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On September 29 2013 01:48 Foxxan wrote:
Yes iam sure
My test was versus mutas.
Same bug as mines, and sentinel sphere
I clumped up the mutas, hit with corsairs.
The mutas do not take same amount of damage.
Some take much more, some take very small
Some are being directly firing upon others are not.
From the looks of how it was set up last, they deal .5 damage in a radius of 1.5 and .25 damage in a radius of 3.
The primary target is the only target to receive full damage.
I'm going to check its splash in BW real quick.
They are not bugged however.
edit: it is pretty similar to BW
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So, what do you feel about the size of the dragoon?
I just feel he should be tall, but not as fat as of now.
BTW: you know of any "unit testmap in bw" to download?
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On September 29 2013 01:58 Foxxan wrote:
So, what do you feel about the size of the dragoon?
I just feel he should be tall, but not as fat as of now.
BTW: you know of any "unit testmap in bw" to download?
Use the campaign editor ^^.
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Dont know what u mean
Dragoon compared to tank looks smaller in fatness in bw
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On September 29 2013 02:00 Foxxan wrote:
Dont know what u mean
Dragoon compared to tank looks smaller in fatness in bw
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/List_of_Unit_and_Building_Sizes
Same size
As for editor.
Start->Program Files->Starcraft->Starcraft Campaign Editor
Put whatever units you want down.
Make sure you put down a starting location for each player (under special).
Go to player settings and make sure you set enemy player to computer.
Click the flag button at the top for forces.
Drag enemy comps to a different force.
Save your map where starcraft maps are.
Test!
@spider mine
One big difference I notice with BW mine is that if you run right into a mine, it WILL explode as soon as it pops.
What is happening right now is that mines will kill other mines before they are able to explode.
In BW they would also kill friendly mines, but only ones completely unburrowed. If you dragged multiple mines, you'd only take 1 hit if a single mine wiped out 3 others. But, the blow up as soon as a unit gets right near it matters a lot. That might be key into making a sexier mine.
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@spider mine
One big difference I notice with BW mine is that if you run right into a mine, it WILL explode as soon as it pops.
What is happening right now is that mines will kill other mines before they are able to explode.
In BW they would also kill friendly mines, but only ones completely unburrowed. If you dragged multiple mines, you'd only take 1 hit if a single mine wiped out 3 others. But, the blow up as soon as a unit gets right near it matters a lot. That might be key into making a sexier mine.
What do you think about the pixel-argument? It seems that when I watch BW, its actually kinda hard to get out of spider-mine AOE as there are fewer pixels you can move your Dragoons on. This seems alot easier with Sc2 graphics (?)
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@Mines
Right now in starbow, everytime i play against mines and they "hit at the same time", they only do damage as one.
In bw, i felt it wasnt this inconsistent.
@Zerglings vs marines
Ok, i did a test in broodwar.
50 vs 25.
The zerglings kicked their ass. Amove.
The pathing is worse, but its not as major as i thought i was. Dont know why marines have 45 hp?
@the pathing
I tried to move around now a bit. Its not even close to the slowing in bw as in starbow.
When i moved around the vultures, around 12. It is as if Only 3vultures slow down for one or two sec.
Its not consistent, sometimes more slowdown, and sometimes they stop moving all together for a few sec, because one unit is blocking other units.
Compared to starbow, almost all your units slow down, and not just a few sec, but like really long
This slowing pathing is quite a huge "nerf" to units against immobile units, siegetank, reaver, storms.
@Gamespeed
Would love to speed the game up.
It moves in 1.38 realtime now?
Bw moves in 1.68.
Try 1.55 atleast? Iam a noob at this, maybe its not possible to add gamespeed initself, but you may have to adjust movementspeed and buildtimes and stuff instead?
Then its tricky. However, maybe its easier to fix the economy with higher "gamespeed"?
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OK. More eco tests and resuts.
So I added some movement stuff (I won't go into details), thanks Dec for telling where to find it.
min/min = minerals / minute (I use real minutes to compare with BW values. Both games set on fastest)
Test
# of Work. -------- min/min ------------- BW compare
8 -------------------- 564 ------------------ 550
12 ------------------- 700 --------------------700
16 ------------------- 848 --------------------808
20 ------------------- 950 --------------------980
24 ------------------- 1000 ------------------1060
28 ------------------- 1050-------------------1130
32 ------------------- 1056-------------------1130
It seems it maxed at 24 and that the 50 extra might just be error in measuring.
This is getting close. Again the problem is increasing the max saturation. Since the max saturation is worse but the first 8 give more, the worker efficiency is skewed to 1/0.5/0.27. Even if this is "worse" than my last result, I personally think it's better because all the values throughout are closer towards the BW values.
Kabel if you want this, then PM me. This one is a tad more tricky than just adjusting return delay.
Also, even though this is not 100% BW (but almost 85 % imo, maybe more) it might be want we want.
Also also... In order to achieve this result the way workers move have been changed quite significant. We might not want them even stupider. Right now they rotate before they move and it might look a bit silly for some. But it's pretty close to how the BW workers behaved. I could make them look even more stupid and maybe get closer, but we ant workers to be able to do other stuff than mining....
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Tested scaled maps. Feels sooo much better (looks sooo much worse, but whatever... !
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@Vulture vs stalker
I think vultures are costeffective actually.
Two vultures for every stalker was my test.
They do not deal full damage to shield, only 15.
Still, they win with amove against the stalker.
Tried around eight stalkers versus 16vults. Vultures won easy. (No micro involved)
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Smart firing with vultures is functional in my current mod file. So when kabel uploads it except it. Only problem is attack clicking single units will still shoot randomly. You'll need to just right click the target you want to target fire and of course make sure the unit is it range. Clicking a unit out of range just issues an attack move command.
On to mutalisk micro!!!
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On September 29 2013 07:57 Foxxan wrote:
@Vulture vs stalker
I think vultures are costeffective actually.
Two vultures for every stalker was my test.
They do not deal full damage to shield, only 15.
Still, they win with amove against the stalker.
Tried around eight stalkers versus 16vults. Vultures won easy. (No micro involved)
They are also cost-effective vs Dragoons (I tested it). Thus, I actually believe that something like a mutilple reactor opening vs protoss on 2 bases, could potentially be imbalanced (esp once Vulture "micro" gets fixed"). In BW, terran couldn't produce vultures at the same speed as you potentially can in Sbow (due to reactors).
It is important to note though that Vultures scale worse than Dragoons/stalkers due to their lower range so any type of "vulture-only" build must come quite early in the game.
@ Economy
I don't think it is particularly important that income per worker is similar to BW for any amount of workers mining. IMO we need to look at the more important timings in BW and try to assess what would happen with a different economy. Terran in TvZ stayed a long time on 2 bases and if total mining is reduced, then that matchup will change totally. Same thing with TvP, so IMO full sataration income is by far the most important metric.
The second most important metric is to replicate the BW incentive/reward of 3base to 4base (+10%) to 5base (a further 10% relative to 4base) income.
As long as thee two metric's aren't fulfilled, then the econ will create the same type of gameplay as in Sc2 I believe (turtling).
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@Regarding Stalker & Dragoon & Hard counters
I try to avoid hard counters. If Unit A beats Unit B beats Unit C, we get rock-scissor-paper.
But an important part of Starcraft is that some units are better vs different types of units.
It all comes down to HOW much better/cost efficient units are suppose to be vs each other.
An example: Marines are more cost efficient vs Hydras. But Hydras are not worthless vs Marines, and can still do an ok fight. Especially with some micro, like focus fire, retreat wounded units etc.
This is the approach I try to have with the Dragoon/Stalker. (I talk about TvP now)
Dragoons are more cost efficient vs Tank, Marauder.
Stalkers are more cost efficient vs Reaper, Marine, SCV, Banshee.
This does not mean that Stalkers are suppose to be hard countered by Marauders. (Marauder barely wins.)
Or that Dragoons are suppose to be super worthless vs Banshees, or anything like that.
Instead should some kind of mix of units be more encouraged, to improve the overall strength of the army. This is because the more different kinds of units needed in a battle = the more micro required = more fun. Especially in the SC2 engine.
@Respons to some quoutes regarding Stalker/Dragoon
>>>+ Show Spoiler +
@Vulture vs stalker
I think vultures are costeffective actually.
Two vultures for every stalker was my test.
They do not deal full damage to shield, only 15.
Still, they win with amove against the stalker.
Tried around eight stalkers versus 16vults. Vultures won easy. (No micro involved)
Yes, 1 Stalker is now as strong as 2 Vultures. Same total cost. It is very even. I made it like that on purpose. Especially since Stalkers get a micro edge with Blink later on. (And we still do not know how good that is vs Siege lines.) Keep in mind that in a real game it is often more complex. The damage output from for example 3 Dragoons + 2 Stalkers vs a couple of Vultures & Banshees will be higher, compared if it was only Dragoons. If we look at it in an isolated context: 1 Dragoon kills 1 Vulture in 12 seconds. 1 Stalker kills 1 Vulture in 9 seconds. (Stalkers are also cheaper and more mobile than Dragoons) But Stalkers are also more fragile vs Vultures than Dragoons are. Which means that only mass Stalkers is not optimal either. Hence, a mix of those units is encouraged. But maybe it turns out to be different in "reality." If the meta game will be mass Goons vs T, then ok, maybe that is the way it will be. BW meta game is still suppose to be quite possible. But so are new variations too. I only try to open up room for diverse playstyles. Only give potential use for the Stalker. I can not detail force it too much. (Or maybe I can? :B :B :B)
Goliath versus stalker, according to my math its an even fight. However, with stalker +1 range and with blink, i feel the stalker win here.
Even so, goliath is actually very good against stalker.
Yes. Same cost. Stalker is the much more mobile unit. Generally in Starcraft, faster units are beaten by slower units. Does not this seem reasonable? You remember the test me and hider did, with stim marines versus stalkers?
Very boring fight. Terran just stims and move, and move, keep moving till he is very close to the stalkers, then shoot.
Meanwhile, the stalkers they just run and run without shooting at all If there are ways to improve these kind of combats, I am very willing to try them. And nerfing dragoons speed, i feel its not very wise at all. Dragoon speed is the same as it has always been since it got implemented into Starbow a couple of weeks ago. Also, the stalker is very untested in pvz, there is a possbility he will break that matchup atm. So why is he in the realgame like this? Everything that differs from the BW meta game has potential to break match-ups. That is why we need to try it. I try new concepts or radical things in the test map. This version of the Stalker, with medium armor and 100/50 cost, has been in the game for ca 2 weeks. The last patch, 2 days ago, increased the Stalker DPS by 12,5%. (And Dragoon DPS got lowered by 12,5%.) It might ofc be balance problems anyway. The Stalker is not suppose to be able to fight straight on vs Hydras and Ling. Neither are Dragoons as in BW. Instead the Stalker just offers an alternative fire-support unit to the Dragoon. But Zealots should still be required as a "wall" in front. As hider already said, stalker against bio and dragoon versus mech is a buildorder choice with alot of luck in it.
Doesnt actually provide gameplay, if u know what i mean? If this is the case, then ofc something is very wrong. But is it really this way?
@Economy
But if we manage to get quite close to BW economy, then we get the two metrics you mention, Hider? Or why would they be "lost" if we find a good replica of BW economy in Sbow?
@How can we balance new stuff in Sbow?
A while ago, I played with a new person. He was quite good but had never played BW. He got upset that his Hydras got beaten so hard by Zealots. (We had BW stats on those units.) He claimed it was obvious it was a very broken and imbalanced unit relationship. How cóuld I "prove" to him that it was not? How could I claim that it "should" be like that?
The only point of reference we have is BW. This is due to 10+ years of pro-gamers devoting their lifes to exploring the game. So I pointed on that. Just as we all point to that all the time. It is the best evidence we have of good balance.
This also means that everything that is NOT BW will be problematic. Every new aspect of the game is thrown out into a dark unexplored wilderness where we have no answears. There are incredible many factors in the game. How can we ever know if we have good balance or not?
We can not know. We can only make a prediction based on the relative few games we play. We can try to evaluate it and see if it makes sense. And make sure it is fun.
Imagine if BW did not exist.
Instead was it released today as an indie game, developed by a small group of people. The exact BW.
People started to play it.
I think we all would see enormous balance problems in it. And design flaws. And be angry because of gimmicky stuff.
Oh well, just some random thoughts.
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@Regarding macro mechanics
I will do a calculation now on how to get the worker production decent even between the races, with Chrono boost, Inject and Calldown SCV as a part of it.
@Reactor
If we want to keep it, I think there are two ways to balance it:
1) Increase the build time of Marine, Marauder, Reaper, Vulture, Viking, and maybe Dropship, since they can be reactored. (Which gives a strong early game advantage for T, in relation to the BW balance.) Is it possible to find a mathematical way to increase the units BT by the "correct" number?
2) Change the way Reactors work to maintain a mathematical balance. A suggestion:
A reactor increases the production speed by ca 30%. (NOT 2 units produced at the same time.)
Why just ca 30%?
Cost of Terran production factories:
Barrack 150
Factory 200/100
Starport 150/100
Reactor 50/50
A Reactor costs ca 30% of the average cost of a T production building. (Please correct me if I have misscalculated.)
Example:
Each Factory for 200/100 increases production of Vultures by 100%.
Hence, Reactor for 50/50 increases production of Vultures by ca 30%
Does this logic make sense?
@Marauder with flame splash
As many of you have already pointed out, it is flawed that Marauders can switch between anti-armored and anti-light splash. They are kinda good vs everything. The most easy solution is to bring back either Firebat or Hellbat.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F22d5Tf.jpg)
Advantages with Hellbat:
- Sexy model
- One more unit at Factory (5 Units at Barrack, 4 units at Factory, 5 units at Starport)
- More combinations of Bio + Mech, since Medics can heal them?
- More useful in all match-ups, compared to Firebats?
Ofc they do not need to have SC2 stats.
Disadvantages with Hellbat:
- Messes too much with balance?
- Makes pure mech play superior?
- No Hellion mode makes the unit feel "half"? (Is even transformation used in HoTS?)
- You are gonna strangle me?
Advantages with Firebat
- BW foar life!1!!
- Fits better in the BW balance
- Feels more "natural"
Disadvantages with Firebat:
- Ugly model >.<
- Only useful in TvZ? (Unless stats are changed)
- Very uneven number of units in Terran production facilities? (6 at Barrack, 3 at Factory, 5 at Starport)
Ah, I just found out how to make polls! (Wasn't that hard ) I am the dictator anyway and can choose what I desire! ! A ahahah ahh
But I am a gentle dictator who listens to my people ^^
Poll: Firebat or Hellbat??Firebat ffs! (6) 50% Hellbat yolo! (5) 42% Neither. -_- (1) 8% 12 total votes Your vote: Firebat or Hellbat?? (Vote): Firebat ffs!
(Vote): Hellbat yolo!
(Vote): Neither. -_-
But then again we would have to figure out the stats again for the barracks units.
Why? We just need to figure out the stats for the Bat?
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so terran barracks has got in the end:
Marine
Firebat
Marauder
Ghost
Medic
Reaper
Some point out that these are too many units. but in fact it only has 1 more than the gateway:
Zealot
Dragoon
Stalker
HT
DT
But then again we would have to figure out the stats again for the barracks units.
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@Bat I vote for the Firebat! Being able to go Full-bio is something I want, and I feel that the Hellbat would cause some instability in say TvP Mech, Hellbat would melt Zealots I think and it would be hard to balance.
@Reactor I like the Reactor speed increase and 30% seems reasonable, despite it being quite low if you're planting a 50/50 Reactor on the 150min Barracks for a 30% increase I still feel like it's ok.
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As for me Starbow need, for example:
Terran:
add Hellbat
- add Blue Flame upgrade requires factory tech lab
Battlecruiser:
- add JUMP upgrade (HOTS campaign) requires starport tech lab
Engineering bay:
- add upgrade's: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking, Building Armor and Neosteel Frame.
Protoss:
add Immortal
- Remove Stalker or Dragon
Zerg:
add Roches
StarBow is a fun game, but I think that more units are more strategy and fun of the game.
Everything can be balance ...
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@reactor
I kinda like the 30% increase in speed.
But if terran gets this, other races need something like this also.
@Goon vs vulture
The test was with goons having 2 attackspeed. Even with the nerf to dragoon, they are better against vults than stalker
I still think goons are costeffective against vultures in broodwar.
Also, micro matters more for dragoons than stalkers, atleast i think so, since stalkers die very fast
They are also cost-effective vs Dragoons (I tested it)
No, i dont think they aint. I still did two vultures for every dragoon in this test. Its not 100%, but goons are nerfed.
Still, the more dragoons u have, the more effective they become. Still dragoons win 1v2, 2v4, 3v6.
So i scaled it up, to 10 vs 20, they still win.
I scaled up more, 18 vs 36, they still win.
I scaled up the stalkers, 18 vs 36, they lose quite hard.
Conclusion is, stalker is actually bad versus vultures, while dragoons should be cost effective against them. And as i said before, with micro they become even more costeffective compared to stalker which die so fast
Will do some testing in broodwar vult vs dragoon:
Ok, so 2,25 vult for every dragoon.
A-move the vults win in broodwar by quite a big margin.
It was 8dragoons vs 19vults.
Ok, will try to do a more big battle, to see if dragoon become more effective
@Firebat, or hellbat
Well i would say firebat even though the hellbat is cool. I dont know the stats of this unit now(?). Its likely its very good against zealots?
Anyway, the firebat from barack is crucial for terran early agressive against zerg. Also, if bio somehow gets available against protoss, isnt the firebat used there something?
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EPT
