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Things i would like to see right now:
Dragoon replacing stalker, immortal:
I believe this will add gameplay in tvp, siegetanks cant just amove against them,
in siegemode 3hits to kill a dragoon (equal upgrades), this is only one example
This is the relationship we have now with Tanks & Immortals. Isn´t that good?
Spidermine damage buff:
For more tactical gameplay '
It might be needed yes.
Things i would like to look at:
The zealot, a small buff to him
1) increase his passive moment speed even further(cut charge)
2) Redesign charge abit, reduce calldown hard. But nerf the speed it gives
I had Charge with short cooldown and short affect. It was not popular. It felt spammy and dumb. I think it had 10 second cooldown and it lasted 2 seconds.
What i liked about broodwar was that to defend, you couldnt just amove the correct amount of units(you needed micro to)
And to attack, same thing there. Not just amove without micro
But this is why I have the pathing system. It is much worse to just A-move into enemy armies now, because armies move in straight lines and not in blobs. Units require more micro in combat. Flanking is better. Army position etc. If Z sends 50 Zerglings to defend vs 7 Marines + 1 Medic behind the mineral line, the Zerglings will run in a line, one at a time vs the Marines and die, and Z will lose a lot more Zerglings if he does not micro them. Compared it to the SC2 system where they move in a flock and can easily auto-surround the Mariens.
Why do you want me to remove the pathing system, and bring back the SC2 system?
For example: Terran drops 2siegetanks and 4vultures and lay the mines, amoving as defence now can be cost ineffecient, instead:
1) Protoss clears the mines before he moves close to the tanks, or he send in zealots after the minefields are taken out
2) He can drag the mines with 3 zealots, and than either move in with the rest of his zealots or use his dragoons if he have those instead
3) He have a shuttle ready to drop ontop of the siegetanks and dragoons to do some added firework
All these defencing techniques the protoss can use as offense to.
This is what made broodwar fun, you never knew how u were gonna approach it (improvisation)
I agree. I try to make units benefit as much as possible from micro.
But we have to consider the SC2 engine - the unlimited selection, the unit clumping (that is still there despite the pathing system) and so on. If you drop me with 4 Tanks & 4 Vultures, plant mines, I can just click F2 and select my whole army to clean that up. It is so easy. Especially if no other fight happens on the map at the same time.
In BW, the bigger the enemy drop was, the harder it was for me to clean it up, since I needed to control many more units for defence.
That is not harder in SC2. Unless more different types of units are needed, who together require micro and can not just A-move.
But if drops/harassment shall be efficient in Starbow, they must happen at many locations at the same time. This prevents the enemy player from just moving around with his whole army in a clump and defend one location at the same time. It is also important that maps have bases who are spread apart, so one blob can not defend all bases.
Even with only 2units it added so much because they could use so many roles and be very active all over the map at all time
It isnt variation that adds gameplay, its how you can use the units that adds gameplay.
Yes, I agree. Less is more. It is possible to do much stuff with easy and few units. This is why I try to make units who are usable, feels good to micro, have potential to become stronger when microed, and can be used in many situations. This is why I jammed the Firebat + Marauder, this is why I have low attack speed and good range on the Immortal - each shot becomes more important, this is why Spider mines explode in a larger area to punish players who just A-move, and so on.
Just a fun note: i truly believe protoss > terran hardcore hard atm, take this with a grain of salt
I fear the same thing.
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This is the relationship we have now with Tanks & Immortals. Isn´t that good?
I dont know. Is it?
Feels like stalker 2.0 without blink,
you sure protoss doesnt want to just cut stalker when he can at all cost?
Zealots, archons, immortals
what u need stalkers for?
Early game versus vultures, what else? antiair? Archons cover probably
Clearing spidermines? SInce they shoot faster but immortal clears one spiderman each hit he do
Since he needs stalkers early versus vultures, cant terran exploit this?
so many questions, do you like the immortal?
I had Charge with short cooldown and short affect. It was not popular. It felt spammy and dumb. I think it had 10 second cooldown and it lasted 2 seconds.
spammy? in what way i dont understand, blink is spammy to?
But this is why I have the pathing system. It is much worse to just A-move into enemy armies now, because armies move in straight lines and not in blobs. Units require more micro in combat. Flanking is better. Army position etc. And you want me to remove the system, and bring back the SC2 system?
Iam not talking about the ai or unit pathing iam talking about thetools each race has that the opponent needs to micro against (lurker, siegetank, spidermines)etc, this is what adds gameplay, you can still amove but it becomes cost ineffecient
Compare to starcraft 2, you can amove and be cost effecient. Because u do not have units like these
and while we are at it, yes i would actually like the sc2 system instead of this one
Would make the micro more fun and smooth.
You would still want to flank, spread your units (even if its much harder) and micro in battles. It would be nowhere where sc2 stands now
If you drop me with 4 Tanks & 4 Vultures, plant mines, I can just click F2 and select my whole army to clean that up. It is so easy
Yes ofcourse you can, thank god the a.i doesnt block the ramp, the a.i doesnt make it shit annoying for you to move to your destination (it could be like this in broodwar)
Maybe this addition of sc2 is good, but still this is what i meant, you can still amove but it will become cost ineffecient for you. Take a look at broodwar but protend the ai is much smoother, you would still not wanna just amove your armies around
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I dont know. Is it?
Feels like stalker 2.0 without blink,
you sure protoss doesnt want to just cut stalker when he can at all cost?
Zealots, archons, immortals
what u need stalkers for?
Early game versus vultures, what else? antiair? Archons cover probably
Clearing spidermines? SInce they shoot faster but immortal clears one spiderman each hit he do
Since he needs stalkers early versus vultures, cant terran exploit this?
so many questions, do you like the immortal?
I need to see more games with it. So we can get a feeling for if it is a useful unit at all.
spammy? in what way i dont understand, blink is spammy to?
I think the main criticism from the players was that it was braindead. Just click it. Blink has a decision in it - where to Blink and when to Blink. Charge kinda only had when to Charge. Since there was so short cooldown, there was no reason to "save" Charge and only use it at the correct moment. Always use it! The current version of Charge might not be perfect either though.
Regarding the pathing system, I do agree that units have a large impact on the gameplay. But I will keep it for now, especially since December just improved it further. When I feel that Starbow is "good enough", I will try to present it to more players and do some "advertising" here on TL. To see if more people cares to play this. If it turns out that a lot of players hate the pathing system and think it suck balls, well, then I ofc have to listen and remove it.
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I don't think we can increase zealot move speed before charge without breaking early-game PvZ...
2-gate pressure is almost so good that a nerf/buff should be placed. But only almost, I still think meta-game can solve this one!
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On August 16 2013 00:40 Xiphias wrote:
I don't think we can increase zealot move speed before charge without breaking early-game PvZ...
2-gate pressure is almost so good that a nerf/buff should be placed. But only almost, I still think meta-game can solve this one!
I meant more with the charge upgrade
I thought about this 2gate pressure versus zerg btw, in broodwar it was no problem beating this, it should work in scbow, when i got faced against solid he went 2gate pressure outside his natural
And i died hard as hell but i played more sc2style, not bwstyle i think it can work, lets try tonight?
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I held gossen nicely by actually getting a fast third by nat (make a wall) and NOT build queens (just mass lings and slowly work on simcity).
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Might also depend on the maps?
I think we need to explore it more before any changes. Maybe fast Baneling nest is a respons vs 2gate zealot pressure? Allows Z to take back map control?
I failed 2-3 two-gate openings in a row vs Xiphias yesterday. (Might depend on me ofc ^^)
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On August 16 2013 01:51 Xiphias wrote:
I held gossen nicely by actually getting a fast third by nat (make a wall) and NOT build queens (just mass lings and slowly work on simcity).
Gossen took a much quicker expansion though, i experimented with both pressure before expanding and pressure after expanding. The first one is highly recommended because the zerg needs both queens to defend this, meaning he wont always be able to inject, thus disrupting his macro heavily. Making a fast third as wall off only works if the toss goes for pressure after expo, because you have the time to get some spines and get hydra's out. If it's pressure before expo however, then you don't have that time and need to pump lings nonstop, by making that third as wall off you actually help the toss more, it's another choke to abuse and queen dps doesn't do much vs zealots.
So in short, the hardest type of 2gate to hold is when the gates are getting chrono'd early and producing whenever you can until about 7-9 zealots are out and pressuring nonstop, the smallest mistake by zerg can be exploited.
The biggest problem about this is that it's much easier for the toss to micro (pulling away hurt zealots is easier than pulling away lings obviously and zerg needs to use his queen energy correctly, inject for units?/creep tumor for speed?/pooling energy for transfuse on spines?), so it's much harder to determine whether it's balanced or not.
About pathing system, it has many annoyances, but there is one big thing i like about it: surrounding is much harder, this makes early micro vs zerg much better.
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Yes there is an asymmetric relation here with zerg being more difficult to play in this situation. I do not think that in itself is reason enough to change anything as this is the case in many different scenarios. That is one of the charms of Starcraft in general. Some races are easier than others depending on the situations.
If this seems close to unstoppable, however, then nerf and/or buff could be proper. I strongly suggest to let players work around this scenario more before making any changes to zealots, queens or zerglings. (or other suff like spine build time or zealot build time)
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So:
I got a new sound card which works great.
And I've got new interface in observer mode so more of the screen is visible.
I AM READY FOR A STARBOW NIGHT! Come play!
Edit: My stream should be up around 8
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i'll be on around 9 
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not anymore youre not! (please get the southpark reference :D)
Ill make sure to be up around 9 too..
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I would come but there's some really important stuff going on right now... ehuehue
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Reaver damage 100 + 20 after upgrade now. Is that intentional?
At least that makes absolutlely zero sense with the way protoss can now dominate zerg early game.
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Tech units should dominate, rather the toss earlygame shouldn't dominate as hard. Don't pinpoint balance on 1 unit.
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We played some zvp today, a nice matchup actually
2gate zealot pressure, solid did 9/10 gate with chrono. It is really powerful
Forces zerg to make lots of zerglings. My opening wasnt ideal iam sure it can be improved
but these games solid got ahead quite abit after the pressure
my feeling was that vipers is essential in zvp, abduct against reavers or ensare for his big ground armee, which makes your hydras or lings really effective
The viper is kinda smooth to play around with since it is a flying support caster, i like the viper more than the darkswarm guy
Reavers were really good, combined with early speed zealots you have a force here,
with a little better opening for zerg the matchup seems rather nice, i found lots of holes in my play today atleast in 1game
There are lots of things that can be looked into, but mostly stats changes here and there
overall most urgent thing to look at is maybe the 2gate pressure against zerg, other than that it seemed rather nice, i would even say after today games, zerg is a bit more powerful (even if the games today showed the other way around)
but solid didnt use any hightemplars, they are really nice!
just some fast thoughts, lots is unexplored still, like hightemplars or mass corsairs.
Did you know that corsairs >devourers btw? Can be a potential big problem
And ultraliskt seems rather bad unit but thats ok tbh cuz that unit is rather boring (maybe switch that unit, its very clumpsy and hard to micro)
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I watched the re-stream.
1. I have not changed the magic box formation value for months. It has value 12 instead of the normal SC2 value 6. (It simply means units are more likely to stay in formation rather than to fall back into clumps.)
2. I will write a post about balance tomorrow.
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On August 17 2013 09:15 Kabel wrote:
I watched the re-stream.
1. I have not changed the magic box formation value for months. It has value 12 instead of the normal SC2 value 6. (It simply means units are more likely to stay in formation rather than to fall back into clumps.)
2. I will write a post about balance tomorrow.
I blame Xiphias's graphics card making him think the pathing was acting odd.
Then everyone will think something is wrong even if it is completely unrelated 
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But this is why I have the pathing system. It is much worse to just A-move into enemy armies now, because armies move in straight lines and not in blobs. Units require more micro in combat. Flanking is better. Army position etc. And you want me to remove the system, and bring back the SC2 system?
Noone a-moves in Sc2 really. You are always better off flanking still than attacking with a tighly packed clump since the back end of the units can't attack then (against non-meele units).
I can't notice any lesser deatball effects with the movement speed nor any real significant new micro tricks with the movement change. Instead, I believe it accomplishes two things;
1) Make units look kinda dumb. Don't think this aspects affect gameplay significantly. But it is easy to think your units are more clumpsy than they actually are though.
2) Makes splitting much more annoying for anyone coming from an sc2 background as units aren't in the places where they usually are in Sc2. Thus, you have to relean how you split which personally has led me to stop playing bio as it seems like something that is totally pointless to relearn.
Since the original intention behind the unit movement speed was to make it less deathball, I think we most people who have activalely played this mod, must conclude that it has failed. Thus, it IMO makes a lot of logical sense to just bring back the Sc2 movement system.
Instead, I believe that the most significant changes for rewarding aggression and anti-deathball play was the viking nerf/warp prism buff, rift-buff and stalker vs early game zerg buff as it has allowed for a lot of early game protoss aggression (which isn't consistent with "OP reavers. It has to be one or the other).
Further, I also believe that nerfs to static defenses has been an improvement as well. So I believe that it is more effective and smoother to adjust unit stats rather than experimenting with potential annoying stuff.
What prevents P from massing Blink Stalkers all game long? As soon as T tries to push or moves out, the Blink Stalkers can easily get inside the third base and deny it. The threat of having the Protoss main army inside Terrans third base will force T to stay very very defensively. (Only having 3-5 Tanks for defence might even not be enough.)
Don't think this neccesarily is a real problem. I like when different styles are viable. Some players may opt for immortal/zealot heavy compostions vs mech. Other could opt for the more mobile but less map control dependant style. The important thing though is that each style has its weakness's and strenghts and should require a different reaction from the terran player.
So if I (as a mech'ing player) scouts a protoss going for heavy stalker play, the correct decision should be to play defensively, because the protoss player has a lot of "dead supply" in stalkers. So as long as he can't just stay on stalkers all game long (which I am pretty sure he can't), the protoss is forced to make something happen. On the other hand, if he goes for immortal heavy compositions, he has a harder time counterattacking and is likely to not have warp tech finished yet (cus he delays twilight/templar tech likely). Instead, he could be vulnerable in the proces of teching to arbiters/carriers which a mech'ing terran could punish with a well timed timing attack.
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EPT
