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State of Starbow
These are IMO the remaining stuff to take care off:
- long list of bugs
- improve the descriptions on many of the buttons
- improve the visuals on some effects/spells/units
- adjust some of the spells (Shock, Breed, Null ward, Safeguard for example might need a rework/rebalance)
- make sure the match-ups feel fun
- find a decent balance between all races
- swap the map pool
Very generalised overview:
- ZvT seems ok.
- PvZ seems decent, apart from some balance problems. (2Gate pressure impossible to stop? Zerg tech switches between Lurker/Muta too hard to keep up with?)
- Mirror matches look ok. Seems to be room for some variation. (Not always Muta vs Muta in ZvZ for example)
The remaining large match-up problem is PvT.
Why?
Cause I try to keep the BW feeling, where Mech is able to take area control. long siege lines, mine fields etc.
While at the same time I want to open up a bit more room for Bio play.
And more room for earlier air play from both races - Banshee & Sentinel.
And Warp gate and Blink are in the game. (Which IMO seems to work decent in PvZ and PvP.)
I will upload a new small patch with bug fixes. It would be cool if we can continue to explore PvT tonight. See how it feels with the "new" Immortal & Marauder, and the slight rebalance I did with the last patch. Try to identify problems. Try to identify what makes the match-up feel off, and evaluate how it can be improved/adjusted.
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Only problem is that this weakness is hard to really abuse, since its not defensively orientated. How does the fact that Marauders might use the wrong weapon against you help you kill them? It doesn't - it just makes them kill you slower.
The lowered range on the other hand is a much more valid weakness, as this allows you to get a naturally larger concave against them, kite them and make them clump up more when attacking positional units such as Lurkers.
Also be aware that the more extreme weaknesses we give the Marauder, the more extreme strengths we can give it as well. Testing will show what is the best version of this dual unit.
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Atm I will continue to use the switch activation button on the Marauder.
1.) It needs more testing in matches to see how it currently feels.
2.) It took me over 6 hours of work in the editor to get it to function properly 
But as usual, if it sucks hard, then I might go for Jays suggestion. And if it turns out that the Marauder switch idea overall sucks, then we need to find another solution.
Many "Ifs" here.
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@Regarding Absorb on Immortal
Is it just me who kinda feels this ability is bullshit?
(I made it like this, so I am not ranting on any of you)
When activated, the Immortal gets surrounded by a shield that reduces damage from projectiles and explosions by 50%.
Lasts 7 seconds. Cooldown 60 seconds. Requires no upgrade.
Positive things:
- It makes the Immortal live up to its name - something that adds to the defence, survability.
- It gives a tiny bit micro to do in combats. Since it lasts so short you can just not spam it, and if players are quick, they can actually save one of their precious Immortals.
Negative things:
- It goes against the concept of support units needed to protect the army units. Just as if Zerg had a unit that could activate Dark swarm on itself...
- It lasts long enough so in certain situations can you just activate it, engange, combat is over.
- It can move into a mine field and soak up quite a lot of Mines and Tank shots.
- What is a projectile? What counts as an explosion? Exactly vs what units does it work?
- Is this supposed to be a tanky unit or a damage dealing unit?? >.<
What I consider to do:
- Make it reduce all dmg from all attacks. Simple and clean. No confusion. Lasts 2-3 seconds. So it becomes even more crucial to use it at the exact right spot. (But still not strong enough to dictate a combat)
- Just remove it. Let the Immortal be a decent speed tough long ranged slow attacking heavy damage unit. Kinda like the Dragoon.. And just go from there...
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"- PvZ seems decent, apart from some balance problems. (2Gate pressure impossible to stop? Zerg tech switches between Lurker/Muta too hard to keep up with?)
- Mirror matches look ok. Seems to be room for some variation. (Not always Muta vs Muta in ZvZ for example)"
(too lazy to quote...)
I think the meta-game will take care of this one tbh. Let players invent and innovate.
I did not get my sound card today as promised  but I might do some casting with what I've got (I sound like I'm far away...)
I'll be able to do some casting on Friday I think, and the sound card should REALLY be here then....
I have an idea to make "Squares of Starbow" better and maybe playable again. I'll work on it tonight I think and send Kabel a suggestion. Probably post in the map forum as well.
I really want to organize a tournament once Sbow is "finished" and we are getting close! I want a prize pool as well so people take it somewhat seriously. Any ideas to raise fonds? (I could speedrun Braid....)
- Xiphias out!
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@ immortal: I'd just remove it honnestly, it makes the immortal ridiculously strong in the earlygame vs the right units. Lategame it doesn't have a place anymore, because they still can't tank vs siegelines and are supposed to be the damage dealers, so you still want to tank with zealots, making this ability kinda useless. And like you said, it's just one click that you can do each 60 mins, doesn't add much.
@ tourney: i probably wont be able to join if it's soon , exams.
edit: yeah only absorb
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I suggested in the past that the immortal had an ability that made it so it could only take shield damage once per second. Granted it would still be weak vs siege tanks but it would be much stronger vs lots of siege tanks. But you wanna be sure that only one immortal takes damage at once. Not sure if this could work.
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Do you mean remove immortal or absorb?
OK, let's make a poll, because.... POLL!!!
Poll: Best time to host a tournamnetLater (3) 43% Beginning of September (2) 29% End of September (1) 14% Beginning / mid October (1) 14% 7 total votes Your vote: Best time to host a tournamnet (Vote): Beginning of September
(Vote): End of September
(Vote): Beginning / mid October
(Vote): Later
This poll assumes that Sbow is "done" at the given time.
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somewhere between 9 and 13 september would work for me, else late september or october.
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Tournament sounds fun to kick off Starbow, once I finally start to "advertise."
But the game must reach a much better state first.
Still work to do.
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I think the immortal designed as a counter to siege tanks is an inferior way to build it. I'd much rather have a dragoon like immortal (cybernetics/gate tech?), a fragile harassment sort of stalker (maybe twilight tech), and a the classic zealot.
Zealots already tank siege tanks, the reason the original immortal was so unloved was because it was a hard counter.
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On August 15 2013 06:35 decemberscalm wrote:
I think the immortal designed as a counter to siege tanks is an inferior way to build it. I'd much rather have a dragoon like immortal (cybernetics/gate tech?), a fragile harassment sort of stalker (maybe twilight tech), and a the classic zealot.
Zealots already tank siege tanks, the reason the original immortal was so unloved was because it was a hard counter.
Yup, sounds about what I'd go for. Although I don't mind the Immortal being a bit tougher for less range.
Designing around countering specific units is just inferior design in general.
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I can´t put the Stalker on anything else than Cybernetics core tech. If P does not have acess to early anti air - quick Banshee, Sentinel or even quick Mutas will be very hard to deal with. It kinda "forces" P up the anti-air tech, either Stargate or Twilight council. So in that regard I think the Immortal can stay on the Robotic facility, since it is its "natural home" from SC2.
I don´t think the Immortal shall be a hard counter vs Tanks. I just think it shall be a more robust, stonger but slightly slower back bone in the army, compared to the Stalker. But each unit shall have its useage.
TvP:
- Zealots for tanking/meat shield
- Stalker for picking off Vultures and anti-air. Maybe do some Blink sacrifices vs Tanks. (Make sure its not too strong to just suicide everything into the Tank line)
- Immortal for the Dragoonesque back line fire support. With speed 2.75 and the range upgrade, it seems to be able to fill that role decently well. (But it still needs to be more explored.) It seems to do decent damage mainly vs Tanks, Goliaths and Marauders, but it still dies if it walks into Tank lines without Zealots in front of them. (Or Safeguard)
- A Protoss army that goes for Zealot + Immortal as base army composition will be vulnerable vs Banshees, Vessels and mass Mines being planted around the army. (Which happend to me today vs Dirtybag. I could not kill the mines in time)
- A Protoss army that goes for Zealot + Stalker as base army composition will not have the same damage output.
- A Protoss army that goes for Stalker + Immortal as base army composition will be... weird? They will have good damage output, but should not be able to engage into Terran positions.
Ofc it is not as simple like that. "This game I go for unit A and B!" P can throw in tech units for combinations, a lot depends on the game state and different situations. As the game progresses, Stalkers get the ability to "break out" of the army due to Blink + Warp in.
In ZvP we might see this:
- Zealots to fend off Zerglings, be meatshield, deal damage.
- Stalkers as anti-air, back line fire support since they are quite stong vs most Zerg mid game units (Hydras, Mutalisks) As long as they are protected and Hydras & Zerglings do not come close to them.
- Immortals vs mainly Lurkers and Ultralisks, since neither Zealot or Stalkers are good vs them. (Or just micro Reavers like a god. Archons work too, but atm Immortals are more cost efficient vs single target larger targets, while Archons are better vs clumped up stuff like Hydras/Zerglings/Mutas. Massing Immortals will probably not be common. But having a couple of them might be useful.)
And PvP:
- Zealots > Immortals > Stalkers > Zealots and air (unless Zealots have the speed upgrade)
Stalkers will be beaten 1v1 vs an Immortal. But it is possible to micro ranged Stalkers vs Immortals without taking any damage. (It is hard but it works.) Unless Immortals upgrade their own range bonus. And all units have their own advantages in other ways, apart from combat, - Zealots faster and can be Warped in, Stalker Blink and so on..
Atm the Absorb ability lasts 3 seconds, makes the Immortal take 0 damage from any attack. Cooldown 60 seconds. It is not that necessary. I just hold on to it since it is the Immortal. And I want it to have some kind of shield speciality .. just because it feels good..? The Immortal can not move into mine fields or Tanks atm. The only thing it can do is survive some crucial shots, like if P is quick he can avoid 1-2 mines from detonating, or fend off a Reaver shot etc. But the main purpose of the Immortal should IMO be similar to the Dragoon - a stronger back line damage dealing unit.
Anyway, Sentinels seems strong vs Terran early in a boring way. (Not only based on the games played today. But some games the last time seems to indicate that.) T has to pump Marines, but they are still not really that good vs them. Or just turtle with Turrets. Or tech to Goliaths/Viking. It is not impossible. It just feels like it is easy to "contain" Terran by massing Sentinels - 4-6 can do quite good damage and T can not move out unitl he has enough Goliaths to defend home and to move out. Not sure how to approach this.
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I was thinking immortal being able to shoot up ^^.
But I am very excited to see how the immortal you are crafting will end up.
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Immortals being unable to shoot up is actually a good change from Dragoons as it allows more strategic depth to Protoss.
Ground or Air only attacks are in the category I called "Special attributes": It makes the unit worse (less interesting) while usually making the race itself better (more diverse).
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@Sentinels
Ok ok , since P has acess to a unit that can attack T early, unlike in BW, T needs a proper way to defend vs it.
Potential solutions:
- Make Marines even better vs Sentinels. (Not that I buff the Marine stats, I just make Sentinels worse vs Marines)
- Make Sentinels come later in the game (For example slightly more expensive and longer build time)
- Goliaths come earlier in the tech tree. (They require Tech lab OR Armory. So it is possible to get out a few from the tech lab. If you wanna mass them from reactors, build an Armory... Or just make them NOT require Armory at all >.<)
- Turrets require no Engineering bay, or a cheaper Engineering Bay, or are just cheaper. (Will still not allow T to move out)
- Make Vikings own them. (Which they already do. They just come later in the tech tree, compared to Sentinels.)
And I need to take a look at Null wards.
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@A gameplay problem in PvT?
What prevents P from massing Blink Stalkers all game long? As soon as T tries to push or moves out, the Blink Stalkers can easily get inside the third base and deny it. The threat of having the Protoss main army inside Terrans third base will force T to stay very very defensively. (Only having 3-5 Tanks for defence might even not be enough.)
This was a major problem a while ago when Stalkers were much stronger. They are now not good vs armored anymore, and more fragile. But we still sometimes see this kind of mexican stand-off scenario happen: T can not really push out, P can not really move in. As soon as the other player does something, the other race can capitalize on it.
In the picture below:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nHGnovw.jpg)
In PvZ, that can not really happen in the same way vs Lurkes, because the closer they are the more damage do they get. And Lurkers > Stalkers & Zealots.
Tanks also > Stalkers, but not if the Stalkers are on top of the Tanks.
Ways to overcome it:
- Spider mines much much better again.
- Sieged Tanks need to 2-shot Stalkers. (Which they now do with +2 weapon upgrade)
- Blink worse cooldown. (Easy to get in, hard to get out if P screws up)
- Blink does not happen instantly? There is a 1-2 second delay before the Stalker is "Blinked in" on the location?
(Kinda like how Rift/Teleport works) Gives room for Spider mines & Tanks to mess with them before they can shoot back.
- Marauders even better vs Stalkers, so it is more dangeoues to just mass Stalkers??
- Find better relationsships so even an unsieged mech army will > mass Stalkers. (Which forces P to get other units too)
- Remove Stalker & Immortal and give back the Dragoon. (I know you want this SolidSMD)
- Just let the meta game solve it?
What is a "fun" way of assaulting a base like the one above?
- I find it more interesting if races need to use a couple of different unit types to breach a base. It shall be hard to just win with a blob of the same type of units - Mass Blink > Base dead.
Compared to BW, the "fun" challenge lied in dropping Zealots with the Shuttle, maybe use Storm or Reaver, tear down the supply depot who blocked the ramps, etc. A lot of small things needed to work together.
If P needs to use Sentinel with Safeguard, Warp prism Drop, Zealots, maybe Reaver/Storm, Corsairs with Graviton beam, and maybe some Blink Stalkers too, then it might feel more fun.
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Well, to break position like this p would need like... 20 stalkers? is that really problem if. p wants to commit so hard?
Honestly, when I asked about immortal swap to gateway I thought about immortal with GtA. Maybe short attack range would be better solution than no GtA. 4 range base + 1 from upgrade (+stalker with 6 range on TC with 3.25 speed or someting like that). You can also give alternative gta attack for immo with shorter range or something.
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For the matchup TvP!
Things i would like to see right now:
Dragoon replacing stalker, immortal:
I believe this will add gameplay in tvp, siegetanks cant just amove against them,
in siegemode 3hits to kill a dragoon (equal upgrades), this is only one example
Spidermine damage buff:
For more tactical gameplay
Things i would like to look at:
The zealot, a small buff to him
1) increase his passive moment speed even further(cut charge)
2) Redesign charge abit, reduce calldown hard. But nerf the speed it gives
This may cause problems with the powerful archon (since no full damage vs shields anymore)
What i liked about broodwar was that to defend, you couldnt just amove the correct amount of units(you needed micro to)
And to attack, same thing there. Not just amove without micro
For example: Terran drops 2siegetanks and 4vultures and lay the mines, amoving as defence now can be cost ineffecient, instead:
1) Protoss clears the mines before he moves close to the tanks, or he send in zealots after the minefields are taken out
2) He can drag the mines with 3 zealots, and than either move in with the rest of his zealots or use his dragoons if he have those instead
3) He have a shuttle ready to drop ontop of the siegetanks and dragoons to do some added firework
All these defencing techniques the protoss can use as offense to.
This is what made broodwar fun, you never knew how u were gonna approach it (improvisation)
Even with only 2units it added so much because they could use so many roles and be very active all over the map at all time
It isnt variation that adds gameplay, its how you can use the units that adds gameplay.
Doing the easy way right now can be cost effecient for the future, it gives you a better picture how the matchups work, and the balance would be easier to see
And from there, maybe add a unit or buff/nerf something(for the future)
The tvp matchup already adds stuff broodwar didnt have:
the sentinel - can be used early, middle, late - i feel this one is really powerful in the right hands
Warp gate - Big buff to protoss
Just a fun note: i truly believe protoss > terran hardcore hard atm, take this with a grain of salt
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EPT
