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@reactor
I kinda like the 30% increase in speed.
But if terran gets this, other races need something like this also.
But the other races already have something like this?
Chrono boost & Inject increases the production efficiency of their production structures.
The numbers are probably not balanced though.
@Dragoon vs Vulture
Try for example X Dragoons vs same cost of Vultures. Mix in Stalkers in the Dragoon composition and see if there is any different. Does Blink affect it?
Keep in mind that the plant time of Spider mines seems to be off in Starbow. It is hard to trap Dragoon with Spider mines atm, since they are planted so slow. If we get those numbers right, having pure Dragoons vs Vultures will be a bit weaker? (And Stalkers will be better at cleaning up mines who are just planted due to faster attack speed)
Foxxan, if you have BW, can you double check the time it takes for a Vulture to plant a Spider mine?
@Firebat, or hellbat
Well i would say firebat even though the hellbat is cool. I dont know the stats of this unit now(?). Its likely its very good against zealots?
Anyway, the firebat from barack is crucial for terran early agressive against zerg. Also, if bio somehow gets available against protoss, isnt the firebat used there something?
Firebat is probably a lot easier yes. Even though I kinda like the Hellbat. But it will maybe be too hard to balance.. hmm
@Hellbat If this unit got added, we would never see Bio in TvP ever, only full on Mech. The needed Vehic Wep Upgrade would be too costly for the Terran to include Hellbats in a Bio composition versus Protoss. Firebats would make Bio at least somewhat viable, even though I still prefer going Mech myself.
Yeah this is what I fear. But the model looks so goood T_T
And I love mixed Bio + Mech play in more match-ups, since it involves more types of units.
(Medic + Hellbat = true love between barrack and factory.)
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Foxxan, the Reactor change would be more of a nerf than a buff so the other races don't need change to be honest.
Right now, you basically pay 50/50 for a free additional Factory costing 200/100. This change would stabilize it, if you look into the calculations Kabel made, it seems pretty valid.
@Hellbat If this unit got added, we would never see Bio in TvP ever, only full on Mech. The needed Vehic Wep Upgrade would be too costly for the Terran to include Hellbats in a Bio composition versus Protoss. Firebats would make Bio at least somewhat viable, even though I still prefer going Mech myself. 
I do want the role of the Firebat unit to be filled, but perhaps you can have the Hellbat be produced from Barracks and require Bio Wep Upgrade? :')
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We could just add and adjust the Hellbat for a couple of days? No harm in keeping it in the Testmap for a while.
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But the other races already have something like this?
Chrono boost & Inject increases the production efficiency of their production structures
Hmm. I just looked at it. Dont know the purpose of this thing actually.
Lets say its 1/3 of the building 100%. Why have this thing?
Terran still lacks the thing chronoobost or queen do.
Keep in mind, building a structure for terran = scv mining time lost + traveltime
I would think it would be cooler, just making an extra building than the reactor=more clean in my eyes.
Terran still lacks a thing chronoboost do.
If i were to choose i would sepeate the scan from the shared energy. You unlock it with OB>Than to unlock scan you need some additional cost like 25/25 and extra buildtime to compensate that in broodwar=terran lost worker while upgrading the scan.
Also, i would probably replace the supply calldown with a "macro boost" instead.
I like the supply calldown but its actually really costly in the long run? Hard to balance? When terran are saturated?
Much easeri in my eyes if all races have a "ecobooster" and "macrobooster"
EDIT: I thought abit about it behaving more identical to cb, the macromechanic.
So terran uses it on his factory>faster siegetanks.
This is better than using it on gateway>faster dragoon, so i thought how imba for a few seconds but the balance lies in the cost? Terran cant use it regularly because his money cant keep up?
Somebalance must be like this atleast
Dont know how to do the macromechanic for terran.
Maybe change the macromechanic for protoss also on buildings(not nexus)?
Foxxan, if you have BW, can you double check the time it takes for a Vulture to plant a Spider mine?
Okay, i just checked it.
On faster in broodwar , i planted a mine
It seems very close to eachother. Faster in broodwar is fasterspeed than starbow slightly, so might like 0.3 faster/slower plant is needed in starbow(my eyes cant see 100%). Hard to tell.
Bigger difference comes how the mines behave, they dont behave like in broodwar 100% right now i feel.
When they pop up, they are not as fast, and do not hit in impact immediately
@Hellbat
Whats the purpose of this unit btw? Mech already have vulture=good at harassing, good vs light with spidermines.
Hellbat is almost the same role in my eyes, seems a bit unneccessary. Also, a completely new unit for terran, while protoss dragoons are already nerfed
EDIT:
Kabel, that new model i suggested, hybrid destroyer.
Do he have any sort of attack right now? I would just love to see him in the unittester.
Oh thats right, you cant get it to work? If u get it to work, possible to add him in there?
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I think the Reactor should stay, it's something that Sc2 did correct. Allowing the Terran to either massproduce lighter units or produce a hightech unit at a time, and to be swapped at will - I like that mechanic. It shouldn't be touched, if anything there should be a decrease of cost in the other buildings of Protoss but I do not see it necessary at the moment. It's hard to see if the balance really is off and where the races need to be buffed this early, since we do not have the best of the best playing.
The only problem I find with the Terran race at the moment is the Science vessel perhaps coming in to play too early.
Why must it do so? Because the Terran needs to choose between economic Calldown or Scan, unlike in BW when all Energy could be gathered for moving out in aggression despite the presence of Stealthunits.
I'm suggesting a combining of the SCV and Supply Calldown, to be a Mineralcosting Ability with a cooldown. The combined Calldown spell would function like if you target Ground/Minerals when you cast the spell, it calls down an SCV, if you target a Depot, it calls down the Supply depot improvement. This way the Science Vessel does not have to come in to play so early and could be delayed in the Tech tree, to require a Fusion Core or a similar hightech building for production. Right now, the Ghost Academy only requires the Barracks, so the Vessel is REAAALLY fast, unlike the Defiler/Viper/Arbiter.
@Vulture SpiderMines You're not alone about noticing the difference from BW to Starbow in planting the SpiderMines. It does seem slightly off and slow.
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@Vulture SpiderMines You're not alone about noticing the difference from BW to Starbow in planting the SpiderMines. It does seem slightly off and slow.
Broodwar gamespeed is faster.
It's hard to see if the balance really is off and where the races need to be buffed this early
No it aint
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@Reactor and macro mechanics
Protoss is compensated at least by having Warp gates. I think that will turn out to be the most broken thing in the game. Insane macro advantage for Protoss. Instant Zealots & Stalkers anywhere on the map. 200 supply vs 200 supply Terran, combat, remax at any location on the map. The longer the game goes, the stronger mass Warp gates become.
1 Warp gate does not matter. But 20 does, especially with a strong economy in the back. Snowball effect. The more ahead Protoss is, the harder will it be to punish him due to Warp gates. Unless other races get some kind of macro advantage too. Or something. Hm..
I like that Queens, OB, Nexus share energy between abilities. It gives decision on how to use it. If T uses Scan, or P uses Rift, or Z plants a lot of Creep or uses Nurturing swarm, then yes there is a sacrifice in econ. As long as the sacrifice is small AND even between the races, there is no problem?
T uses a Scan. Looses 1 Calldown SCV. (But gains a lot of info)
P uses Rift. Looses 2 Chrono boost. (Allows P to do an early attack or save units/workers in trouble)
Z uses Creep tumor or Nurturing Swarm. Loses 1 Inject. (Boosts his defence, gives vision, connects bases, heals)
Much also depends on how important for example Calldown SCV is for the economy. If it is 60 second cooldown, it is not as important to use. If it is 20 seconds cooldown, it is a lot more important to use it often? (If all macro mechanics for workers are weaker I mean, there is less of a sacrifice.)
Long ago, I did create a new kind of macro mechanic for Terran. It was called "Overcharge" or something. Orbital Command could use it on any production structure. For 20 seconds, this structure could produce 2 units at the same time. (As long as both units were started before the effect wore off, the 2 units would finish.) So even if a BC took 80 seconds to build, I could Overcharge my Starport, produce 2 BCs, and they would continue until finished.
The point was to give each race a macro mechanic that requires:
1) APM
2) Focus the screen to the main base & the structures (Just as Inject and CB do)
3) Increased the efficieny of structures enough, to make it worth spending APM on it.
In BW this existed due to only one structure being selected at the time. Thus it was a skill gap in macro. And no need for macro mechanics.
@Spider mines
Ok, thanks. I don´t know how to improve them further. What are the big differences between the games? To identify specific problems?
@Hellbat/Firebat
@Hellbat
Whats the purpose of this unit btw? Mech already have vulture=good at harassing, good vs light with spidermines.
Hellbat is almost the same role in my eyes, seems a bit unneccessary. Also, a completely new unit for terran, while protoss dragoons are already nerfed
The purpose is to give Terran a way to deal with mainly mass Zerglings. (Which are even stronger now with unlimited selection.) But you are indeed right that the Hellbat will overlap with Vulture as anti-light. So it is probably a lot easier to just get the Firebat back.
@Hybrid destroyer
EDIT:
Kabel, that new model i suggested, hybrid destroyer.
Do he have any sort of attack right now? I would just love to see him in the unittester.
Oh thats right, you cant get it to work? If u get it to work, possible to add him in there?
You can open a map in the editor, place Hybrid destroyers on the field. Click on "Test document" under the File-menu.
Try its attack. If you need more instructions, tell me and I will send you some pictures.
(Remember to look at the old instructions I sent you)
@Vessels
They do indeed come into play early. I will move them up to require Fusion core, because that corresponds better to their place in the BW tech tree. But it is hard to tell how it will be with Scan. Good thing is that Scan comes into play faster. And Terran has Reapers as an extra tool for scouting in all match-ups. Can provide a lot of info.
A negative thing is that Spider mines do not hit cloaked units, which might be problematic.
@Patch
December sent me some updated Vulture & Muta micro. Xiphias will send me some even more polished worker stuff for the economy, I will have it up in maybe 1-2 hours from now
@OC
I'm suggesting a combining of the SCV and Supply Calldown, to be a Mineralcosting Ability with a cooldown. The combined Calldown spell would function like if you target Ground/Minerals when you cast the spell, it calls down an SCV, if you target a Depot, it calls down the Supply depot improvement. This way the Science Vessel does not have to come in to play so early and could be delayed in the Tech tree, to require a Fusion Core or a similar hightech building for production. Right now, the Ghost Academy only requires the Barracks, so the Vessel is REAAALLY fast, unlike the Defiler/Viper/Arbiter.
Why must the spells be combined? Why can it not be seperate spells with only a mineral cost and no energy cost?
(If it is absolutely crucial that Scan energy is only for Scan energy)
If Scan needs to be better, due to the lack of Spider mines detection, then an upgrade can be added to E-bay. INcreases energy regeneration for OB? reduces casting cost of scan?
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T uses a Scan. Looses 1 Calldown SCV. (But gains a lot of info)
P uses Rift. Looses 2 Chrono boost. (Allows P to do an early attack or save units/workers in trouble)
Z uses Creep tumor or Nurturing Swarm. Loses 1 Inject. (Boosts his defence, gives vision, connects bases, heals)
Scan is losing two calldowns.
Also rift is most likely imbalanced for protoss
You move out with five zealots, forces zerg to spend larva on units:
In broodwar, he would have killed these zealots. Now, protoss just teleports them back.
He sacraficed two chronoboost for one rift. But look at the resault=five zealots saved and forced zerg to waste larva.
Not to mention, how this could be abusible in the lategame.Four nexus=20units saved at any time (cooldown i know).
You say you want more agressive parts, well i dont know for certain but i feel with scan seperated, it could force some more agressive play from terran.
Think about it, ecobooster is very important=much less energy for scan.
How do you feel about cb used on macrounits btw? I have now not tested it in a "realgame" yet. New eco, and build and stuff. But i feel its a rather weak macro mechanic, and i choose it on nexus almost all the time.
Although, in the opening it can be very crucial probably, especially if the gameplay gets more tight(more build and strategy practiced)
"Overcharge"
It certainly sounds very powerful.
@Spider mines
Ok, thanks. I don´t know how to improve them further. What are the big differences between the games? To identify specific problems?
I believe dec noted some things about the spidermines and is working on it, or work in progress for him
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@hybrid destroyer
I pressed "test document". Didnt work at all, the map was empty.
Or maybe i didnt have vision. Couldnt do anything regardless
What do i do?
Those instruction you send me, what page are they on? They would help?
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Follow those steps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=412#8234
Terran research time:
As many of you have noted, Stim pack, Siege tech, Spider mines & Vulture speed upgrades come much faster in Sbow compared to BW, due to Tech labs. (They can be built from Barrack, then lift Factory onto them to save time.)
To get Siege tech, Spider mines & Vulture speed "correct", we should increase BT by 36 seconds. But I think Hider has some good points:
Siege tank research time increased. Don't think the entire 36 seconds is needed as there are costs related to not being able to produce out of the barrack (when you get the add-on on the barrack), and there are also some seconds spent with the lift-off thing. 25 second increase time is probably a good estimate for the "correct" value.
Stim pack in BW required Academy. It takes 80 seconds in BW to produce it. Stim pack takes 80 seconds too.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Academy
Dec has translated Stim pack BT to 90 seconds in Sbow. Which means that if Academy was in our game, it should also take 90 seconds to produce. (Can this be correct?)
If so, we should take BT of Academy MINUS the BT of Tech lab PLUS the current BT of Stim pack.
90 - 25 + 90 = 155 seconds research time in Sbow from tech lab. (To get the same timing as Stim pack in BW)
Stim pack in SC2 has 170 seconds. In BW it says "Stim pack", in SC2 "Stimpack" O_o o oo o oo
Does this sound reasonable?
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Dont know the logic now really. 25seconds increase just because barack cant make any units.
So he misses one marauder in tvp for every techlab? So?
So lift off is 1-3 seconds=33 seconds earlier.
Compensate upgrades like this doesnt include that the unit itself(the tank), comes 33 seconds earlier.
Also, it means the vulture with techlab also comes 33 seconds earlier.
And the goliath also.
Its normal for terran to go two factory+two techlab in tvp, early.
So he have two tanks or two extra vults, 36earlier here.
The thing with baracks and techlab, is while upgrading the techlab you cant produce units. While making the academy in broodwar you could still produce marines.
Upgrades comes faster here, and to make a medic you need a techlab.
Its buff to some things and nerf to some other.
Follow those steps
I tried those steps alraedy, dont work
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@More unit counters=better
I think this is just wrong. It really doesn't add much. What is actually interesting in Starcraft is HOW different units are.
Consider a typical PvZ.
P has zealot, dragoon, high templar in his roving army.
Each unit operates SOOOOOO differently its astounding. Yes there are soft counters, but the actual way these units behave is so incredibly different it creates some really nice unit control while fighting.
The same goes with Z trying to flank with lings, fire support/snipe with hydra and using lurkers.
Each unit is just so incredibly different.
This is why the stalker is receiving flak. What does it do better against than the dragoon in most scenarios? DPS vs hydra ling. What do we already have meant to fight hydra ling? Zealot templar.
Yes it is a variation of the dragoon, but does it really increase the variety in unit control? We even saw blink being more of a liability in actual open field combat against zerg.
@Stim Pack/Academy
There actually WAS an academy building. It is still in the editor. You can see it in some old alpha/beta Starcraft footage. It unlocked the medic even and stim pack.
Instead of being an academy it was a bar ahahaha.
Nuke Silo's exist. Science Facilities exist.
One gameplay thing to remind yourself is that z can speed up tech, and so can Toss to an extent (macro mechanics drive me crazy).
@Mine
already aware ^^. When I have time to work on it.
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On September 29 2013 22:22 [SC]Django wrote:
Battlecruiser:
- add JUMP upgrade (HOTS campaign) requires starport tech lab
We have this. Or had at least. I'll look inot more eco values tonight and to better testing (=longer testing...). But I am a bit busy atm so I cannot promise anything  (It's no rush since what we have now is really close to BW already, if I can get what I want, it will be just slightly better than what we have now, and probably not very noticable.)
Also, no more discussion on map sizes? I really think that is the most fundamental flaw of this game atm. BW movement speed with SC2 sized maps makes for some very weird and greedy (=boring in most cases) games. (Dirtybag's ridiculous gateway first vs zerg which can hold off 6-pools....)
I know Dec is working on adjusting speed and size values to make sure air units get's a piece of the relativity cake as well.
Also +1 to dec's post. I am always worried when we bring in more units. I really don't like marines & marauders. Nor hydra & roach. I like it when units are crisp with very noticable advantages and disadvantages and do not overlap too much at all.
Also also, no hellbat please. They will eat zealots alive in TvP if they are to be effective vs zerglings in TvZ. They will then overlap with vulture in mech play and be much more boring as well (and much more deathballish imo).
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@Arbiter, Science Vessel
I just checked them out in broodwar.
Arbiter, is hugely nerfed here in starbow, i know it was an old change. Right now, protoss units are weaker cost for cost than the other races, so they have hightech units that is more powerful than the other races.
First thing first, when the arbiter casts statis in broodwar:
If he stands still, he casts it instant. No projectile. Range nine.
When he moves however and u cast the statis, he need to stop and then cast it. He stops very slow, like two seconds in fastest gamespeed.
Just doing a stopmove for the arbiter is slow. His acceleration is very slow when he starts to move from beeing still.
The Scienve Vessel, is more instant cast. Almost 100% instant, however his acceleration is slower there. If he stands still he doesnt move in fullspeed immediately. One second or one and a half(my eyes is not 100% ofcourse) in fastest gamespeed.
If he casts while moving, he almost casts it instant. Maybe a very slight delay.
Also his radius is quite much bigger there on his emp. Maybe double
Arbiters recall: Right now can only recall 12units and costs 125mana
In broodwar: 150mana, 5x5 radius.
I tried to recall dragoons, he recalled around 18. Thats huge.
He can recall up to 25zealots or something.
His statis in bow: 125mana, can statis up to eight units
In broodwar: 100mana, statis in a 3x3 area. Can actually statis atleast eight big units
Also, no more discussion on map sizes?
I just tried the FS small version. It feels alot more fun.
Instead of being an academy it was a bar.
hahahaha
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Defilers are nerfed (can be teched to faster, it used imba with long dark swarm before, maybe not now), Arbiters are nerfed (but pop sooner).
Science vessel has only been buffed (nerve jammer).
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@FS scale map
is bugged, scv starts bot left everygame
and if someone spawns there he have his mainbuilding further away.
@dec
arbiters do not pop sooner
Defilers dont either.
OR you calculate the cb and queen now?
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@Difference between BW and Sbow
@More unit counters=better
I think this is just wrong. It really doesn't add much. What is actually interesting in Starcraft is HOW different units are.
Consider a typical PvZ.
P has zealot, dragoon, high templar in his roving army.
Each unit operates SOOOOOO differently its astounding. Yes there are soft counters, but the actual way these units behave is so incredibly different it creates some really nice unit control while fighting.
The same goes with Z trying to flank with lings, fire support/snipe with hydra and using lurkers.
Each unit is just so incredibly different.
This is why the stalker is receiving flak. What does it do better against than the dragoon in most scenarios? DPS vs hydra ling. What do we already have meant to fight hydra ling? Zealot templar.
Yes it is a variation of the dragoon, but does it really increase the variety in unit control? We even saw blink being more of a liability in actual open field combat against zerg.
...
One gameplay thing to remind yourself is that z can speed up tech, and so can Toss to an extent (macro mechanics drive me crazy).
Also +1 to dec's post. I am always worried when we bring in more units. I really don't like marines & marauders. Nor hydra & roach. I like it when units are crisp with very noticable advantages and disadvantages and do not overlap too much at all.
Ah come on. Not you two too.. : - /
Ok, lets say we remove the SC2 macro mechanics. And we remove Marauder & Stalker. Baneling & Reapers seems quite unpopular too. We keep every unit really unique. Just as in BW. So how do the races look?
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Zealot
Dragoon
HT
DT
Observer
Warp Prism
Reaver
Corsair
Scout
Sentinel
Carrier
Arbiter
Zergling
Hydralisk
Overlord/Overseer
Lurker
Scourge
Mutalisk
Viper
Defiler
Ultralisk
Guardian
Devourer
Marine
Firebat
Medic
Ghost
(Reaper?)
Vulture
Tank
Goliath
Viking
Banshee
Dropship
Vessel
BC
BW with SC2 engine. Protoss gets Warp gate? Observer with Phase shield? Zerg has.. creep spread? Maybe 1-2 new spells on the Viper? Terran can lower supply depots.. ? Where is the difference in meta game? What is it to explore in the game? It is as if we take Age of Empires 2.. and we rework it so it becomes.. Age of Empires 2.. 
SC2BW anyone?
Or just normal BW... for evah..
Also, no more discussion on map sizes? I really think that is the most fundamental flaw of this game atm. BW movement speed with SC2 sized maps makes for some very weird and greedy (=boring in most cases) games. (Dirtybag's ridiculous gateway first vs zerg which can hold off 6-pools....)
Well, the two options are to either increase all units movement speed a lot, or find new maps with the proper scale?
What would be easiest?
Please do not do it with StarBow = Broodwar is another mod for BroodWar.
StarBow has the potential but i think to add 1-2 new units and upgrades for more strategy and fun of the game.
Yes. There is absolutely no point in making Starbow be a clone of BW, with just very very small differences.
(I understand that no one here wants Starbow to be just a clone of BW. And I know you all just express your thoughts, feelings and what you like and not in the game. But when I look at the overall response I get, both in PMs, chat ingame and posts here, everything SC2 related in Sbow yields overwhelmingly negative comments. And everything BW related is very very wonderful. Which I ofc can understand, since BW is the superior game IMO. But I do not want to be limited by that. Cause if I am, no progress what so ever can ever be made.)
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Please do not do it with StarBow = Broodwar is another mod for BroodWar.
StarBow has the potential but i think to add 1-2 new units and upgrades for more strategy and fun of the game.
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Meanie, using slippery slope.
My argument was not SC2=bad.
My argument was about unit differentiation.
A baneling is quite different enough in how you'd use and micro it.
Macro mechanics are not even relavant here.
Reapers might be information denial (and generally not fun at current stats and game flow which wasn't the case in sc2).
Tweaked scout is fun.
Banshee is great!
This is not about pure BW vs SC2.
It is about core units and if the stalker really adds anything to fights or not.
Macro mechanics drive me crazy because they are hard to balance. Irreelllevant to SC2 vs BW.
edit: This is why I wanted to see a more differentiated stalker (same with Danko).
edit: Another example: Marauder.
Our main problem with sc2 marauder is that it is basically a marine (it stims, super mobile, same speed, oh but it rock paper sciccors armored targets).
This is lessened in our version by being slightly slower than a marine and not hard countering armored as hard. It's "okay" compared to something like the stalker where it behaves almost exactly like the dragoon but it rock paper sciccors differently. That, is the fundamental issue I have with it.
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Oh, Kabel, please do not misunderstand!
I like the macro mechanics. I like the add-on system. I enjoy dragoon / stalker (to some extend, needs more work though I think).
It's just a warning: DO not add too much stuff that may overlap with other stuff.
If I wanted BW I'd play BW!
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EPT
