EPT[A] Starbow - Page 429
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 01 2013 09:13 Fishgle wrote: hey December/Xiphias/Kabel right now vespene geysers go down to 2 vespene indefinitely - why not edit the Empty Harvest Amount instead? That way I can tell if my geysers are depleted just by looking at them That is the current method being used, but for some reason it isn't swapping models. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
The question is what "proper stats" is. Stalker, Immortal and Dragoon are indeed very similar units since they operate pretty much in the same way. How different do they need to be in stats to feel unique to each other? Is that even possible since they share so many fundamental similarities? Right now there is maybe a 25% difference between a Stalker and a Dragoon in stats. Neither unit is hard counter vs Unit X or Y. They are just better vs different kinds of units, and to some degree in different situations. (For example Stalkers can blink etc) Looking at TvP, right now this is how the units works; Stalker: Good DPS vs Vultures. Bad HP vs vultures. Dragoon: Good DPS vs tanks, bad HP vs tanks. One could argue this was a diferentiation if there was any way for players to take advantage of these differences in a practical way. But in most situations you can't really abuse these differences to your advantage. For instance you can't really put your Dragoons in front to protect your Stalkers when you battle Vultures, and do the opposite when you battle tanks (its just not realistic for that to occur in a scenario). So when looking at giving core units differentiated roles, one can choose one of two approaches; Approach 1: Make one unit more buffy in some situations than the other hand and give the buffy unit lower range but higher cost efficiency. Approach 2: Maintain a similar mobility and HP/cost of both units, and give both units stats so that they are more/less cost effective against various types of units. Right now I use the 1) alternative. Dragoons are almost as in BW, just to maintain that balance. I think maintaing BW balance while using the exact same units and addinng new core units into the game, is an incredibly challenging task. A new core unit is very likely to change how the game-dynamics and timings works and thus balance is already changed right there. Then when you add in new units to punish the old "BW-unit", balance will be further changed. I won't say it is an impossible task, but I actually believe that developing a "clean" balanced game (with BW as the core) will be easier if you are willing to use the "hard-counter" system when it is benefical for the game. Do we know that Dragoon play is dominant? Is Stalker totally redudant in TvP? Stimmed Marauders cab´t beat Blink Stalkers? I previously tested how efficient Stalkers are vs Marines when kited. Maurauders are even slower than Marines when stimmed and I thus kiting will likely be even further rewarded. Previsouly Maurauders did 33% more damage to Stalkers which still made them good vs Stalkers. But with blink and more effective HP, I am quite sure that Stalkers are heavily dominant to Dragoons vs bio. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Approach 1: Make one unit more buffy in some situations than the other hand and give the buffy unit lower range but higher cost efficiency. Approach 2: Maintain a similar mobility and HP/cost of both units, and give both units stats so that they are more/less cost effective against various types of units. Yea, but it comes down to how large the differences in stats need to be, if we go for a more hard counter relationship. It also needs to make some mathematical sense, to decently well keep the BW relationships alive. I do not say it is impossible. But if I get new values I can try them in the test map. Previsouly Maurauders did 33% more damage to Stalkers which still made them good vs Stalkers. But with blink and more effective HP, I am quite sure that Stalkers are heavily dominant to Dragoons vs bio. Not sure what you are referring to. The Marauder has done 18 dmg vs Stalker for a long time now. I don´t understand why the Marauder should be worse now. Have you tested this? | ||
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
*Tested on Normal Fighting Spirit map. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
This would be fine if the firebat was a zerg unit  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
Not sure what you are referring to. The Marauder has done 18 dmg vs Stalker for a long time now. I don´t understand why the Marauder should be worse now. Have you tested this? Maurauder does 12 damage to medium units (?). Yea, but it comes down to how large the differences in stats need to be, if we go for a more hard counter relationship. It also needs to make some mathematical sense, to decently well keep the BW relationships alive. I do not say it is impossible. But if I get new values I can try them in the test map. I think there are two approaches with a scaled down Immortal; Approach 1: It 5-shot tanks but dies in 3-shots to them as well assuming no upgrades. Approach 2: It 6-shot tanks but dies in 4-shots to them. In approach 2, they are a bit better, but dno which of them creates the best gameplay. Stalker should be changed back to armored. 14/14 damage vs medium and light (I guess). Stalker should tank the same amount of shots vs a vulture as an Immortal. Whether it should be able to survive 2 or 3 tank-shots is also a debateable question. I think they may need 16/16 (or 14/16) damage if they only can survive 2 tank-shots and 14/14 if they can survive 3. Banshee I think could maintain its light armor. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I reported yesterday he do like 21 damage to stalkerse shield. And to his health he do more than 16. He should do 12 to his health minus the armor | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
People also say that the Firebat is one-shotting zealots. The Firebat is insane. For some reason, it deals huge dmg vs the closest unit. I don´t understand what causes it. I´ve played around with different variations but I can´t get it to work. How about the detection range of mobile detectors? If it is 11 in BW, I will let it be 11 here too. Maurauder does 12 damage to medium units (?). Yes. Marauder is bugged according to the unit tester. I reported yesterday he do like 21 damage to stalkerse shield. And to his health he do more than 16. He should do 12 to his health minus the armor The Marauder is not bugged. A couple of attacks vs shields are bugged, but not the Marauder. It always deals 6 extra dmg vs mechanical units, regardless of armor class. It is written both on the Marauder-Wiki-page and on the button on the Marauder. I should have been more clear with it. But that is why I ask you to test relationships in game, and not only look at pure numbers. Because sometimes information is missed and we come to wrong conclusions. I think there are two approaches with a scaled down Immortal; Approach 1: It 5-shot tanks but dies in 3-shots to them as well assuming no upgrades. Approach 2: It 6-shot tanks but dies in 4-shots to them. In approach 2, they are a bit better, but dno which of them creates the best gameplay. Stalker should be changed back to armored. 14/14 damage vs medium and light (I guess). Stalker should tank the same amount of shots vs a vulture as an Immortal. Whether it should be able to survive 2 or 3 tank-shots is also a debateable question. I think they may need 16/16 (or 14/16) damage if they only can survive 2 tank-shots and 14/14 if they can survive 3. Banshee I think could maintain its light armor. If you give me exact numbers I can try it in the test map. Anyway, I will upload a small patch and an update to Fighting spirit in ca 1 hour. December has modified all units movement speed so it fits better with the BW scale. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I actually tested marauder in the unittester, i looked at the tooltip several times. Still missed it everytime @Kabel If u watch bisu first person vods, you will see how pvz plays out almost everygame. Atleast the opening he do is played 90-100% in none-practice matches. Atleast very often. FFE>stargate>one/two corsairs is very normal for every protoss. In starbow, zerg have queens and also can make sunken in main and root to natural. The queens neglect scouting information and also keeps zerg not wasting larva for units as much Tweaked sentinel can replace corsairs with sentinels, for more action for toss in theory PvT, you will learn stuff also. This mu is more buildup i feel than pvz, atleast when bisu plays pvz Rushing arbiter like this. Or atleast make it fast is meta and has been for several years now(?) Iam not 100% updated. @macrobooster, ecobooster Could help alot with uptime. Would be cool if the macroboosters in general became more "Important". It could lead to more action. Thought about trying what lalush talked about? Doesnt have to make it brainless, but for sure make it more impactful with shorter cooldowns especially on production. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
@unit speed, will this not have an impact on the economy? :o It seems like the starting income is quite large with the new speed. Edit: dec says he just fixed it | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
Tomorrow I make a trip to go to Genova, where I will not have internet available. I'll be back this Sunday and I'll update Starbow tester map. Good luck to all. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
It always deals 6 extra dmg vs mechanical units My bad, wasn't aware of that. I wrote my suggested stats for the Immortal on page 411. That implies Tanks 4-shots Immortals. I guess then Stalkers should be two-shotted (no upgrades), but if stalkers have + 1 armor they can tank one more shot (upgrades matter). Thus Stalkers should be armored with 110/30 life. Suggested damage stats: 10.5 vs armored, 16 vs medium, 16 vs light (let's try how this works). The reasoning for the change in HP/shield is to make them tank a similar amount of shots as Immortals vs Vultures (24). One interesting (unintended) conesequence of these changes in shield values is that placing the EMP at the correct units matters more. EMP will be pretty good vs Immortals, but almost useless vs Stalkers, so you need to carefully decide where/when you use it. Could help alot with uptime. Would be cool if the macroboosters in general became more "Important". It could lead to more action. Thought about trying what lalush talked about? Doesnt have to make it brainless, but for sure make it more impactful with shorter cooldowns especially on production. I think what Lalush is talking about is to increase skillcap by forcing players to go back to their bases and spend a bit more APM with some clicks. I personally feel that this isn't the correct way to increase the skillcap. I think unit control is a much more exiciting way for players to express their skills. The more difficult macro becomes, the less time players can spend on controlling their units. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
# = # of workers. # ------ Best test -------- What we have now ---- BroodWar 8 ------- 544 --------------- 572 --------------------------- 543 12 ----- 683 --------------- 700 --------------------------- 710 16 ----- 832 --------------- 850 --------------------------- 811 20 ----- 939 --------------- 920 --------------------------- 955 24 ----- 984 -------------- 980 --------------------------- 1136 28 ----- 1035 ------------ 980 --------------------------- 1136 32 ----- 1061 ------------- 980 ----------------------------1136 Did the quick math on these numbers (64 mineral mining workers) 3base to 4tbase income in BW = 6%. 3base to 5base income in BW = 15%. For 48 mining workers in BW, the numbers are 7%/19%. 3base to 4base income with these numbers for new Sbow: 18% 3base to 5base income for new Sbow: 28% Conclusion; Even though a lot of time definitely is spent on the econ, I unfortunately don't think it will replicate the essence of the BW. The reward of taking a quick 3rd and a quick 4th with these econs are simply too high relative to BW. In BW terrans could opt between an agreesive 3base approach vs protoss or they could choose to take a quicker 4th and turtle. With this new econ I believe the former approach is heavily nerfed. I suggest we try my modified approach (7 workers mineral pathes and a 0.84/0.84/0.55 approach) on the test map. That approach does a pretty good job of replicating the rewards and incentivies of the BW econ. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
I mean in a bit more relevant way than it is now. For example, zerg uses inject. Gets one or two additiona larva and have to use it within 15sec or they die. CB halfes BT of a unit in gateway till that unit is made | ||
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