|
Thanks for all games on EU today. Some newcomers, which is always nice 
As usual, leave feedback here.
I have a list now of things that must be fixed, for example issues with spider mines etc. I am also considering make Reavers shoot up and down cliffs.. The reason is that the scarabs are extremely buggy and misses all the time.. It takes so little to make a scarab miss its target. The line of fire must be perfect. Otherwise you have just wasted money on a worthless reaver.. So much pain, so little gain.
If I make Reavers shoot up and down cliffs I will make their scarabs move slower so players can split their army before getting hit, if you are quick. Or something else as a drawback. What you all think?
|
HAven't played the mod. But buggy scarab AI is part of what makes a reaver so awesome.
|
Yeah I know, but this is absurd. And it is incredible hard to fix it too, seems to be no way to make them be buggy at a decent level ; /
|
|
|
i think that BW mines are better, positioned > launch
|
On July 31 2012 06:09 Kabel wrote:Thanks for all games on EU today. Some newcomers, which is always nice As usual, leave feedback here. I have a list now of things that must be fixed, for example issues with spider mines etc. I am also considering make Reavers shoot up and down cliffs.. The reason is that the scarabs are extremely buggy and misses all the time.. It takes so little to make a scarab miss its target. The line of fire must be perfect. Otherwise you have just wasted money on a worthless reaver.. So much pain, so little gain. If I make Reavers shoot up and down cliffs I will make their scarabs move slower so players can split their army before getting hit, if you are quick. Or something else as a drawback. What you all think?
I think you shouldn't make scarabs go down and up cliffs. Mineral line harass would be a lot more easy and less risky for protoss player. Some expansions could be way too easily abused on current maps.
|
I completly agree. Leave it as it is and give players time to learn how to use reavers effectivly.
|
Maelstrom and Storm combination is so sexy for protoss, lol. PvZ is really fun to play, so much stuff to try out ^_^
|
I do not think the Reaver is either fun to play with or watch people play with it in it´s current form. Cause it always misses. It causes so much frustration.
And the reaver shoots! ... and the scarab gets stuck at the ramp...
And the reaver shoots again! ... and the scarab gets stuck at a building...
And the reaver repositions and shoots again! ... and the scarab takes a weird way and gets stuck at the cliff...
The problem is that the reaver misses in situations where it should not even miss in. Right now you need an extremely flat surface with nothing in the way to be able to hit the enemy. Those circumstances rarely occur in combat. (This is waaaay worse than in BW)
An other problem with the reaver is that it, like all other units, auto-attack the enemy. They shoot at what is closest. It makes it even harder to control the reaver, since you need to constantly control it, otherwise it shoots at a bad target. And right now almost all targets are bad targets since it never hits >.< And you have to wait for the cooldown.. and you click on an other unit to attack, and that unit moves just a tiny bit and the scarab suddenly get stuck.. if you don´t pay attention to your reaver it will just stand and auto-attack shit it can´t even hit..
I don´t think it makes the game better having a unit that requires constant supervision just to be able to hit the enemy.
I think a noob is supposed to handle the reaver.
A pro is able to master the reaver.
Right now it takes a pro to even handle the reaver >.<
But, I do know that the reaver has a classic attack. Make scarabs move over cliffs will look odd.. at first. But neither I, or way better map makers I have asked, have been able to solve the scarab issue. I have experimented with the reaver in the editor now. If it shoots scarabs over cliffs and through buildings, the unit is way more user friendly. It looks and works smooth.
The only problem is balance. If the scarab can move through cliffs and buildings, it must have some other disadvantages.
My suggestion:
- Scarabs accelerate slow when reaching it´s target. Which means that the enemy get some extra seconds to split their units/workers.
- Scarabs costs 25 instead of 15.
- Slower attack speed. (4.5 seconds instead of 3.5 seconds)
- Shorter range (10 instad of 11) As a comparision, Siege tanks have 13.
Hmm.. I am simply thinking loud now ^^
|
On July 31 2012 21:31 Huragius wrote:
Maelstrom and Storm combination is so sexy for protoss, lol. PvZ is really fun to play, so much stuff to try out ^_^
Glad to hear I didn´t think you liked that match up?
I am also releasing a new patch today where I have fixed some issues from yesterday, like spider mines, the lurker attack not working properly etc.
Gas income seems to be way high and will be lowered to 7 instead of 8. People are bathing in gas! (If that is still to much I will lower it to 6 in the next update)
And some other stuff.. I will post a list of the things that have been fixed..
I will be online ay 19.00 today on EU, if anyone wanna play... (19.00 swedish time, don´t know what the name of the time zone is T_T)
|
On July 31 2012 21:43 Kabel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 21:31 Huragius wrote:
Maelstrom and Storm combination is so sexy for protoss, lol. PvZ is really fun to play, so much stuff to try out ^_^ Glad to hear I didn´t think you liked that match up? I am also releasing a new patch today where I have fixed some issues from yesterday, like spider mines, the lurker attack not working properly etc. Gas income seems to be way high and will be lowered to 7 instead of 8. People are bathing in gas! (If that is still to much I will lower it to 6 in the next update) And some other stuff.. I will post a list of the things that have been fixed.. I will be online ay 19.00 today on EU, if anyone wanna play... (19.00 swedish time, don´t know what the name of the time zone is T_T)
I didn't like ZvP, not PvZ 
Right now there is no larva inject, so zerg has to be more crisp about reading opponent's build and timings. Corsairs are even better than pheonixes and they still have lift-up. Dark Templars are not even a risk unit now, because you accumulate gas so fast. And I feel like chargelot became go-to unit in PvZ now. There is no roach who would tank them properly and they really rip through Hydras (which are ZvP core unit). So combined with proper harass and good Chargelot/Archon/HT timing pushes (HT/Archon is possible, because you have a high gas income), it becomes hard for zerg to deal with it IMO.
Like you said, majority protosses lose in this custom. That may be right, but I don't think they are playing properly. Most of the time they die to somekind of two base Hydra or Lurker pushes which can be stopped with proper build or scouting.
However, I may be wrong. That's why I need better opponents to try out both PvZ and ZvP I still haven't seen/played proper hive zerg or transitioned into heavy stargate (or at least with arbiter support) protoss play. Games were pretty much won before that point, so there is still a lot of stuff to try out.
|
I dont like that all these changes are happening before i had occasion to play. Dont make reaver atacks move up/down clifs and trough buildings. Maybe lower colision size of it? Pathing of reaver projectile makes it unique. Dont make it just another aoe unit.
About gas income. Im not sure if thats good idea lowering income. Maybe just increase higher techs gas cost? With lower income you will delay/weaken earlier, less gas heavy openings/play styles like speedlings opening/play. From what i have heard problem appears with higher tech units like SV/HTs. What about increasing their gas cost by 25-50?
Also mid/late game upgrades costs. Lurker den/charge. From what i remember some time ago people complained about too low gas income, and from what i remember, testing really showed income was lower then in BW (from what i remember).
Or at least wait for me :D. Im gonna have time tomorrow, around 10-16 i think.
|
I think the problem does not lie with the fact that gas income is too high, the mineral income is too low.
And with that I mean that the workers do not line up properly while they are mining, they already start to dance around furiously as soon as you hit one worker per patch saturation.
Fix that and it will improve the currently skewed mineral/gas income ratio.
|
On July 31 2012 22:15 Danko__ wrote:
I dont like that all these changes are happening before i had occasion to play. Dont make reaver atacks move up/down clifs and trough buildings. Maybe lower colision size of it? Pathing of reaver projectile makes it unique. Dont make it just another aoe unit.
What changes are you refering to?
I will try to not make major changes left and right. People ask me about adding more spells and units, or replace that spell with this or that unit with something else etc. The current content will stick around for a while. If something is really necessary to change, due to it being imbalanced, really bad, bugged or just not work/fit in the game, then I will take care of it.
(And of course, the new spells are in that area. Do they work, do they fit, are they useful? If not, they are the first ones I replace after we have evaluated them)
Otherwise, I will not in the near future make drastic changes or add more content. I save that for the expansion ^^
But I do feel that the Reaver is such a unit that needs to be fixed or reworked. Sure, players who are at a diamond/master level will probably learn to use the Reaver, despite all it´s heavy disadvantages. But is this MOD only for them?
Having units in the game that are extremely hard to use will just make people turn their back to this mod... Thats what happened yesterday.. A person tried Protoss for the first time.. He had 2 reavers at his ramp to defend vs the attack. Not a single scarab hit the enemy.. he tried to position them well, but the scarabs got stuck at random shit... and he lost.. and he never came back to play the mod again
So I think that something needs to be done about the Reaver. I want it to be unique. But now it being unique comes with the price of it being bad and frustrating.
I have tried lots of solutions and I have spoken with some of the best mapmakers at sc2mapster. I asked one of them how to make Scarabs move through buildings only, but not up or down cliffs. (So scarabs don´t stuck at buildings at least)
This was his reply:
The problem would be the footprint, which is used by buildings. As soon as you check a ground-type collision flag, the scarab will collide with cliffs and building footprints, which can only be circumvented by using an air-type collision flag instead, or no collision at all. Both of these will however enable the scarab to pass over cliffs.
You could use a missile mover for the scarab, but that would probably not work very well with your desired movement behavior, afaik there is no way for a missile mover to check for obstackles or something.
You could also try to create a workaround, like create invisible units, which block the path of scarabs only (no footprint, share an otherwise unused ground collision flag with the scarabs) and put them on cliffs.
So.. I think that the Reaver problem will stick around unless the unit is redesigned to work in a slightly different way. Any suggestions of solutions?
|
I think there may be problem with maximal mineral income per base. It seems to be quite fine with lower number of workers, but not effective enough with higher numbers. They dont dance that much anymore i think. From what i remember Kabel already fixed that some time ago. What about adding one more mineral patch? That wont change any early game timings, but will increase max mineral income. Aditional 12,5% income witchout any changes to mining rate//ammount.
Im not sure how scarab pathing works, but it seems to be even dumber then units. If you select unit and order it to move down the ramp or atack ramp, then units is automatically surrounding obstacles. Scarab is not. Why is that so? If you order your baneling to atack enemy he wont get stuck at buildings.
|
On July 31 2012 22:50 Danko__ wrote:
I think there may be problem with maximal mineral income per base. It seems to be quite fine with lower number of workers, but not effective enough with higher numbers. They dont dance that much anymore i think. From what i remember Kabel already fixed that some time ago. What about adding one more mineral patch? That wont change any early game timings, but will increase max mineral income. Aditional 12,5% income witchout any changes to mining rate//ammount.
Im not sure how scarab pathing works, but it seems to be even dumber then units. If you select unit and order it to move down the ramp or atack ramp, then units is automatically surrounding obstacles. Scarab is not. Why is that so? If you order your baneling to atack enemy he wont get stuck at buildings.
I played it yesterday on the most recent maps I think and there is still a problem with workers dancing around needlessly when you saturate over one worker a patch, instead of cueing up properly.
|
I played it yesterday on the most recent maps I think and there is still a problem with workers dancing around needlessly when you saturate over one worker a patch, instead of cueing up properly
Yep I fixed that today and will upload it soon. Had missed to change some values for the workers
Im not sure how scarab pathing works, but it seems to be even dumber then units. If you select unit and order it to move down the ramp or atack ramp, then units is automatically surrounding obstacles. Scarab is not. Why is that so? If you order your baneling to atack enemy he wont get stuck at buildings.
Exactly! Thats the thing I cant solve. Í want them to be smart as normal units..
I will contact some more people at SC2mapster to see if they have any solutions..
|
New patch uploaded:
--- Minor fixes ---
Less range on Medics Heal. (from 4 range to 3)
Creep tumors are now invisible. (Earlier you could see them without detection.)
Corsairs can´t lift up burrowed units.
Swarm Guardians can now be attacked. (They were untargetable before..)
Burrowed Infestors can now use Neural Parasite properly.
Workers are not as messed up when collecting minerals.
Stalkers have a new portrait to fit their skin.
Lurkers deal damage all the way along their spines.
Void Rays deal less damage vs light units. (marines, wraiths etc)
Recall only effects ground units.
--- Major fixes ---
Reavers can now shoot up and down cliffs.............................................. Yea I know....... : /
(Since I can´t get the scarabs to work properly, I will try this one for now.. Reavers has been nerfed a bit also, due to this new advantage..)
Spider mines .. Earlier, when Spider Mines were unburrowed, they became untargetable and invulnerable. Which meant that if a Spider mine poped up of the ground, you were gonna get hit by it. You can now focus fire on them to kill them when they pop up..
Also, your units will auto-attack the spider mines if you have detecion over them.. but if other units shoot at you, your units will shoot back rather than attack the spider mines..
This will be uploaded on EU now and uploaded on NA as soon as Laertes aka ULoseTheGame shows up..
If anyone wanna play on EU, join the Starbow chat channel.
|
I think gas change is quite major change. Will affect everything, from early to lategame. Also, earlier people had not enough gas, even tho you didnt change anything there. If i were you i would be more careful with changes like that.
|
On August 01 2012 01:13 Danko__ wrote:
I think gas change is quite major change. Will affect everything, from early to lategame. Also, earlier people had not enough gas, even tho you didnt change anything there. If i were you i would be more careful with changes like that.
Your right about that. I will let it be 8 gas today too. Perhaps things changes when people get used to use the gas and stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
