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It would buff zerg alot. Since their larva is the same time as worker time.
My advise is not to increase it. Also, i dont like that worker gets up in time in general. Feels bad to me, cant explain entirely.
The cooldown on SCVcalldown, i dont understand that. Good macro terrans will have the same impact now almost 100% as if it is 30 or 40seconds.
If I do not increase worker BT, then macro mechanics must be much weaker. Otherwise we get really fast saturation time. And if we do, it is even more beneficial to fast expans since it is much faster to gain good income from it, compared to BW.
So it comes down to: Shall we aim to have quite similar saturation time in Sbow as in BW? If so, shall players be able to use macro mechanics as a way to boost their worker production? If so, that does not work with normal BW worker time.
40 sec cooldown on SCV might not be optimal. But something must be done since it is currently skewed between the races. I am open to other mathematical suggestions too.
@CC first
With OC nerf, terran will probably have 2 scvs less at a certain point into the game, however previously he could easily have 36 workers vs protoss 28. I guess that differnece is now reduced. However this is an even larger nerf to 1rax expand. Regardless of the exact strenght of macromechanics, the presence of them will always make CC first stronger than it was in BW since there is a double-reward for taking a base faster than your opponent.
Well, then maybe this problem requires another approach. Either remove Calldown SCV , or maybe add Barrack as a requirement. Or something else. (As you have talker about earlier.)
Cause what I have in mind atm is to find a way to make the balance ok between the macro mechanics.
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On October 02 2013 20:39 Foxxan wrote:
I would like to test this.
Would prefer if first and second were higher, but this sounds good anyway, all in all it gives slightly more even together
the first and second.
42workers.
Plus lets say six more for atleast two gases.
In practice two gases should be standard or something. I think we will see two gases more than not, maybe three.
Still, lets round it to 50workers. With sbow macromechanics, it should be relatively easy to get this amount.
I feel almost as in bw, only zerg were the one taking bases like this with low worker count. Doesnt sound problematic to me this one.
Zerg will suffer from this more than the other races.
Although right now with the present economy, protoss and terran suffer more.
What the third worker actually do is encourage more action than turtle and take more bases, atleast in theory.
Even in practice, in broodwar over many years it was alot more two base play.
Gave it some more thought.
0.8/0.8/0.5
Could this in theory lead to more "mandatory" three workers per base?
Almost as taking a fourth doesnt pay off that much. Mostly for the gas. (?)
Other way to do the x/x/x so third worker have good effeciency?
Well if you have a "solid" worker count, then incentivies and reward for taking a 4th base will be quite similar to a "normal" BW game. If you read my previous post on the subject, taking a 4th actually doesn't give you that big of an eco lead in BW. What really matters is for protoss to be on 5 bases relative to the terrans 3 bases.
One change we may see is that zerg will no longer get these risky expansions at the other end of the map before they have tier 2 tech out (vs terran). Instead, they are more likely to turtle on 2 bases till lair tech is out.
While I would have prefered the BW econ, I don't think this change here is that significant for both playing experience and balance. At least I would that the access to Queens (with 60% inject efficiency) is likely to be an even larger buff to zerg than scv calldown for terran.
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Cause what I have in mind atm is to find a way to make the balance ok between the macro mechanics.
Redesign the scv calldown.
Makes two units at the same time - The higher techbuilding, the more energycost. The spell lasts just a few seconds so terran needs to use it fast.
With further tweaking and stuff.
Overall, high the energy cost of all eco boosters.
At the same time, a buff to CB but ofcourse higher energycost (so its same boost as the others eco, and better macroboost at the same time)
THere must be other ways than this, just some overall thoughts about this.
To be more clear:
Was thinking 35-40 second cost for all "eco/macro-boosters".
The terran new one:
He casts it on his barack/cc/factory, and within five seconds he can make another unit so they produce two at the same time.
Now to get it balanced, when the spell ends. The second unit gets in queue with the existing buildtime he have
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Well, then maybe this problem requires another approach. Either remove Calldown SCV , or maybe add Barrack as a requirement. Or something else. (As you have talker about earlier.)
Cause what I have in mind atm is to find a way to make the balance ok between the macro mechanics.
What about doing this;
1) Remove scv calldown
2) Remove the current way reactors work,
and instead replace it with this idea;
- Ability available at OC
- Cost 50 energy and 25 minerals
- Duration: 60 seconds
- Effect: Calls down a reactor on an existing production building. This can be used to speed up the production for a certain period.
Whether this also should work for tech-lab'ed units - Not sure about that. But regardless, this will "solve" the "take expo too fast"- issue and reactor-issue, while giving terran a decision-related macromechanic.
One consequence of this may be that protoss gets too far ahead economically relative to terran, since they still have access to CB on Nexus. I don't want to remove that option (yet), instead I want to try a different approach;
- OC, 75 minerals.Start with 25 energy down from 50. This has to effects; 1) Early access to scan more expensive. 2) You can't use the new reactor super early game to make various types of cheese super strong.
- Nexus; 75 minerals. Start with 25 energy down from 50. This means that getting CB superearly is less rewarded. Atm. it is quite valuable to have early access to two chrono's just after you have upgrade nexus. With this, I believe it will be optimal to get the Nexus a bit later, which means that protoss's won't mass chrono probes out early game.
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If I understand you, Terran gets another version of Chrono boost?
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On October 03 2013 02:19 Kabel wrote:
Terran gets Chrono boost?
Terran already has "chrono boost" on workers That will be removed and replaced with an "ability-reactor"/chrono boost on production.
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If I understand you, Terran gets another version of Chrono boost?
Dont know which one you asking.
Yes they get. But as Hider say they already have "another version of cb"
Inject giving seperate Larva that can not be used to morph Drones is a bit tricky. (And annoying to having to deal with two kinds of larva?)
Yes agree.
Make the queen produce those larva anywhere on creep
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I really want to just go for the light version here and try that before chancing the current macro mechanics into something else. try the number buff/nerf first and take it from there is my opinion. It's nice to have other options if that does not work, however.
Yes agree.
Make the queen produce those larva anywhere on creep
We had this a loooong time ago and it was reworked to what we have now. Not sure why it was changed, but Kabel does.
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Yea I too would prefer an easy mathematical way here, if possible, rather than to rebuild the macro mechanics.
I did not upload the math changes I proposed. Need to calculate them better.
Anyone wanna play? I can be online for the first time in over a week
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Thought about it a bit more: We can also still maintain a modified version of Scv calldown if we give terran a new ability.;
Scv calldown
- Mineral cost = 50
- Energy cost increased to 60 from 25
- Cooldown unchanged at 30 seconds
This is an important nerf for a couple of reasons;
1) Now that there is an alternative ability, the opportunity cost of using energy on scv's has increased. Thus, expect less mass spamming of scvs.
2) Now that starting energy has been reduced, terran doesn't have super early access to scv cooldown.
3) Energy cost has also been increased, which both increases the effect of the two former reasons.
Yea I too would prefer an easy mathematical way her
You can't really do that very easily since the races work in completley different ways.
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Then you either need to remove reaper or simply give protoss a similar non-allinish way of punishing terran CC first.
- OB requires slightly higher tech. (E-bay, factory)
- SCV calldown has an X second initial cooldown once the OB is completed.
- Or, as you say. make sure P can punish it. (Longer BT on bunkers?)
You can't really do that very easily since the races work in completley different ways.
You have no suggestion on how to balance the current macro mechanics vs each other, and compared to the saturation time of BW?
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The reaper has been nerfed btw. Dec's hidden surprise. Since the maps are smaller now, it has received a speed nerf and they are "stuck" when they fire for a very short amount of time so melee units can deal with them better. I'm up for a STARBOW NIGHT!!!
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Well, the nerf to worker buildtime cant work because it would buff zerg to much
We had this a loooong time ago and it was reworked to what we have now. Not sure why it was changed, but Kabel does.
This was when creep gave movementspeed to units right?
Now queen, and statis defence gets it only. Would feel cooler now somehow...
Was it fun to use?
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On October 03 2013 02:33 Xiphias wrote:
The reaper has been nerfed btw. Dec's hidden surprise. Since the maps are smaller now, it has received a speed nerf and they are "stuck" when they fire for a very short amount of time so melee units can deal with them better. I'm up for a STARBOW NIGHT!!!
Not again.  I already thought reaper was awfull pre-patch against normal builds. The bt nerf from 38 seconds to 45 seconds was IMO unjustified. Both queens and Stalkers can be out before Reaper is there very easily.
Has reaper been compensated in any way to make up for the fact that it can't actually fight meele units straight up?
You have no suggestion on how to balance the current macro mechanics vs each other, and compared to the saturation time of BW?
This reactor-ability has the following differneces relative to chrono;
- Cost twice as much energy
- 8 times as effective
- Cost 25 minerals
- Doesn't work on workers and upgrades
The reason it needs to be much more effective than CB is that there are fewer ways to use it, so the cost-benefit analysis that players make, must work differently.
With a nerfed scv calldown still in the game, then it perhaps isn't neccesary to also make it cost minerals. Then we could nerf duration from 60 to 25 seconds (still slightly more efficienct than CB, which I still believe is warranted as CB is more flexible + can be used on UPS).
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In the dawn of this project, I fooled around with completely new macro mechanics and units for the races.
- T could calldown a thing on any production facilitiy that made it able to produce 2 units at the same time during X seconds.
- Z could plant eggs on the ground with a Queen. Those eggs lasted X seconds and worked like a larva.
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So with terran having "two units at the same time", scvs or units.
Zerg have two additional larva with the queen anywhere on creep
How about for protoss, mix the warpin and decrease buildtime in the same:
When the unit is done, if the rallypoint is within pylon radius. The units gets a 5-sec warpin(?)
Or just simple remove warpgate upgrade. Give a seperate ability to nexus.
You use it on x production, when the unit is done u can warp it in via pylon radius(warpprism or pylon)
Like it?
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On October 03 2013 02:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2013 02:33 Xiphias wrote:
The reaper has been nerfed btw. Dec's hidden surprise. Since the maps are smaller now, it has received a speed nerf and they are "stuck" when they fire for a very short amount of time so melee units can deal with them better. I'm up for a STARBOW NIGHT!!! Not again. I already thought reaper was awfull pre-patch against normal builds. The bt nerf from 38 seconds to 45 seconds was IMO unjustified. Both queens and Stalkers can be out before Reaper is there very easily. Has reaper been compensated in any way to make up for the fact that it can't actually fight meele units straight up?
It the freeze attack is VERY slight and it can fight melee units strait up. Also smaller maps = imba reapers, what do you expect?
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@Reaper
The reaper isn't that nerfed. It has been given a .1 second stand. If you were to fire right next to a ling you will not have takem a hit. This wasn't the case in SC2 due to units not "missing their attacks". Reapers are still amazing at map control vs zerg at the moment. I keep the speed relationship the same but I still worry about it.
They force spines, queen defense, and a Z requires speed to be able to actually kill reapers open field.
Not to mention they stop scouting lings. In typical BW meta Z is able to scout with lings to check for incoming bio pushes, T is able to scout with an scv until speed pops (and even then Z has to really micro against T's scv juking to fully deny it).
Queens and reapers hurt scouting and information for both races. A reaper however IS able to scout.
@Macro mechanics
I love the egg idea, always have. I even using it a looooong time ago before I started casting and getting involved.
Production thing sounds cool. Right now Terran's macro macro doesn't require back to base.
After saturating with scv drop, you no longer need to return because reactors are on auto pilot.
@Smart Casting
THIS IS EASY TO TURN OFF. I repeat, if we wanted smart casting turned off for any abilities it would be really easy.
The question becomes, do we want to turn off smart casting (hurts P the most, than T, than Z) when we can't turn off unlimited selection at the same time.
I'm not the biggest fan of super apm macro mechanics ala BW style, but with smart casting it is actually expressing skill. It still seems kinda interface being troublesome sorta thing though.
Additionally, this will even further alienate any sc2 players (especially 12 unit selection but of course there is no good way to do that).
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It the freeze attack is VERY slight and it can fight melee units strait up. Also smaller maps = imba reapers, what do you expect?
Double-queens could be out there back when BT was 38 seconds. After 45-second BT, I think it was just useless since queens rape reapers harder than they do in HOTS.
Stalker could be out there with only 1 chrono used after early 1gate expo when BT was 45-seconds. This made reapers pretty bad. At least in HOTS you could have it inside opponents base for some seconds before Stalker was out.
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On October 03 2013 02:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +It the freeze attack is VERY slight and it can fight melee units strait up. Also smaller maps = imba reapers, what do you expect? Double-queens could be out there back when BT was 38 seconds. After 45-second BT, I think it was just useless since queens rape reapers harder than they do in HOTS. Stalker could be out there with only 1 chrono used after early 1gate expo when BT was 45-seconds. This made reapers pretty bad. At least in HOTS you could have it inside opponents base for some seconds before Stalker was out. Right now, I think reapers have been made even more gimmcky and less fun to use than previously (that stop-thing is really annyoying for reapers IMO).
We're moving from 168x168 ish maps to 144x144 maps, so that will help.
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EPT
