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MotM February Results - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 14 2012 05:38 GMT
#21
On March 14 2012 12:59 SidianTheBard wrote:
Sidewinder:
At first glance through out this map I didn't like it at all. I thought the setup was too gimmicky & that there was too much positional imbalances. Yet after looking over it more and more I'm starting to like it that much better. Main & Natural are perfectly setup, then you have your option of a 3rd. I think a really neat feature is the choke right out from your natural that appears to take about 2 3x3 buildings to wall off. You could easily wall off there and take the 3rd, bringing your army to the high ground to easily defend your third, but then be vulnerable to air harass.

My biggest concern is the amount of chokes. (Although I have yet to play on the map so it could just be the overview playing tricks on me) but it feels that everywhere on the map is super choked off that a 200 supply terran or protoss army will just absolutely crush anything zerg related unless they can get Brood lords out or can mass mutas up. It seems that you just can't be "caught out of place" on this map because there is always corners or cliffs to back yourself into.

Also it's worrisome about how close by air you'll be if you spawn in close positions and if they take the high ground third.

Cross positions on this map will be godlike. Close positions, while still good, might be a little boring/imbalanced depending on which race spawns where.
The map actually feels really nice to play on. Maybe some chokes near the natural need to be widened, but overall it felt really good to play.

Rusty Cage:
"Hey Johanaz, are you going to submit a map for MoTM?"
"Yes I am! Although I'm worried because I don't think it's that good."
"No worries, we won't even look at it but still give you a winning spot!"

It seems that Johanaz can submit a map and it wins even though, in my opinion, the gameplay isn't going to be that great. But it doesn't matter because:

A) It's Johanaz
B) It's Pretty and
C) It's Johanaz

Did I also mention that it's pretty?

Let me start off by saying the 4 bases in the middle are almost never going to get used. They are too close to your opponent. These are meant to be your 4th base but you're much better off taking the natural of another base so then you get a "free" 5th in the other main. The only way they will ever get used is once again by a terran that can get a pfort up and a couple of tanks and that's only because of how choked off it is. Protoss are never going to get off 2 base on this map, terran will have a tough time as well. (against zerg that is).

I do like the middle and the watchtower placement. I do like the main & natural setups. I think Close & Cross positions will definitely say who wins. Close positions the zerg loses, cross positions the zerg wins. Natural to natural in close positions looks like what, steppes of war rush distance, yet cross positions the rush distance seems long enough that most 2 base pressure will be easily thwarted, yet as I've said, 3rds are tough to take, which only favors the zerg that much more.
Well this certainly get in because of the aesthetics Doing 4p maps isn't always easy for a lot of the reasons you cite but I think this map has a good balance. I don't agree that the forward bases won't get taken - I can see Terrans taking them a lot as it allows for more aggressive options (particularly vs z/p). Protoss may decide to take that base vs Muta, as it is easier to blink back to your base to defend. And while the thirds can seem like a long way away, the map is designed in such a way that the attacker has to travel a long way before being able to attack, reducing the hinderedence of the base being further away than on other maps.

Titanis:
I really question the judges on the reasons why they picked this map. I'm wondering if they are trolling us or something. They spend well over a month playing over maps and the 5th winning map is Metropolis Clone 2.0. The 4 middle bases are useless and would only be used by Terran, yet Terran are still better off taking their 5 bases along the edges of the map. Only reason I could see a forward third being taken is if the Terran is going to all-in on 3 base and has no plan for expanding again. Protoss will never take it and Zerg don't want to be expanding towards their opponent so once again they'll be forced to take those bases as their 6th or 7th.

The natural is less secure then Metropolis but the 3rd is easier to defend since it's on high ground. The middle is so wide open that we can expect to see many base trades on this map if both armies push out at the same time. Especially since you can move thru the middle without being in range of the watchtowers. Think of all the bigger maps where watchtowers can see almost everything in the middle and look at all the base trades we still see because both armies are pushed across the map.

I just completely don't understand the reason for picking up Metropolis 2.0. Aren't we already seeing enough of that map? And yes, this map isn't going to play out any different. I'd like to know why Plexa feels this is Metropolis on steroids because Honestly I just feel it's a sub-par version of it. No hard feelings toward Lefix at all because he can make amazing maps (Odyssey, Vulture) but because Metropolis is already popular, why do we need a clone of it?

Well let's clear some things up. I think Metropolis is a boring map and I think this is a much better rendition of the map as it allows for more aggression and more expansion options. Moreover, it had been developed before Metropolis was released so it really was a matter of timing between the two maps to see which was the 'clone'.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
wrl
Profile Joined April 2011
United States209 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 06:07:22
March 14 2012 05:54 GMT
#22
The only negative thing I can say about Rusty Cage is that it is confusing as shit. I lost a lot of infestors due to me messing up the pathing on the map. ><

That said its plays incredibly interestingly, and I really want to see some competetive matches on it.
It's funny; I dream a lot, but I'm not a very good sleeper.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 06:25:27
March 14 2012 06:23 GMT
#23
I do know that Titanis was developed well before Metropolis was. But it still doesn't change the fact that Metropolis became popular and is now taking off and every tournament is picking it up, even Blizzard. It just feels to me that the two maps are not only almost identical but they will play out the same exact way the majority of the time, minus the couple of times a terran will expand to a forward expansion.

I think Metropolis is an extremely boring map to watch as well as play on. So it's really hard to be excited about a map that is basically the same.

It's also kind of a bummer for other mappers because iirc these 10 maps get a chance at being in the IEM map pool and honestly, if IEM has Metropolis, they will not pick up Titanis. Same thing that happened last month with Cloud Kingdom.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
Astro-Penguin
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
554 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 06:34:57
March 14 2012 06:32 GMT
#24
From a Protoss prospective I really have to ask why are all of these maps so inaccessible for FFE openings against zergs? If these were ever used in pro play this could pose a huge problem considering the current meta-game of PvZ is almost completely reliant on FFE.

IMO the natural chokes should require 4 buildings to completely block and thats at max, I haven't tested them each out specifically but most of the chokes seem absurdly wide.

On a side note I think Titanis is probably the best out of these maps and even better then Metropolis, it has my vote.
itkovian
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States1763 Posts
March 14 2012 06:36 GMT
#25
Oh wow. I really, really like the look of Odin upon first glance. Reminds me of scrap station in a good way. Because its fresh and not your standard boring map layout. Can't say how it would check out balance-wise, but if I were to judge solely by how interesting a map looked, I would choose Odin.
=)=
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 07:50:22
March 14 2012 07:49 GMT
#26
On March 14 2012 15:32 Astro-Penguin wrote:
From a Protoss prospective I really have to ask why are all of these maps so inaccessible for FFE openings against zergs? If these were ever used in pro play this could pose a huge problem considering the current meta-game of PvZ is almost completely reliant on FFE.

IMO the natural chokes should require 4 buildings to completely block and thats at max, I haven't tested them each out specifically but most of the chokes seem absurdly wide.

On a side note I think Titanis is probably the best out of these maps and even better then Metropolis, it has my vote.


I think you're probably somewhat overestimating the choke sizes, Here is sidewinder for comparision:

+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]
ESV Mapmaking!
ArcticRaven
Profile Joined August 2011
France1406 Posts
March 14 2012 08:08 GMT
#27
On March 14 2012 11:19 SigmaFiE wrote:
Great choices! I'm excited to try The Grid and Odin in particular.

As a followup: I am not disagreeing with the judging, looking at all the submissions going into it, it was obvious just how strong the competition for this series was. I do have a couple questions though.

1) Will any of the judges be taking time, as they did for last month's (January 2012) competition, to write to submitters about the critiques of their maps if a mapper asks for those?

and

2) I'll start with my observation, and that is that all the maps chosen were created by mappers that are on mapping teams. I know a similar case could have been made for last month as well. I do not dispute the quality of these maps, as they are all very good. But I would like to ask would the MotM panel would consider a non-affiliated "bracket" for us mappers who are not on teams or do not have access to teams?


I'd like to support both points.

Especially the teamless bracket. How do you get on a team ? You make good maps and show them off in contests. How do you make better maps ? You get helped by a team. See the problem ? It's an advantage it isn't easy to negate.
[Govie] Wierd shit, on a 6 game AP winning streak with KOTL in the trench. I searched gandalf quotes and spammed them all game long, trenchwarfare247, whateva it takes!
Johanaz
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark363 Posts
March 14 2012 09:04 GMT
#28
Whooohoooo!!!

So happy! Thanks and congratz to the other finalists.

As for judges being biased towards me, I can only say that I have submitted maps for MotM every single time (like 12 maps total), and I have had master players test all my maps before submitting.

Here´s a list of my previously rejected maps:

+ Show Spoiler +
Gas Chamber
Zhakul Strife
Autumn Hills
Crimsonite
Vanadium
Rock Bottom
Rusty Cage (2P version)
Mud Rock RE

Each map represents 40+ hours of work. So the list translates into 2 months of full time. I like to think that I learned something from all that work.


As for you non-team mappers, make your own damn team, that´s what we did. During the first year of SC2 map making there was only one team, iCCup (now ESV), and then we founded TPW of what we thought were the best non-team map makers at the time. Maybe now is the time for you guys to do the same. Pm each other, make a Skype channel, make a website, work harder, help each other.
- sounds like a lot of time and effort? sure, but it´s definitely worth it.
TPW Map Maker - theplanetaryworkshop.com
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 14 2012 09:23 GMT
#29
There were quite a few teamless maps that were close to making the cut - the difference between those and these ones were that there were some fundamental flaws in the map, despite being conceptually very interesting. Having the feedback of other mappers (like johanaz suggests) is really invaluable in refining concepts to tournament ready maps.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Fishriot
Profile Joined May 2010
United States621 Posts
March 14 2012 09:56 GMT
#30
Wow, The Grid looks beautiful!
Xacalite
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany533 Posts
March 14 2012 10:49 GMT
#31
the Grid....its the most beautiful and hypnotic map ive ever seen
I feel fear...for the last time
Yonnua
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United Kingdom2331 Posts
March 14 2012 11:55 GMT
#32
Is Barrin (or somebody else) going to give brief feedback on every map like he did last month?
LRSL 2014 Finalist! PartinG | Mvp | Bomber | Creator | NaNiwa | herO
Serelitz
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands2895 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 12:03:57
March 14 2012 12:03 GMT
#33
I'm a bit reserved about Odin PvT (incredibly open drop areas) and Rusty Cage PvZ (third is pretty far away). Regardless all maps seem pretty good with advantages/disadvantages. I like it.
Apoo
Profile Joined January 2011
413 Posts
March 14 2012 12:28 GMT
#34
Great maps, congratulations to the TPW team for having four maps in the top 5!

Could someone from the judging panel tell me whether my map [M] (2) Sludge Pit did well or not and what i have to improve on it and my future maps? Would really appreciate it.
dezi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1536 Posts
March 14 2012 13:58 GMT
#35
Good choices
TPW Member | My Maps @ TL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171486 | Search 'dezi' at EU
wrl
Profile Joined April 2011
United States209 Posts
March 14 2012 14:08 GMT
#36
On March 14 2012 15:32 Astro-Penguin wrote:
From a Protoss prospective I really have to ask why are all of these maps so inaccessible for FFE openings against zergs? If these were ever used in pro play this could pose a huge problem considering the current meta-game of PvZ is almost completely reliant on FFE.

IMO the natural chokes should require 4 buildings to completely block and thats at max, I haven't tested them each out specifically but most of the chokes seem absurdly wide.

On a side note I think Titanis is probably the best out of these maps and even better then Metropolis, it has my vote.


FFE works on Odin like so:

[image loading]

The long rush distance gives you enough time to get the expansion set up, but it is still partially vulnerable to attack, so you can't just assume its free like on some maps.
It's funny; I dream a lot, but I'm not a very good sleeper.
SigmaFiE
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States333 Posts
March 14 2012 14:12 GMT
#37
On March 14 2012 18:04 Johanaz wrote:
Each map represents 40+ hours of work. So the list translates into 2 months of full time. I like to think that I learned something from all that work.

As for you non-team mappers, make your own damn team, that´s what we did. During the first year of SC2 map making there was only one team, iCCup (now ESV), and then we founded TPW of what we thought were the best non-team map makers at the time. Maybe now is the time for you guys to do the same. Pm each other, make a Skype channel, make a website, work harder, help each other.
- sounds like a lot of time and effort? sure, but it´s definitely worth it.
[/spoiler]

My point is not to degrade the amount of time and effort that you and your fellow practitioners put into the affair Johanaz. I think its wonderful that you and your compatriots have decided to team up. As for the creation of a new team, I think it is a valid point. But I do not think that it addresses the root problem that I see, and that is unaffiliated mappers not gaining attention due to the inherent disadvantage of not being on a team. By forming a new team, for those new members it may solve the problem depending on their ability to co-ordinate and progress together. But it does not solve the problem for the rest of the non-affiliated mapping community. The problem remains. Hence why I think a non-affiliated bracket (without prizes: leave those for the full competition where everyone can enter and only the truly best win -- this would just be like an honorable mentions type deal) would definitely help.
https://johnemerson.artstation.com/
MaV_gGSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1345 Posts
March 14 2012 14:19 GMT
#38
Sidewinder and rusty cage look amazing
Life's good :D
wrl
Profile Joined April 2011
United States209 Posts
March 14 2012 14:27 GMT
#39
I can't speak for ESV, but in my experiences with TPW/MCL/LOS (and I'm not speaking on behalf of all of TPW, this is just what I've seen) we always keep an eye out for good mappers that show a lot of promise. In one case we have pursued someone only to be rejected (they didn't want to join a team). I think at the moment TPW might feel a bit big, as evidenced by this month's tournament we are producing a lot of quality maps and we don't necessarily feel like we need more minds for the think tank.

I think without a doubt there are enough unteamed mapmakers to start a new team. My suggestion: someone who is a good organizer should set up a Skype channel and a team dropbox account and get to work picking people up.

Names like MisfortuneS_Ghost, spinnaker, and ArcticRaven come to mind as standout mappers who are not teamed at the moment.

It's funny; I dream a lot, but I'm not a very good sleeper.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-14 14:49:58
March 14 2012 14:40 GMT
#40
--- Nuked ---
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