EPT[A] Starbow - Page 355
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
You have no idea how many different ways I tried to rebuild the spider mine x.x. The default SC2 blizz version is just awful. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:25 decemberscalm wrote: You have no idea how many different ways I tried to rebuild the spider mine x.x. The default SC2 blizz version is just awful. I have no idea  | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:25 Kabel wrote: If its too easy to move Vultures and plant Mines at the same time, I can add a short delay to the Vulture. When it plants a Mine it needs to stop for maybe 2 seconds. Go to the unittester and try foryourself its really hardto tell if it to easy or not, its not instant 100% to plant a mine and than just move | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
That is why I need to hear more from you, and maybe use point of references from BW. To see/hear how Vulture + Spider mine micro worked vs for example Dragoons. Maybe a similar feeling can be reached. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On August 12 2013 22:16 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: The thing is, Immortals are pretty much the Dragoon replacement atm. I argued a while back that they should gain a bit more speed but get more clucky attacks to compensate (make them more like Dragoons). Stalkers might need a bit more damage to fill their niche, but I would wait with going further on changing them untill the Immortals are in the right place. even if immortal fills that role, it doesn't work for toss imo, how can a core mass unit be on one of its techbuildings, if it should fill the dragoon gap then people would need to build multiple robo's for decent production. Besides, they would come out too late to poke vs the mech player, atm the mech player is very safe in the earlygame, even if he masses vultures. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On August 12 2013 23:03 Kabel wrote: I do try it a lot. But it is hard to determine. That is why I need to hear more from you, and maybe use point of references from BW. To see/hear how Vulture + Spider mine micro worked vs for example Dragoons. Maybe a similar feeling can be reached. Hmm ok, i will try to remember as best as i can The differences was 1) Planting a spidermine was melee range in broodwar, i mean like 0range, he planted it where he stood 2) If u had 6vultures selected, and pressed plant mine once, they all planted at the same time 3) Hmm, it took a while for them to plant it, wasnt instant. If i remember correctly, the vulture planted it fast but the spidermine went into the ground abit slower than in scbow With all these in mind, the most crucial thing that comes into my mind is when there is a battle, now the vultures can plant offensive mines easier compared to broodwar because of: 1) higher range 2) the mines plants faster You cant however plant mines at the same time Was a long time i saw vulture mines in broodwar, i should maybe check a vod to get a clear picture Just as a reminder Spidermines: 1) 125 damage to big units (dragoons, siegetanks, reavers etc) 2) half damage versus small units (zealots, darktemplar, zerglings, etc) 3) I am not 100% of this but the radius was smaller 4) in broodwar, u could actually micro against that spidermine without detection --> You walk a dragoon to it, it comes up from the ground, and now 2shoots to kill it, it worked to kill it without getting damaged if u were good (it was hard, you need pro micro) sort of You could also do dropmicro against it in bw, you drop right at it, it comes up from ground and ectactly when it detonate you take it up with shuttle(this was realitvely easy) EDIT: ok i just saw some tiny parts of a tvp in broodwar. They actually planted them fast, they were not hard to plant in battles either When vultures plant aside dragoons in broodwar, they back off and use their range as they should Him underneath mentions "herpderp", thats true they could become that but only because if units are stacked together and a vulture plants in the middle, he goes "herpderp". I have hard time expalining but it cant happen in scbow and wow, they are so fast in broodwar, the vultures and also, when the spidermine triggers from a unit, a short delay and then it moves fast as hell Its pretty close to scbow actually Iam rambling now maybe i dont know, hope it helped | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
There are IMO three things that makes it fun to control: - It has high range (half the range of a Siege tank in BW.) - It has high speed - It has a slow but powerful attack. Moving forward with a bunch of Dragoons, shoot a volley and back off, is a fun feeling. It feels powerful and rewarding. Why is that feeling not there for the Stalker and Immortal? Immortal + Show Spoiler + What is the problem with this bad boy? - It is slow - It has relatively short range (Compared to how Dragoons had vs Tanks in BW) It is not so fun to control it. I can move in, click on Absorb, maybe target fire something. But it is so slow so it will either: 1) Win the combat 2) Lose the combat 3) Force the enemy to retreat It can not retreat. Not poke. Not fire a volley and back away. How can the feeling of the Immortal be improved? - Increase range from 6 to 7. (Same relationship as Dragoons had vs Tanks in BW) - Speed from 2.5 to 2.75. (Almost same speed as Dragoons had in BW) - Its current attack is twice as strong as the Dragoon attack. Every time I hit an enemy unit, it feels like I blast off his ass. Feels much better when I play around with it in the editors test map. (But it requires a rebalance) Stalker + Show Spoiler + I actually think this unit feels quite fun to control. As long as it fights vs the right targets. It has: - high speed and is very swift (later comes Blink) - long range (compared to other ranged core units) - burst attack with long cooldown - fragile I feel I must control them well, especially as the game progresses, and they can not always just fight on their own. And they are indeed very bad vs the wrong targets. (Tanks, Marauder, Immortal, Lurker, Ultra, even Hydras if not protected) They feel fun to control in PvZ and PvP. (I only talk about how I feel) The problem lies in PvT - there are not enough targets the Stalkers is good against: - Vulture, Reaper, Marine, Banshee. Maybe SCVs. It does not work when engaging Tank lines together with Zealots. It does not feel like the Dragoon + Zealots did. And if it has high damage vs armored, it will be broken together with Blink vs Tanks. (As before) So what can be done? - SCV life reverted to 45 again. Sooner or later will this be broken, when players discover all-ins. Terran already have acess to early Matrix + Marauder. A life reduction on the SCV will make Stalkers 4-shot them, which makes them actually able to kill Terran workers.  - The Immortal must get a proper fun factor and proper balance, so the Stalker does not have to be the "Dragoon" vs mech, since it can not fill that role. But why not just throw in the Dragoon?? + Show Spoiler + The SC2 engine. In BW, it felt rewarding, challenging and fun to control lots of the same units. It was almost as fun and almost as hard to control 50 Hydras as it was to control 20 Zerglings, 20 Hydras, 10 Lurkers. This does not work in the SC2 engine. Blizzard battles this by having many units in SC2 who are quite similar, but still require some kind of different control and are good/worse vs certain units. All of the main races have two almost identical core units: - Marine & Marauder - Stalker & Immortal - Hydra & Roach Since players can select unlimited units, there must be more reasons to micro specific kinds of units, and make sure they attack stuff they are good against. I think mass Dragoons vs mass Hydras was fun and hard to micro in BW. Even if it was the same kind of unit on both sides. In the SC2 engine is that a lame fight. An allround unit like the Dragoon feels lame in the SC2 engine because it is an unlimited blob who can fight vs almost eveything. (And IMO, I am sad that Hydras feel so lame in Starbow compared to how they felt in BW.) Units still clump up so much. When I had the Dragoon in Starbow, massable from the Gateawy, it was nowhere near the same good feeling as in BW. (That does not mean it is impossible to get a good feeling. I just failed at least.) Fun fights in the SC2 engine IMO comes from the need of controlling many different kinds of units in combats. (And I have tried to make this feel good even with many old BW units in the game, and via some new abilities and spells. I try to make so many different kinds of units are needed to win a combat/the match, But it is not perfect!) What do I want from the Stalker and Immortal? + Show Spoiler + If properly balanced and tweaked, Protoss would need to manage 3 major units in combat. especially in PvT: - Zealots to take the front beating and absorb hits from Spider mines. - Stalkers with Blink to get in good positions with Safeguard. Can Blink-sacrifice a few Stalkers into Tanks. Needs to fend of Vultures and maybe Vessels/Banshees. But not strong enough to clean up Tanks or Marauders. - Immortal as the ranged strong damage dealer. Kinda like the Dragoon were. Needed to combat for example Tanks, Marauders and Goliaths. Atm, arguably Zealots and Stalkers are needed. The Immortal is too bad and can not really do anything. (Due to slow speed and short range.) And the Stalker is too weak vs Tanks to really do anything. So mass Zealots + Archon + Arbiters looks to be the way to go. But how is the Immortal suppose to work if it does not come from the Gateway? + Show Spoiler + Since it requires another tech building, comes a bit later in the game, and has no anti-air, it should IMO be very strong for its cost. Atm it has 70 more shields than the Dragoon in BW. Twice the damage. Absorb. Almost the same price and faster build time. But it is worthless because of bad range + speed IMO. Instead of seeing 20+ Gateways for core unit production in late game PvT as in BW, what prevents us from seeing 15+ Gateways and 3 Robotic Facilities instead? (Or if P wanna go pure Gateway/Warp gate, that playstyle can also be viable, if he wanna add in support from spellcasters and not take any major engagements. Or something.) Maybe we will not see the same scenario as in BW, with ca 50/50 Zealots and Dragoons with Arbiter + Shuttle support. Maybe will we instead see 50/25/25 Zealot Stalker Immortal with Sentinel, Arbiter, Scout with Phase Missile vs Vessels, Storm support. And Warp in and Blink allows for even more late game harassment and multitasking. (Which is very hard to combine with the strong Dragoon) But this will never work! + Show Spoiler + Maybe it will not. Maybe I never manage to find a good dynamic with this. Maybe I just end up throwing in the Dragoon. But I really really want to go beyond BW. Try go get something more from the game. Even a tiny improvement is an improvement. If I just go BW-mode, we might all just play BW instead. I really wish I could upload the patch tonight - improved pathing system, bug fixes, better unit dynamics. (Hopefully) I´ve worked all day in the editor. But I still have so much work to do. It never stops. : / | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
We might end up with just another Marauder that has no real defensive holes to exploit other than with counter units. The slow speed is a problem for the current Immortal, but is there really any reason for it to have 7 or even 6 range? If Immortals only have 5 range they should still be able to compete with most other ranged units, while stalkers could have the longer range for the situations 7 range is needed. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
Also, Marauders look disgustingly overpowered. 16 +12 light +20 armored? With Stim? So what don't they counter? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The values I described might not be realistic in the game, but when I explore it in the editor it does give a good feeling to the Immortal in terms of control. But all weaknessess are exploited by counter units? That is what makes a unit a counter unit? Hydras for example are fast, have high DPS and good attack range. Their weakness is low HP and their damage values vs certain units. In other words, their weaknessess exists due to units in the game are able to take advantage of that - for example High templar or Reaver. Maries are also a counter due to just being more cost efficient because of the damage values. (But micro can be used to overcome those relationships.) Marines, Zerglings, Air units, spells, Zealots, longer range attacks, etc are things who can be used against the Immortals, since they interact badly vs those kinds of units. Isn't that kinda enough? (I know you have written about this many times Zaphod, but not all units in neither BW or SC2 falls into your category of strenghts/weaknessess, but are still interesting for the gameplay? Correct me if I am wrong) So... you removed the Void Ray and Colossus, heavily nerfed Warp Gate, and made Immortals sort of pointless (+light?) except for harass. What's the point of removing Colo for Reaver- requiring shuttle/warp prism micro for Protoss to do anything to Bio? Also, Marauders look disgustingly overpowered. +12 light +20 armored? So what don't they counter? Are you serious? Join us in the Starbow chat channel on EU if you want to observe some games instead. I think people might be playing tonight. Ps. I PM you some replays if you are curious and want to see the gameplay. | ||
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Azelja
Japan762 Posts
On August 13 2013 03:04 Crownlol wrote: So... you removed the Void Ray and Colossus, heavily nerfed Warp Gate, and made Immortals sort of pointless (+light?) except for harass. What's the point of removing Colo for Reaver- requiring shuttle/warp prism micro for Protoss to do anything to Bio? Also, Marauders look disgustingly overpowered. 16 +12 light +20 armored? With Stim? So what don't they counter? Statements this stupid should not be allowed to exist. | ||
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On August 13 2013 03:20 Azelja wrote: Statements this stupid should not be allowed to exist. yeap, the kind of uninformed jackass that needs to have his opinion heard in every thread. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 13 2013 02:13 Kabel wrote: Immortal What is the problem with this bad boy? - It is slow - It has relatively short range (Compared to how Dragoons had vs Tanks in BW) It is not so fun to control it. I can move in, click on Absorb, maybe target fire something. But it is so slow so it will either: 1) Win the combat 2) Lose the combat 3) Force the enemy to retreat It can not retreat. Not poke. Not fire a volley and back away. How can the feeling of the Immortal be improved? - Increase range from 6 to 7. (Same relationship as Dragoons had vs Tanks in BW) - Speed from 2.5 to 2.75. (Almost same speed as Dragoons had in BW) - Its current attack is twice as strong as the Dragoon attack. Every time I hit an enemy unit, it feels like I blast off his ass. Feels much better when I play around with it in the editors test map. (But it requires a rebalance) I like it, but it should then have a much slower attack speed. Maybe a slower dmg point as well (do I know what I am talking about?) | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
(So it must stand still for 0.5 seconds before it can attack. Kinda gives it that clumpsy feeling, but becomes powerful if properly microed. Move in, shoot a heavy blast, back away.) Here is the video December sent me The attack speed of the Immortal is slower in Starbow than shown in his video. But if it gains a bit higher speed and maybe longer range, it will be more fun to control it. Maybe it should have an upgrade for that? So it does not start with almost as good speed and range as the Stalker? (Stalkers will still be the more mobile option via Blink + Warp in. And lower damage point on the attack.) The natural place to put an upgrade is on the Robotic bay. Either + range or + speed. Or both in the same upgrade? But that kinda forces P up that tree if they just want their Immortal to function decently. If I put it on Cybernetics core? Maybe it is too easy to get uber Immortals? Why get Stalker range when you can get super Immortals? It is on the Cybernets core but requires Robotic facility? Hm hmm hmm And then something must be done with Absorb.. But I kinda like it. When I micro vs the computer, and he shoots a volley of missiles at my Immortal, and I am quick and click on Absorb to prevent all that damage, I feel like a bad ass Clint Eastwood. I will play around with the Immortal tonight and see if I find some good solution, where it feels fun to control, becomes useful, and decently balanced. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
and potential early air Let me get this straight, immortal will do more damage than stalkers versus everything? Have you considder making a new spell for the immortal? Some mobile spell or something? More range reduced movementspeed delay to attack Look at the immortals spell, something more cooler could probably be done to him in that regard maybe even mobile spell? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Let me get this straight, immortal will do more damage than stalkers versus everything? Well, there must be differences between the units. Some advantages and disadvantages. - Stalker is more mobile, more swift, can Blink, can be Warped in, can attack air, has ok damage vs non-armored stuff, but is quite fragile and bad vs armored enemies. - Immortal has much more life & shield, much better damage*, more cost efficient in pure battles, but can not attack air and is not exactly as mobile as the Stalker. *the damage differences is probably hard to nail immediately. But generally should the Immortal IMO have better DPS than the Stalker. Maybe vs everything on the ground, since it has some disadvantages. Maybe not vs light. Have you considder making a new spell for the immortal? Some mobile spell or something? If someone has an idea for some kind of ability, I am ofc willing to consider it. But I think it will be hard to invent an other kind of mobility spell, without making Blink 2.0. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
Immortals need to be countered ONLY by Marines/Ghosts if we want to force Terran to diversify his compositions. They have to crush Tanks with equal resources. Now, I do agree they should be relatively mobile units compared to how they are now, but I would not extend the range too much or Marines won't be able to get close enough to pick them off without a Zealot wall stopping them. I think very good speed BUT only range 5 will make the Immortals even more fun to micro than Dragoons, because they need to get closer to fire before backing away, but can use their Absorb ability to tank damage on approach and retreat. Then the additional range on Stalkers (make them up to Range 7 perhaps) will help differentiate that unit despite the similar mobility with faster Immortals. | ||
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