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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I just mean that the collected respons I receive seems to favor BW stuff a lot. And if we would "shave" the SC2 stuff from the game, and make sure to keep all great stuff from BW, the races and the game would look very much like BW. I mean, I too like when stuff is very unique from each other. But if we follow that too much, it is very hard to get something else in the game. Unless we rework SC2 units quite a lot to make it become unique and still NOT overlap with anything from BW. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Marauder - unique from other terran units, or maybe he collide with marine in a way? stalker - Works like dragoon more or less and wants his role roach - Can fit if u tweak him statwise, and do not collide with hydra. Move while burrow could be fun. A unit for zerg to do some "ability micro", Would like him to fit with "zerg swarm". sentinel - great unit(?) - Air attacker/supporter which protoss lacks in early/mid game Reaper - I love the walk up cliffs ability, but thats what i love. The role he have is used mainly for the opening, then he sees no play, unlesss his ability gets abused. Just a gimmick unit right now in my eyes. You have some new models for protoss in the editor. The hybrids  A new combat unit for protoss would be very fun which doesnt take over dragoons role(?) Also the goliath merge with the viking could work even if its not "bw", still cool as hell. I just mean that the collected respons I receive seems to favor BW stuff a lot I dont hate sc2(well i kind of do), but i dont love bw. Infact i would change quite a bit if i were the designer for starbow. Now iam not. When units collide or bring no other use than some gimmick stuff, i dislike it. Doesnt matter if it is sc2 or bw. Imbalances, takes away gameplay so i strive for simpleness as much as i can. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
The core problem with both units lies in their limited use. They counter lings... that is it. If they were to counter some higher "level" light units then they need some better stats, see HOTS Hellbats for the exact amount. Also being the counter to mass lings, really only applies until you can get enough marines rolling, at which point they are almost over the top. This is a problem with both versions. The Firebat/Marauder hybrid was meant to counter this problem, but without a transformation timer, they just became too versatile. In my original idea certain core units would also counter both versions (Immortal for protoss, Hydras for Zerg). We never got there through. However i don't think that adding either the Hellbat or the Firebat alone right now will do the trick. Instead i wanna propose a third alternative something "radical" from the campaign. Presenting the all-exclusive Perdition Turret. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/d/d8/PerditionTurret_SC2_Rend1.jpg) Utilizing Terrazite Corporations own patterned "Zerg-begone" spray with a stationary mounted flamethrower bring in maximum security against various infestations and other foreign objects inside your base, while also leaving no personel in risk of getting roasted alive inside a steel suit.The turret also turns the tools of zerg against them by burrowing out of sight until the swarm comes within range ref So basicly it is a Steathed Hellbat in Siege mode. Sounds awesome right? Well it is NOT... it are infact bloody awful. Even the campaign AI was smart enough to bring detection along. The fact they are burrowed means nothing most of the time and they are outranged by literally everything that shoots. But bloody awful is just how we like our static defense. Advantages First and foremost: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SOBsqZQ.jpg) With an alternative stationary defense we can finally remove the planetary fortress. Now i don't actually hate the fortress in SC2 but i do hate what it have become in starbow. A complete liability to balance. The enemy play becomes all about that stupid timer and trying to bait it out and then attacking when the cannon runs out. And if something goes wrong, or the enemy just underestimated the time then the cannon comes on again and wrecks the entire present army. In SC2 the strength of the fortress is consistant and the enemy knows to stay away or bring enough force to take it down ASAP. I like static defense to be like that, consistant. Position matters alot due to their low range. They can be "out of position" sometimes to provide protection against workers unlike the fortress which is always in the right spot. The turret will be strong vs "braindead" aggression like ling runbies or even Zealot warp-ins. Even if there is enough units to take out the turrets, it will still buy time to evacuate the SCVs. Against "focused" aggression like an army pushing in, or more inteligent harrassment that brings ranged units and detection, it will just be an overpriced supply depot. While being burrowed doesn't matter against enemy units that much it does matter for friendly units. You can be more liberal in your placement, as they won't hinder your movement, and also make them part of a supply walloff. Now whether you consider such "synergy" good or bad is up to yourself, but i think it is fine given that terran got enough issues with simcity. And of course they will be good protection vs mass lings early game. Disadvantages The thought of turret rushes against Zerg might be scary. Alot of it will depend on the requirement and build time of the Perdition turret. I think it is balanceable but it might turn some people off. I know i have suggested stuff from the campaign before, but it is just easier to see the advantages of a design when you have actually used it in various other maps. So is this something you could see work? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
You make it on the command center as an static defence? Or it comes from a unit and can be used outside terran base in gamefield? | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
It was one of the few units who was able to shoot under the dark swarm. It sees plenty of play at high level TvZ in BW. It would more than likely see more action than a reaper ever will. I'd have no qualms with a marauder who simply has the actual firebat attack as secondary instead of aoe missile. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Would tho like it if it could be used in battle outside of terran base. Terran plants that "firebat" on the ground, in battle. Can see some cool tactics here for both sides. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Right now unit speed is scaled down. This was according to rush distances. The problem is that SC2 unit speeds are actually pretty darn close to BW unit speeds, but getting around the map as a ground unit (even going diagnolly) was harder due to pathfinding, turns and corners. Air units in sc2 have suffered as a result. After doing extensive testing and weighing pros and cons my current recommendation is to set unit speeds back to default sc2 but keep BW unit speed relationships. Most things are pretty close to BW, ling is the major one that got buffed if I'm not mistaken. Next: we pay careful attention to maps and the balance they cause. If we try to port maps, we should opt to retain their BW rush distance by sizing them up. So for fighting spirit, we'd size a 128x128 fighting spirit up by around 15% bigger to make up for rush distance. This will make units seem to move more naturally, air unit micro will feel better. Biggest downside is any decrease in speed will hurt micro. I'm not incredibly worried about it as micro seems to arise more from unit speed relationships, and the physics of each unit, example: hydralisk and zealots standing in place for a .3 second to attack. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Also, let's try dat Sumadin turret. I think I'm on-board with it too. At least for testing. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 30 2013 05:02 Xiphias wrote: I vote for Dec to make a test-map with this! I think it can be really good, and REALLY IMPORTANT! Also, let's try dat Sumadin turret. I think I'm on-board with it too. At least for testing. 148 x 148 Fighting Spirit Finished + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qEMRJSS.jpg) vs http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/237_Fighting Spirit.jpg This time I'll be sure to give EACH player a random scv so its fair. Rush distances: + Show Spoiler + Brood War Fighting Spirit 128x128 42.5 diagnol (bottom left to top right) 34.5 (bottom left to bottom right) 148x148 Fighting Spirit (SC2 scv speed) 41.7 33.871 Welp, roughly one second off, time to remake the entire map! | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
But it is important that units do not overlap. They must have quite different advantages and disadvantages. To accomplish that, there are a few different variables a game designer can tweak; - Damage and HP values. (e.g. making unit X good vs one type of units, and unit Y good vs another type of unit). - Range of the units (roach vs hydra) - Mobility of the unit While the former results in hardcounters, that isn't to say it is neccarily bad. There are more nuannces than that. The hardcounter system can be benefical for gameplay when; 1) It adds unique micro to the gameplay (I believe Immortal + Stalker does that if they have proper stats) 2) It rewards the opponent for a diverse unit composition, which increases the amount of unique micro for the opponent (e.g. while marine + maurauder doesn't offer unique micro, it forces Stalker + Immortal, which adds more unique micro to the protoss player). 3) It makes the gameplay better, e.g. more fun action (the introduction of the roach means that we can buff the stalker vs hydralisk, which means protoss can be more aggressive early game vs zerg). Hardcounters are bad/irrelevant for the game when; 1) They have too much damage against a certain type of units, which increases volatility of the game and reduces micro(an Immortal with 50 damage vs armored is one example of that I believe). 2) They function in isolated situations. For instance Scout vs banshee is a terrible hardcounter dynamic as banshee often times will be without support. Immortal + Stalker vs mech is differently as you need a mix of both to fight in a battle, and while we will see some isolated Stalker vs Vulture battles, the Stalker count would be lower than in that fight than if you only massed Dragoons. So the problem with Stalker + Dragoon (vs terran) and Marine + Maurauder is that it really doesn't accomplish anything at all. It is just adding more units into the game which have very similar roles. While there may be a slight amount of synergy between Dragoons and Stlalkers, it is entirely more likely that one of them will be dominant vs terran, and then it is just easier to mass that unit rather than worrying about upgrades for both of them. Marine/Maurauder doesn't add anything unique vs protoss. Which unit are you supposed to get vs blink stalkers? As I see it, Stalkers with blink/kite micro rapes both of them. The maurauder hardcountering the Stalker is benefical for gameplay-purposes as such a mobile unit as the Stalker needs a straight up hardcounter (like the Lurker is vs the Stalker). | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Just a couple of notes: 1) It adds unique micro to the gameplay (I believe Immortal + Stalker does that if they have proper stats) The question is what "proper stats" is. Stalker, Immortal and Dragoon are indeed very similar units since they operate pretty much in the same way. How different do they need to be in stats to feel unique to each other? Is that even possible since they share so many fundamental similarities? Right now there is maybe a 25% difference between a Stalker and a Dragoon in stats. Neither unit is hard counter vs Unit X or Y. They are just better vs different kinds of units, and to some degree in different situations. (For example Stalkers can blink etc) So the problem with Stalker + Dragoon (vs terran) and Marine + Maurauder is that it really doesn't accomplish anything at all. It is just adding more units into the game which have very similar roles. While there may be a slight amount of synergy between Dragoons and Stlalkers, it is entirely more likely that one of them will be dominant vs terran, and then it is just easier to mass that unit rather than worrying about upgrades for both of them. Marine/Maurauder doesn't add anything unique vs protoss. Which unit are you supposed to get vs blink stalkers? As I see it, Stalkers with blink/kite micro rapes both of them. The maurauder hardcountering the Stalker is benefical for gameplay-purposes as such a mobile unit as the Stalker needs a straight up hardcounter (like the Lurker is vs the Stalker). If it turns out that Dragoon is dominant in every way vs Terran, compared to the Stalker, I have stated that they might need to be differentiated further. There are two ways here: 1) Either make the threats vs a certain unit stronger. (Make T units able to punish heavy Dragoon play for example) 2) Either seperate the stats of the Dragoon + Stalker further, to give each unit room more strength and weakness. (And if possible, more unique control.) Right now I use the 1) alternative. Dragoons are almost as in BW, just to maintain that balance. Instead T "should" have ways to punish heavy Dragoon play. Which indirectly intends to reward Stalkers in the mix. Do we know that Dragoon play is dominant? Is Stalker totally redudant in TvP? Stimmed Marauders cab´t beat Blink Stalkers? Is this even explored yet at all in real games? (Since I get many questions about what unit is suppose to be vs what unit. Yes, I have done a lot of testing in the unit tester in the editor. But it is different in a real game because of factors like economy, build time, maps etc.) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The idea is cool, but now I really just wanna "wrap up" Starbow. I will not throw in completely new concepts. (Maybe replace a few of the current spells, like Breed, Safeguard etc) Only areas I look at: - balance the macro mechanics (if possible) - Get all maps size and unit speed "correct" - Get all attacks vs shield to work. - Firebat instead of Marauder splash - Stalker & Dragoon (Immortal?) - Bio micro vs Protoss micro lame? - Corsair with anti gravity beam problematic? - Carrier micro - Spider mines - Viper spells. - Viking - Rework spells on the Sentinel. - Scout? - Potential for a "fun" Roach? - Devourer & Guardian - a lot of small bugs Unless I have forgotten something. Luckily many of you help me with this in different ways. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I found these in the unit tester. Marauder do 21damage to stalkers shield. Their max damage is 16 Vulture do 15damage to stalkers shield. Their max damage is 20 btw, cant get it to work in the editor. Would love to see that hybrid destroyer in action | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
Scan and econ combination* That might be the only additional "issue" that I can think of at the moment. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@Bugs I found these in the unit tester. Marauder do 21damage to stalkers shield. Their max damage is 16 Vulture do 15damage to stalkers shield. Their max damage is 20 Yea, some damage effects vs shields are a bit off. Not sure what causes it since it looks "right" in the editor. Science Vessel too early in tech tree? Scan and econ combination* That might be the only additional "issue" that I can think of at the moment. Ah yeah. In todays patch, I will move up Vessel to require Fusion core. (Which corresponds to its place in the tech tree in BW) A potential solution for Orbital is to add an upgrade at E-bay. Costs 100/100. Increases energy regeneration on Orbital command by 50%? Since both Calldown SCV + Calldown Supply have a cooldown, those two spells can not be casted more often anyway? This upgrade will mostly make sure Scan can be used a bit more often. (To compensate for Spider mines not being able to detect.) Would this "help" ? @Firebat I will bring him in today, instead of the Marauder splash thing. He seems to suck very hard vs Protoss with the normal BW values, when I try him in the tester. I consider to make him cost maybe 75/25 (instead of 50/25 from BW), but in return he has higher life. This makes him a bit more viable vs Zealots at least.. hmm.. | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
A potential solution for Orbital is to add an upgrade at E-bay. Costs 100/100. Increases energy regeneration on Orbital command by 50%? Since both Calldown SCV + Calldown Supply have a cooldown, those two spells can not be casted more often anyway? This upgrade will mostly make sure Scan can be used a bit more often. (To compensate for Spider mines not being able to detect.) Would this "help" ? To pefectly mirror the BW situation with a comsat, this upgrade would make it so the energy required for the calldowns is regenerated as quickly as it could be used by those abilities. This way the scan would "have it's own energy", to some extent, or am I missing something? | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Right now, protoss falls behind terran very hard because of ecobooster worse, so i have to go eco build i will abuse dts when cb gets buffed | ||
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