has died.
This is the coolest island blocking mechanic ever
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I like the los blockers in the approach to the natural. Very terrifying though :D
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Why not just add a destructable rock to that expansion with a few hundred HP? The drastically decreased mining rate would make the extra protection from the rocks not worth it, and SCV's wouldn't break it down fast enough either.
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Why would he do that when he already has rube goldberg autodestructive rocks?
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On March 25 2012 22:53 S1eth wrote:
Have you thought about the effects the island could have from an attacker's perspective?
In this post, I will assume that the defender spawns at the 10 o'clock position.
The main is pretty small with space for only 27.7 CCs, so I expect Terrans and Protoss to fill all that space with buildings.
For Terran attackers:
The island seems to provide an excellent spot to shell the opponent's main (production facilities) with siege tank fire while being protected by the rocks. A protoss player's zealots for example cannot attack the siege tanks. A terran's army must take heavy splash damage and can only attack the closest tanks (and only if the tanks don't have any army support). Zerg can't do anything .
If the defender takes the island himself, the Terran can savely siege the island from 8 o'clock base.
For Protoss attackers:
Blink stalkers can blink from the 8 o'clock base to the island, from the island to the main (without even the need for an observer), from the main back to the island or the low ground base. Basically, the Protoss player can travel between and attack 3 bases with just one mouse click whereas the defender (if he isn't Protoss and going for blink stalkers) must travel ~20 seconds to reach the other side.
The same applies to some extent to Colossi.
The timings where you can do those things are the same as blink + obs and tank/marine elevator. So I don't see why it's any different than normal. If there's a replay where it's clearly unbeatable, I don't mind adjusting it. This map is meant to provide variety, not perfect balance, though. I haven't seen any island abuse in all the games I've played and watched.
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EPT
