|
@Kabel
I will try to answer all these posts, even though it would be so much easier for the game to just implemend these stuff from bw without thinking.
2) Yes, it is seven range.
4) Hydra kill darktemplar in 24hits in broodwar.
In starbow, he dies on 16.
Did not include armor reg here.
Siegetanks, dragoons, Spidermines
all do full damage to his 80shield.
I see no reason not do to this.
5) Its hard to have queens, around the entire game.
What if zerg have mass staticdefence, and plenty of goliaths attack?
25damage vs 40.
40 damage to zealot shields, quite huge thing. 40 damage to dragoons, 30 vs vultures. To goliaths.
To ultras(yeah right, like we will see ultras in zvz).
Marines with 45hp would take three hits to die here though, compared to two right now.
Is the queen fully done atm? Tweaking is potential for him, right?
Just go with the change and change it if u see somehing later on the sunken?
6) Yes, iam very sure the carriers are alot worse here. They SUCK atm.
Just to be clear here, statswise, they are the same. Its that they cant do their effective micro that makes them suck very hard.
7) For around seven years in broodwar, terran didnt use scienvessel.
Could they move out against protoss? Yes
Could they move out, and not build a turret? Yes
With spidermines, and scan it was possible to play without scienvessel.
In tvz, terran want to get this out asap for the most part.
But what do it do that he gets it 54 seconds earlier, and can start his irridiate 54 seconds earlier?
It blocks stuff from zerg here much easier.
We are talking 54 seconds here. So he can move out 54 seconds later.
I saw some agressive terran against zerg without scienvessel for a bit atleast in bw(not the entire game without it, just maybe early mid or something like that)
Upgrades should be in that fusioncore for him also.
Its a tier 3unit, dont you feel this is necessary yourself?
8) Reactor to me, you use it once in the game on that particular factory or whatnot.
Than it just sits there, so in my eyes it doesnt really provide much strategy behind it. Nobrainer would i probably call it.
But i hate the damn thing, i might be biased. No but seriously, do it really provide some sort of strategy?
@scv calldown shares with scan
I just wanna write this again.
That scv calldown shares calldown with scan. Maybe its not really a concern but in broodwar, terran didnt share the energy with something else.
Here, he needs to use scvcalldown, right? Sure save for a scan here and there but its much more inconsistent for him.
Was scan mandatory for terran in broodwar?
In broodwar, i suspect it could be critical to scan if protoss went for masscarriers. Here, carriers are much worse.
You scan techswitch from zerg? I dont know
Scan for flanks? Where the enemy is? Quite important atleast?
It provides some sort of detection, right? It makes it easier to attack without the scienvessel. More action?
@chronoboost
So its the worst ecobooster here. So is it really necessary to have it useable on cannon?
Iam guessing thats what is withholding the cb from getting a buff mostly?
@Unfair terran do not have any "speedup" like inject or chrono on buildings?
|
By the time SC2 games are at 65-70 workers, BW games tend to be around 40-45, and stuck there for a good while because that's where all heavy timings occur on 3 vs 2 bases.
Well this analysis mainly focused on 3 base timings of terrans which seems to be the most common in PvT. Basically, I believe BW TvP is balanced around this timing (most common on FS). Everything up to that point can be balanced seperately.
Please also note that I do comment on the fact that changing the econ can impact the balance in the earlier stages of the game, so its not like I am not aware that its a static model with weakness's. However, I believe any discussion of econ needs to take a close look at the TvP incentive/reward structure of 3 base vs 4base vs 5 base.
|
Could we not have CC energy for Scans and make SCV Calldown an ability of the Orbital Command and make it cost some minerals and have a long cooldown? In BW as Foxxan stated, the Terran could move out earlier if DTs/Lurkers were present mostly because of scans not having an impact on economy. Would this not be a reasonable fix?
But then just like Protoss, it removes the ability to spend the energy on either Tech/units, with Terran doing the same with Scan/econ; so I'm not sure.
Personally I like the Reactors and Techlabs. I think it gives for more Terran basemanagement which I approve of, I like having being able to switch between massing/tech units quickly instead of building a ton of the same buildings. I'm not really against it if they were removed, but it seems like a cool aspect that Sc2 managed to bring.
|
New modified econ suggestion
- Worker income = 1/1/0.65
- 7 mineral pathes instead of 8.
- 19% reduction in mining efficiency per worker.
If you click on the below graph, you can see the income rates per worker. I compared BW income, current Sbow income, Xiphias suggested eco and this econ with each other. As you can see, the current econ does a very poor job of replicating BW, though it is worth noting that income when fully saturated is similar.
![[image loading]](http://s7.postimg.org/4lz2kygl3/Unavngivet.jpg)
Xiphias income replicates BW very closely when not fully saturated, however, total income when fully saturated is way too low which I believe will have huge impact on playstyles relative to BW. If we had to implement Xiphias new income, I think it would likely would result significant balance issues (big nerf to mech). That of course can be "solved" by increasing mining efficieny with 10%, which would create some type of 1.1/0.55/0.26 econ. However, as I previously have argued, that still doesn't provide the same incentivies as in BW.
With my suggested income, we can make these conclusions;
- Over the first couple of minutes of a game, income will be a bit lower than in BW
- After the first 3 minutes or so, income will be a bit higher than in BW. This will probably mean that 5 minutes into the game, total amount of mineral harvested in the game will be similar as in BW.
- Your slightly more rewarded for taking a faster 3rd with this econ if you have enough workers. Your income won't be lower than BW-income if you take it slower, but you can gain a slight income boost in some situations. This likely won't have a noticeable effect on balance/amount of action in the game though.
- Income when fully saturated is very similar to BW income.
Does it create the correct incentive? Scenario 1: 65 workers
- It rewards 4base to 3 base income by 11% --> Same as in BW
- It rewards 5 base to 3 base income by 17% --> BW was 20%, so slighty slower. But compared to the alternatives, this is pretty good I believe.
Scenario 2: 55 workers BW econ
This may be more realistic for BW as worker macro was harder and it was more likely you also had idle workers. In Sbow I believe it is more realsitic to have more workers mining at any point in the game (macro mechanics also help), thus it is interesting to compare 55 workers in BW to 65 workers in Sbow;
4 base to 3 base income -> 11% roughly unchanged.
5 base to 3 base--> 22% --> Slightly higher reward than with 65 workers.
One thing to note though is that these calculations assume optimal saturation per base, which is unlikely in real games. Thus I actually believe the reward of taking additional bases may simply be overstated by these calculations. So in fact the "actual" reward of 5 base to 3 base may actually be less than 20%, which means that my new suggested actually replicates the BW economy quite well.
Scenario 2: 55 workers "my econ"
I think this will be a bit less typical for Sbow as I think it is likely that optimal worker count is going to be 70-75. But it may be a bit lower if players maxes out too fast and sits on too many unused ressources, so it is definitely worth testing.
4 base to 3 base income --> 18% higher.
5 base to 3 base --> 18% (unchanged)
So for a protoss player there is no extra reward for taking 5 bases relative to 4 bases if you only have 55 mining workers. Thus with this econ protoss players will be rewarded for getting a high probe count and constantly army trade. Isolated, the terran has the same incentive as in BW.
Final remarks on econ
The flaw with the SC2-econ isn't that it doesn't reward the immobile race for expanding or that there isn't assymetrical economies. When the immobile race wants to take a 4th, his main is typically starting to dry out, so he is rewarded for taking it. From my experience playing mech in Sc2, its not very often you can actually take a 4th much earlier than that anyway.
However, the real issue with Sc2 econ is actually quite the contrary --> Your too rewarded for taking a 4th base!
Bascially when the immobile race takes a 4th instead of doing a 3 base timing he becomes a lot more vulnerable to counterattacks, thus attacking becomes increasingly challenging --> More turtling --> Explains why mech is super boring in Sc2
In BW you also benefit from taking a 4th, however your opponent benefits even more from having 5 bases. And if you take the 4th, you become more vulnerable to counterattacks, which means you often times can't both expand and attack. Instead, you have to weight the benefits of doing a 3-base timing attack or simply taking a 4th and turtling behind it. In Sc2 the latter is the superior choice with mech, while in BW on a map like FS, the former is usually prefered.
Then he will push, protoss will try to delay, army trade a bit (which he can do due to 20% better econ) --> The formula for awesome games is there.
IMO the fact that we saw a lot of 3 base timings in the end of WOL wasn't really related to the economy, but simply related to the extreme lategame strenght of Zerg (aka kill him before he gets there).
|
Reactors provide a bit of build order options, indeed it is quite limited though.
But I am not convinced that it creates any balance problem that A) Can't be fixed by tweaking various stats or B) Can't be dealt with with the strenght of the new Stalker.
|
I will try to answer all these posts, even though it would be so much easier for the game to just implemend these stuff from bw without thinking.
Yes, it would be much easier. If we want BW. But everything from BW does not fit 100% into Sbow. I think it is important that we question it, and that we evaluate if it fits or not with the other stuff in the game.
@Regarding if Spine crawlers should deal 40 explosive dmg or not, as they did in BW.
>>>+ Show Spoiler +Spine crawlers in Sbow deals 25 dmg vs everything. Sunken colonies did 40 vs armored, 30 vs medium and 20 dmg vs light. But Zerg now has Queens, which both can attack and absorb damage. They can use Nurturing swarm to speed up the BT of Spine Crawlers, They can heal Spine crawlers, Lurkers, Hydras and each other. Creep gives life regeneration to all Zerg ground units. Inject makes Z able to produce defence quicker when under attack. Spine Crawlers can reposition themselfes so they are always in a useful position. They can even move between expansions if necessary! Its hard to have queens, around the entire game. Why is that hard? And if it is hard, isn't that good? A strong Zerg defence requires attention from the Zerg player. Need to focus on defence, to heal his Spine Crawlers. Just as P can focus on his defence with Chrono boost. I just think the Zerg defence is more complex in Sbow compared to BW. More factors to consider. Do we need super strong BW Spine Crawlers on top of this? Is Zerg defence too weak atm? Is the queen fully done atm? Tweaking is potential for him, right? Depends. The macro mechanics numbers surely needs to be tweaked. But I will most likely not add or remove any spells at the Queen at this point, unless there is a very good reason.
@Carrier micro
Maybe the micro can be improved. Perhaps not exactly as in BW, but still better than what we have now.
@Chrono boost
I personally like that it can be used on cannons. But it probably needs some kind of buff to better correspond with the other races macro mechanics. Unless they are nerfed. I will look into numbers when I get time.
@Vessel
Hmnn..
|
Todays patch
- Fixed economy numbers, both in normal maps and the test map. (Xiphias sent me values)
- DTs have BW values.
- Detection range on all detection units & structures are now BW values.
I still can´t get the Unit tester for the test map to work. >.<
December sent me a scaled version of Fighting Spirit. The map scale should fit better with the speed values we have for units.
I need exact values on the workers if we shall try Hiders economy in the test map.
I am soon off to work for the rest of the evening.
Xiphias values for economy: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=422#8427
|
@vessels
How is it balanced if vessels are tier2 and arbiters tier3?
Vessels are not really used against dts, its against protoss armee and arbiters
The impact the vessel have in tvp and tvz is quite huge, and its very needed against arbiter as i said in tvp.
If you want the "balance", you should make it tier3 as the arbiter.
Or else, the "balance" is not there.
Maybe the micro can be improved. Perhaps not exactly as in BW, but still better than what we have now.
Maybe it can, right now no solution is in sight.
Blizzard "fixed" carrier micro in hots, by fixed i mean they introduced it.
Not even close to the bw micro.
Why is that hard? And if it is hard, isn't that good
Iam just saying, the impact on the queen with sunken is mostly in the opening.
Later stages, the queens impact diminish>Because if zerg decides, he will have many sunkens compared to what, one queen at that place?
I dont know how i see on the sunken.
If protoss goes for zealot attack in the opening.
Its 25damage to shields and his life.
Compared to 40 to his shield, and 20vs his life.
Maybe its better if he have 25base damage. Will it cause some problems in tvz, if he goes mech?
Or is 25damage very strong against terran bio? With root, can he relie on sunkens much more here?
Especially with the 25damage versus bioterran?
The decision 25 vs 40explosive is quite huge in the long run. Dont forget to considder zerg is larva race, so good staticdefence can be very important for him.
Also note, that it seems unit movement speed is not done yet (they are somehow lower now(?)).
Also maps are bigger than they are suppoused to be.
|
@Vessel
Hmmm.. Yea you are probably right that it is important to get the Vessel on the right place in the tech tree. I don´t know why I hesitate. I can´t put my finger on it.
@Carrier
Maybe it can, right now no solution is in sight.
Blizzard "fixed" carrier micro in hots, by fixed i mean they introduced it.
Not even close to the bw micro.
Would it be possible to improve this, December?
@Sunke colony damage
Its not that I am against the BW values. I just fear it will not fit with the other Zerg defence stuff. But I can do a compromise - I add that to the Spine crawler in the test map now.
Edit: Ah crap, I need to go. I will fix this for tomorrow instead. >.<
|
@Econ
I don't think you should have updated the new "Xiphias econ". It doesn't really have a big enough effect on the 3base to 4 base incentiive, and at the same time it will screw up balance quite a lot. The immobile race is nerfed too much with this new econ, and either the income per trip should have been increased (as a compensation) or we should have maintained the old econ as a temporary solution.
To obtain my econ, I would expect that you implemented Sc2-workers and simply increased distances to mineral pathes. That would both increase 3rd worker income (relative to Sc2) and also reduce mining efficiency by 19%. By lower mining efficiency I am implying that the actual mining values are; 0.84/0.84/0.55.
To actual reduce mining efficiency, I guess one may need to either increase/reduce mineral per trap to get to the desired income or possibly make them slightly dumber (in some way) to get to the exact values.
|
The thing with sunken colonie is that the "result" will showup in the long run.
Not immediately.
Why in the longrun? Because right now the games are still very random, when the gameplay gets tight and good zergs play against good terrans, then we will see how good the sunken really is with root and 25damage vs 40explosive
Also, iam pretty sure dec have a hard time with the carrier micro.
@eco
To get it more balanced with three workers.
One possible solution is to incresae minerals per trip?
From 8 to 10?
This would cause the third worker to have more effeciency?
Btw, xiphias said yesterday he was testing some acceleration and decelleration with the workers
so it could be 1/0.5/0.4.
|
Btw, xiphias said yesterday he was testing some acceleration and decelleration with the workers
so it could be 1/0.5/0.4.
That sounds pretty cool.
This would cause the third worker to have more effeciency?
No. The ratio's will still be the same.
|
Hider go game soon?
Tvp or Pvt?
|
On September 28 2013 22:02 Foxxan wrote:
Hider go game soon?
Tvp or Pvt?
I will take a short break untill Vultures + econ gets a bit more similar to BW. It kinda tilts me at the moment. 
|
Turn around HideR!
I did a test where I got 1/0.45/0.31 We're getting close!
This is simply by changing worker acceleration from 2.5 to 2.2.
problem: Max saturation is now 1000 per base with 28 workers (which is same number of workers needed in BW to attain max saturation, so that is good!), but max saturation in BW is 1130.
I get almost EXACT BW values in term of income as well until I start to add third workers....
|
On September 28 2013 23:04 Xiphias wrote:
Turn around HideR!
I did a test where I got 1/0.45/0.31 We're getting close!
This is simply by changing worker acceleration from 2.5 to 2.2.
problem: Max saturation is now 1000 per base with 28 workers (which is same number of workers needed in BW to attain max saturation, so that is good!), but max saturation in BW is 1130.
I get almost EXACT BW values in term of income as well until I start to add third workers....
I believe in you, Xiphias!! You crazy scientist, you!
|
@Dragoon,stalker
The nerf with dragoon attackspeed has an impact in pvt.
Also, since stalker is medium, it means vulture do 10damage to his health.
Vulture vs stalker:
A vulture kills a stalker in 15 hits
A vulture kills a dragoon in 26hits
I included the armor here for both stalker and dragoon.
Stalker armor reduces it by 0.5
Dragoon armor reduces it by 0.25
Did not include shield reg.
Goliath versus stalker, according to my math its an even fight. However, with stalker +1 range and with blink, i feel the stalker win here.
Even so, goliath is actually very good against stalker.
About the marauder, is he medium or armored? He gets changed so much so iam not sure.
1) If he is armored, stalker do really low damage to him. So stalker is not "viable" if this is the case
2) If he is medium, he becomes cost effecient against dragoons. May work with dragoon kiting from terrans base back to home.
Right now, best option for protoss is to go the reaver against bio.
You remember the test me and hider did, with stim marines versus stalkers?
Very boring fight. Terran just stims and move, and move, keep moving till he is very close to the stalkers, then shoot.
Meanwhile, the stalkers they just run and run without shooting at all
I feel the stalker/dragoon wont cut it with these stats.
And nerfing dragoons speed, i feel its not very wise at all.
Also, the stalker is very untested in pvz, there is a possbility he will break that matchup atm. So why is he in the realgame like this?
As hider already said, stalker against bio and dragoon versus mech is a buildorder choice with alot of luck in it.
Doesnt actually provide gameplay, if u know what i mean?
@Size, range, mines, movementspeed
When i watched broodwar the other day, i felt the dragoon is larger in starbow. Also his range feels longer in broodwar, maybe because he is smaller there?
Units move faster, it feels like that. I am aware the camera is zoomed in there. Still, i feel the range was longer for dragoon, since its zoomed in should i not feel its shorter?
Bisu played on FS(if it was him), the map for sure looks smaller. But i guess people are aware for that already, just pointing it out.
The size of the dragoon, makes the relationship with vulture important. The smaller he is, the easier for vulture to engage dragoons. The bigger he is, the more bad he is overall
About the spidermines, they are bugged atmoment, and have been for a very long time. Anyone noted it? We reported it like1,2 weeks ago? The mines also behave a bit different in that they sometimes trigger on an enemy far from there range.
Also, corsairs aoe is bugged, sentinels sphere is bugged. Both in the aoe, and that it cant be killed once its "planted completely".
The aoe, when they hit at the same time or close to each other, they only do damage from one aoe attack.
Spidermines do not behave like in broodwar, and behaving like they do in broodwar is good.
I think they:
1) Dont plant as fast? Hard to tell since starbow is slower game
2) When they move to the surface, units do not attack them immediately. Think of hydralisks, they can actually move without detection in broodwar because they shoot the mines so fast when they plop from the ground. However, if terran plants many mines at a time, a mine will hit. Same for dragoon here, they actually can sometimes shoot the mine before it do damage.
|
Also, since stalker is medium, it means vulture do 10damage to his health.
Vulture vs stalker:
A vulture kills a stalker in 15 hits
A vulture kills a dragoon in 26hits
Good point. At the moment the whole Stalker/Dragoon thing feels quite confusing. What is really good vs what?
- Stalkers low DPS vs tanks, but tanks better vs tanks than Dragoons (taking into account costs). They can also blink on top of tanks which can increase their "effective" DPS vs tanks.
- Dragoons a bit worse vs tanks than in BW.
- Dragoons deal less damage than Stalkers vs Vultures, but can take more shots.
So Dragoons and Stalkers may work completley different in terms of HP and damage, but end-result may be the same?
I feel that this creates a bit of an unclean game.
Ultralisk model
Can we reduce this one a bit. It was much smaller in BW.
|
Couldn't replicate corsair aoe bug.
Are you suuuuuure they were bugging out?
I synched up three corsairs attacks vs 1 corsair, and the three corsairs splashed some overlords to death much quicker.
Range is 1-1 as BW right now.
If you are zoomed in, a projectile should look like it travels further across the screen.
Speed is really close to being 1-1 right now.
|
Yes iam sure
My test was versus mutas.
Same bug as mines, and sentinel sphere
I clumped up the mutas, hit with corsairs.
The mutas do not take same amount of damage.
Some take much more, some take very small
Alright: It's close to 100% 1:1.
So what about the size of the dragoon?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
