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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 13 2013 04:39 SmileZerg wrote: Immortals need to be countered ONLY by Marines/Ghosts if we want to force Terran to diversify his compositions. They have to crush Tanks with equal resources. I disagree. Bio should have its uses but not be mandatory just because toss makes a specific unit. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On August 13 2013 03:09 Kabel wrote: But all weaknessess are exploited by counter units? That is what makes a unit a counter unit? Counter units are units that exploit special weaknesses such as no anti air, colossus hight, damage types. Normal units can usually exploit all other weaknesses in some way. Even Reavers can exploit the immobility of siege tanks. Melee units can exploit other melee units with surrounds. Low damage per shot can be exploited with upgrades. The weaknesses (and strengths) that gives counter units are the ones clearly targetting specific units or unit groups. As i described in my big writeup such attributes still have their place, since they add strategic depth, but they also lower the depth of the unit itself. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Especially the opening. Protoss has several options here, dark templars stargate play A push (stalkers + zealotshuttle drop for example) To defend against stargate and darktemplars, you can go for turrets. The tricky part here is though, you need goliaths against the stargate if you wanna be able to move out And against dark templars you need a science vessel, iam not kidding This will in turn make you move out very late because 1) You need to call down scvs to keep up with economy. 2) Its hard to relie on turrets in the middle of the map And against the push you need your siegetanks with vultures --- How do you scan darktemplars if u call down scvs? Especially in the opening. Or else terran will fall behind alot in economy you need to build in the opening 1) armory 2) engineering bay 3) turrets This slows you down alot | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I think it would be too brutal to implement such a hard counter vs mech. All I want to do is make TvP not always be Mech vs Gateway units, as it were in BW. Just make it a liiittle bit broader, and open up for some bio play and some different unit compositions/play styles from both P and T. But I do not wanna overthrow the basic gameplay of BW, which I use as a guidelight in this project. Rather tweak it a little bit. We will probably see mech in 9 of 10 games. But that is fine as long as there is potential to explore other playstyles. And I just want tp push that a bit, cause if we keep the exact BW balance, everonye will already know that Bio can barely be played. @Zaphod What attributes do you suggest for the Immortal? @Foxxan I am aware of those problems. It is hard to know what is imbalances, what is due to meta game, what is due to build orders etc. I just mean that it is important that I make "correct" changes, so I do not make it worse The balance is ofc not perfect, and I do have some small adjustements in mind for early PvT, based on games I´ve seen the last 5-7 days. Hopefully will I get the patch up tomorrow. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
and knowledge My experience is from bw alot, protoss never went for stargate there because the scout was so ineffective and expensive, was never a threat ever. So you didnt need goliaths to move out Spidermines could hit darktemplars and they had scans. No scv calldown there, just pure scan Your opening in tvp bw looked like this: Factory, ebay, academy(150minerals)<- to make scan And now you can move out. Opening in scbow tvp: factory, armory, ebay(upgrade your command center) make atleast 1goliath for safety vs stargate And now you cant move out if he goes dts. It needs further testing ofcourse to get a more clear picture, but as of right now it looks pretty harsh | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Positive things with the Stargate: - It allows for more build order diversity for Protoss. More options for openings. - It allows for earlier "action" since P gets access to an early harassment unit (Sentinel.) If T must rush to Goliaths or Turrets for this, well, then something is wrong. And IMO one easy thing here is to make Marines little stronger vs Sentinels. In this way, it can be good for Terran to get a few early Marines for defence. (Atm the Sentinel is IMO too strong vs Marines. And if T wastes too much money to get Marines, then it is still a small victory for P, even if he did not do so much damage with the Sentinel. Unless the Marines is used for an early push, which forces a reaction from Protoss, and so on.) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 13 2013 05:40 Kabel wrote: Yea the balance in Starbow will require some different approaches compared to BW, since there are some new stuff in the game. A fine example is that early Stargate play is viable in TvP now, which it was not in BW. Positive things with the Stargate: - It allows for more build order diversity for Protoss. More options for openings. - It allows for earlier "action" since P gets access to an early harassment unit (Sentinel.) If T must rush to Goliaths or Turrets for this, well, then something is wrong. And IMO one easy thing here is to make Marines little stronger vs Sentinels. In this way, it can be good for Terran to get a few early Marines for defence. (Atm the Sentinel is IMO too strong vs Marines. And if T wastes too much money to get Marines, then it is still a small victory for P, even if he did not do so much damage with the Sentinel. Unless the Marines is used for an early push, which forces a reaction from Protoss, and so on.) I love the viability of the stargate Some small suggestions goliath no need for armory Ghost(?) I dont think marines will work even if they get buffed, mechterran would need to mass them About ghost: I really think ghost needs to work vs sentinels safeguard and i dont think it truly do that right now with their lockdown ability It is to short range if the protoss players uses his armee to its fullest strength i dont think ghost can reach the sentinel I see some potential problem for bio terran vs darktemplars also since they to need to call down scvs instead of saving energy for scans Making scienve vessel only for dts is a bit to much So the ghost, somehow make it reach the sentinel to block his safeguard from safelocation and at the same time be able to handle sentinel in the opening phase AND help with detection in someway so small suggestions for him: Nerf his auto attack damage, and gas cost Make him go energy unit, why? Because: 1) So he needs to choose which "road" he goes. Need detectionfor dt? then he cant use any other spell He needs to lockdown the sentinel? Then he cant use any other spell He needs to be able to defend against sentinels autoattacks? Then he can only do that just some small brainstorming | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
Terran got very solid detection through and between scan, turrets and science vessels i don't see much of an issue. You say making science vessels for DTs is abit much? I think it matches the investment very well. Having access to Nerve jammer is also almost always beneficial. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 13 2013 06:22 Sumadin wrote: I think shock could have slightly longer range. Its missile doesn't move that fast, so you want to be closer anyway. It doesn't last very long and is very micro intensive. Terran got very solid detection through and between scan, turrets and science vessels i don't see much of an issue. You say making science vessels for DTs is abit much? I think it matches the investment very well. Having access to Nerve jammer is also almost always beneficial. i dont think u read my post, i wrote why this was not possible | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
On August 13 2013 05:20 Kabel wrote: @Zaphod What attributes do you suggest for the Immortal? Welp, thats actually kinda hard, 2.75 speed might be a nessesity if Immortals are ever going to do a well executed attack with Zealots. Long range might be good for Immortals too, but I would suggest trying how a faster Immortal with 5 range works too. Another option is to let Immortals have good speed and range, but reduce their in-combat mobility with even more clumsyness. HP is kinda the last possible primary weakness, but then it won't be an "Immortal" would it? Unless ofc Immortals have somewhat low HP for their cost but had to rely on a much more powerful absorb to stay alive... Its a tough call, but the reduced range seems like the simplest solution. With this it would have the attributes. Primarys: Heavy damage and below average range. Secondaries: High HP and low attack speed. Advanced: HP increasing ability, overkill, long attack delay and large model Special: No anti air and reduced damage to light. Might work, might not. If the low (5) range does not work I guess you could try making absorb stronger and reduce damage from all attacks while drastically lowering the HP. One final note is that Immortals have really solid advanced weaknesses, so they might end up working without primary weaknesses. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On August 13 2013 07:52 Laertes wrote: It happened again today. For the umpteenth time someone refused to play me more than two games because I wasn't as good as they were. It sucks. It stings when I lose and my greatest fear is that this will happen, that I will be denied playing starbow which I really love and have no reason to play other than to get my ass kicked. I do not win when I play starbow, I do not come close, and to learn is hard when there is no one who wants to play. And I am shamed once again, because I am not a good starcraft player, I doubt I will ever be one, I guess I'm just asking everyone to understand that it would take me a long long time to get any good as starcraft, hopefully I will get to watch more games soon. Without good mechanics you will be beaten every time, regardless of strategy. By laddering regular sc2 you could train your mechanics as they are very similar to starbow, might help, but will take a long time without doubt to catch up i'm afraid. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On August 13 2013 08:33 SolidSMD wrote: Without good mechanics you will be beaten every time, regardless of strategy. By laddering regular sc2 you could train your mechanics as they are very similar to starbow, might help, but will take a long time without doubt to catch up i'm afraid. Solid gives good advice here. There are some lower tiered players who sbow, but they really only play once in a blue moon. As far as I can tell all the regulars are pretttttty hardcore. It is the same thing with trying to get good at counterstrike or anything with a massive skill gap. Well, at least you aren't trying to break into the BW scene, that would be a million times harder. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 13 2013 05:11 Foxxan wrote: I have some balance concerns in tvp mech Especially the opening. Protoss has several options here, dark templars stargate play A push (stalkers + zealotshuttle drop for example) To defend against stargate and darktemplars, you can go for turrets. The tricky part here is though, you need goliaths against the stargate if you wanna be able to move out And against dark templars you need a science vessel, iam not kidding This will in turn make you move out very late because 1) You need to call down scvs to keep up with economy. 2) Its hard to relie on turrets in the middle of the map And against the push you need your siegetanks with vultures --- How do you scan darktemplars if u call down scvs? Especially in the opening. Or else terran will fall behind alot in economy you need to build in the opening 1) armory 2) engineering bay 3) turrets This slows you down alot The easiest fix here is letting spidermines kill dt's. Messing with scan energy or SV cost will mess up other match-ups. I always remember the fun to see a struggling terran in BW try to fend off dt's with spidermines if he was caught without detection. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
According to Xiphias calculations, a Protoss that uses constant Chrono boost on his Nexus will still be slightly behind a Terran player who uses constant Calldown SCV. If I understand it correctly should it be like this: - P uses Chrono boost on Gateways or upgrades -> gets behind in Workers. - T uses energy on Scan or Calldown Supply -> gets behind in Workers. Both players can force the other to waste energy, for example if T does an early push, or P does DT harass. If P does not use any Chrono boost at all on this Gateways, Terran will outproduce him due to the effectiveness of Reactors. (Which means that each Terran production building is more cost efficient at converting minerals into units, compared to the infrastructure that is needed for Protoss to produce the same amount of units.) In other words, if P can force T to use Scans, he gains a small advantage in worker production. Otherwise P will be behind in either worker or army production, depending on how he uses his Chrono boost. I might be wrong though. Maybe we need to calculate how efficiently the races can macro units compared to each other. What race is most efficient in converting resources into units, and has to pay the least for infrastructure? How big is the differences? How was it in BW? Etc.. (I suppose Zerg has cheapest infrastructure though, but in return that also hurts worker production) Here is Xiphias calculation about worker production: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=322#6424 @Why not let Spider mines kill cloaked units? If it is crucial for the balance, then I guess it must be fixed. But I kinda like that Mines do not kill cloaked units. (Unless T has detection in that area) - It opens a window for DT, Ghost, Lurker and burrow movement Zerg units haraassment/attacks, which forces T to use reactions to defend vs it. Placing down a wall of Spider mines does not automatically stop those kind of sneaky attacks in itself. (But it stops "normal" visible attacks) At least requires a Turret, a Vessel or quick reaction time with Scans to make the MInes kill the pesky cloaked intruders. And this opens up one more weakness good players can exploit. But again, I have to be realistic. If it sucks to deal with DTs, and it turns out to be imbalanced and it dictates the match-up too much, then ofc I have to make adjustements. Edit: Ops, fixed the link above. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
A short game will have chorno boost a much higher percentage of the game than orbital, and a long game will have less need of orbital energy towards the late-game (since svc's take supply) but chrono is slightly more useful in lategame for tech switches and such (carriers anyone?) imo. SVC calldown should then be more effective on worker production than chronoboost in light of these observation to create an interesting asymmetrical game-play. Protoss gets a head start with chrono off the bat, terran gets a stronger late-game with rapid SCV production and protoss gets a stronger latgame with the possible faster upgardes and tech-switches. You got the wrong link Kabel: here is my post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=322#6424 Here I concluded that SCV - calldown was surprisingly strong compared to chrono (surprising in the sense that my attitude was that they were more similar before I started ion the math). This is important! They OB calldown should be much better than chrono in increasing eco. Maybe even better than it is now since it only has one function (well... scan and supply as well...) whereas chrono has much more utility, and since OB is an extra cost requiring some tech. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Would it be possible to do some kind of calculation on overall macro potential? (Gateways vs Factories etc) (Not sure how to approach it since there are so many factors, like production structures cost, units build time, strcutures build time, unit cost, tech tree cost to unlock units, and ofc macro mechanics like Chrono boost and Inject) | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
This will focus mainly on TvP since that is a match-up we play a lot and it is quite problematic atm. I try to make sure those changes do not break PvZ or TvZ in any way. Lets look at three large balance/match-up problems some of you have talked about: 1.) TvP early air. >>>+ Show Spoiler + It is hard to stop early air attacks from Protoss. T is forced to go into fast Turrets or tech for fast Goliaths or Vikings, and thereby gets "contained" quite easily early, and rush for higher tech. Sentinels seem to beat Marines - Reduce Sentinel damage from 6 to 5. (This makes Marines better at fending them off) - Fix Null wards. (They are currently bugged atm, but here is how they are suppose to work) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=322#6423 The values described in the post are a bit out-dated. 2. Stalkers & Immortals do not feel good or useful vs Terran. >>>+ Show Spoiler + Stalkers currently deal 12 dmg vs armored, 14 vs light and medium, but are quite fragile. The Terran units affected by that are: Marine, Medic, Reaper, Vulture, Banshee, SCV. - Reduce SCV life from 60 to 45, as in SC2. Sooner or later will this be a balance problem once Terran starts to all-in together with early Matrix, reactored Marines, early Marauders etc. (Which we have already seen some games with.) A life reduction would also make Stalkers 4-shot them, which makes early Stalker drops, pokes, or "run-bys" into the natural expansion stronger. (Use Rift to save them.) It is true that Stalkers will not be that good as a combat unit later in the game, at least not vs T mech. So it is important that the Immortal gets fixed so it is playable, feels good and has a place in the army. I am currently working on it. (More info coming soon) 3. Terran Tanks & Mines >>>+ Show Spoiler + Currently Tanks cost 3 supply and are stronger, compared to earlier where they costed only 2 supply, but were slightly weaker. The problem is that Terran can not get "enough" Tanks to distribute across his bases, while still have enough Tanks to put up contains and take control over parts of the map. (With Turrets, Mines, Tanks spread out over more screens) - I will revert Tanks to their old value, which means 2 supply and -5 damage. (35 vs light, 50 vs all, 65 vs armored) And slightly less DPS when unsieged. This will however not make sieged Tanks 2-shot Stalkers anymore with +1 attack upgrade. Instead they need +2 attack upgrade. Not sure if this is good or bad. - Spider mines will also get a small damage increase, plus explode in a larger area, since they do feel quite weak atm. - If I manage to solve it, I will make Vultures have a short delay when they place Spider mines. (So they stand still for a second or two, which makes it a little harder to just throw mines while the Vulture moves around inside the P base.) Other things I will look into: + Show Spoiler + - Stasis Field currently costs 75 energy and affects 4 units. Instant cast. Makes it easy to aim at exactly the right units. One Arbiter can cast two Stasis Fields. I consider to change it to 125 energy and affect 6-8 units or something like that. Add a casting delay. - Reaver damage is very low - Viking is crap from the start. Apart from this will I make some smaller modifications to spells etc. For example give Shock at the Ghost slightly longer cast range, make Zerg burrow movement upgrade slightly cheaper (really expensive atm) and so on I know there are some other concerns, like it is hard to get detecion vs DTs, Storm damage feels weak vs Terran Mech, Archons too good vs T, Carriers suck vs T, and some more things. When I have gotten the fundamentals of TvP to work properly, will I look into some of the other issues. So I do not do everything at once and it turns out to be messy. But maybe in the next patch. Additional stuff: + Show Spoiler + - Reaper does not get a splash attack anymore with the upgrade. Instead they only get the ability to place down bombs at location, which deals high dmg vs especially structures. (Blast the Photon cannons away and send in Vultures!) - Marauder can now swap between a grenade attack and a flamethrower-kinda attack. I am right now testing some values for this unit, so it feels decent. I can not guarantee this will work good for the gameplay. But I will give it a try in the game. If it turns out to be horrible, I need to look for another solution. If it turns out to be fun, cool and balanced, then I have one less thing to worry about. - I am also considering how the upgrades shall be at the Barrack. If the Marauder should benefit from a range upgrade, revert Stimpack to its normal position in the tech tree and so on. - Decemberscalm has modified the pathing system. See how it feels now. I think this was it. Hm.. The balance will ofc not be perfect all of a sudden. But I want to get the right dynamics in place. Especially the Zealot, Stalker, Immortal, Marauder, Mines, Tank, Sentinel, Marine stuff, so everything has its place, and nothing feels redundant. As usual, if you think this is insanity, or something should be modified in an other way, or I have forgotten something, or I am taking the wrong approach, then tell me here in the thread! I aim to have the patch uploaded maybe 6 hours from now, since I still need to spend more hours in the editor. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
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