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@ Viper (again...)
I hear you saying that zerg need a flying spellcaster but I would like to hear some good arguments. Why does zerg need a flying spell-caster? Most spellcasters are on gorund and quite slow: (HT's, ghosts, infestors). Science vessel is the only flying spellcaster atm, but it is very slow and has an interesting interaction with scourge / scouts. I'm fine with bringing back the flying viper if someone can convince me why zerg really need it.
If we keep things as they are then infestors need a 3rd spell /ability. I have an idea for one that I think is rather good but there is no point discussing it if things get reverted back.
@ Nullifier usage
Let me emphasize Chrono's point. Nullifier is not a harasser, it is an army utility unit and it grants map vision. It is not a unit one should rush for, but rather get 2-3 in mid-game when ur done making observers from the robo to go with your army. You can figure out the rest for yourself  Please. Do not just make one right away, lose it, and stop trying to use it for the rest of the game. That's not really the testing I was looking for.
@ Protos air in general.
Protoss has many air units atm and two of them are rarely / never used. Scout and Tempest. Right off the bat, I think one of these has to go. They are both confusing as to roles and purpose. Scout is a strong AAAA spell-caster and the tempest is just kinda there right now. Let us say we scrap the tempest and keep the scout. What should be the role of the scout? Do protoss really need a unit just for killing capital ships? If I play PvT and my opponent goes battlecruisers I might as well just make more blink-stalkers? Same for PvP is my opponent goes for carriers (when does that happen?). Blink stalkers should deal fine with that as well.
Like Fen pointed out, protoss (and he plays protoss) does not really need reveltaion, since they have observers, pylons and null-wards atm. I do like the phase missile though, but maybe another unit should have it? May corsairs? They should probably have a nerfed version of it since they are faster. Or maybe move it to nullifier? I like the scout/corsair synergy vs zerg though. Corsairs to pick up and scouts to snipe off.
I am not saying that huge changes are incoming, just asking: Should we rework the scout? Should it's role change (or be more clearly defined)?
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On May 25 2013 14:59 Xiphias wrote:
@ Protoss air in general.
Protoss has many air units atm and two of them are rarely / never used. Scout and Tempest. Right off the bat, I think one of these has to go. They are both confusing as to roles and purpose. Scout is a strong AAAA spell-caster and the tempest is just kinda there right now. Let us say we scrap the tempest and keep the scout. What should be the role of the scout? Do protoss really need a unit just for killing capital ships? If I play PvT and my opponent goes battlecruisers I might as well just make more blink-stalkers? Same for PvP is my opponent goes for carriers (when does that happen?). Blink stalkers should deal fine with that as well.
Like Fen pointed out, protoss (and he plays protoss) does not really need reveltaion, since they have observers, pylons and null-wards atm. I do like the phase missile though, but maybe another unit should have it? May corsairs? They should probably have a nerfed version of it since they are faster. Or maybe move it to nullifier? I like the scout/corsair synergy vs zerg though. Corsairs to pick up and scouts to snipe off.
I am not saying that huge changes are incoming, just asking: Should we rework the scout? Should it's role change (or be more clearly defined)?
And the part about the stalker is kinda my point about that we havn't got around to making powerful Warships. Ill repeat *my* philosophy for the capital ships. They are powerful bulky units, that can be beaten, but not with the units you kill all the other stuff with
I will say this, the design of the stalker have always been dodgy to me. Maximum utility with insane mobility, which due to the laws of hybrid tax means that in SC2 it is being beaten by close to anything that can reach it. So to get to the point i don't like the idea of a stalker that can beat these capital ships. Softcounter them sure, but the battles should be rough enough to the point where you consider changing to air the second you see them.
In SC2 the only units that really accomblish that is the Collosus and the Brood lord. Now i know that neither of those units will be added to Starbow, but it kinda gives us a power scale for just how strong we need to make the other capital ships to be a treat to stalkers....
or we could nerf the stalkers.
It is a dangerous path given how core the stalkers is for protoss, but what would it do if we removed their armored damage bonus? Starbow have very few armored T1-2 units of notice. When it comes to dealing with say Siege tanks you always wanna blink in an mass and just focus the tanks down ASAP which causes massive overkill. It is not like it is a massive change either, it is like 2 damage. Also the option is there to split its attack into 2 missiles making them more affected by the armor of capital ships, but not so much against anything else.
The one unit of concern could be the Ultralisk but again, really really high tech unit, do we really want Stalkers to be the Ultimate answer to this? Besides i got some other ideas, if it turns out to be an issue.
So yea some relativly simple changes to bring down the counterrange of Stalkers slightly.
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@Why does Terran need an anti-air unit, and why does Zerg need a flying spellcaster?
Zerg does not need a flying caster.
Terran does not need a flying anti air unit.
Protoss does not need a melee unit.
No race need to have ranged attackers, siege units, cloaked units or flying units at all.
The game can be designed anyways, and still be good and fun. Warcraft 1 was still fun. It had no flying or cloaked units for example.
BUT the game would feel poorer without flying casters, siege units, cloaked units, anti-air units etc...
Why?
By dividing units into roles and giving them unique strengths and traits, we add diversity to the game.
It adds more potential interactions between units.
It adds more potential for tactics and strategies.
It adds more reasons to control both the air and ground.
It adds more interesting use of maps and terrain.
Do I really need to continue this list?
Yes, units can still be unique even if all units are ground units.
But by using variables such as ground, air, range, melee, siege, cloaked, burrowed, spells, energy, life, speed, damage, terrain, abilities, sight, specialized attacks and much much more, we get potential for more design area... All of this can be combined to create interesting and diverse stuff, which leads to a more dynamic and fun gameplay.
By NOT using those variables, we end up with units that overlap or feel very similiar in many areas. And it will feel empty.
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Let me emphasize Chrono's point. Nullifier is not a harasser, it is an army utility unit and it grants map vision. It is not a unit one should rush for, but rather get 2-3 in mid-game when ur done making observers from the robo to go with your army
Can we agree that Nullifier should be a unit that you can get 2-3 off while on 2 bases/early 3 bases (aka early midgame)? That was the example I brought up in my earlister post. The problem with the Nullifier is that its attack is terrible compared to its cost and I think both of its wards have more lategame utility than early midgame utility. This means that getting 2-3 in the early midgame will almost always be suboptimal. My suggestion was a groundbased Nullifier, as this will allow us to keep the same wards abilities in the game (as they look like lots of fun and have great visuals), but buffs its damage instead.
Their main purpose is not to harrass. It isn't even to provide map vision (though we didn't realize just how solid protoss is in that area until we added the nullifier). The nullifier is meant to give protoss a way of stalling or posing a threat to large armies in the mid-late game without physically having their whole army there.
But its main purpose can't IMO be map vision when the wards cost 50 energies and a Nullifier is so expensive. IMO the "energy cost/price of building a Nullifier"-ratio needs be reduced very significantly in order to accomplish that. Right now I think the wards work as something you have just in front of your army (they work as a "spellcaster" in that regard), so you can't be "spewy" with them unlike Spider Mines.
While I believe the "spell-caster"-role shouldn't be completely removed, it shouldn't be its primary function. Therefore my ground- suggestion is to reduce the cost of the Nulifier so the ratio comes down and buffing its damage vs light to give it purpose after it has used its energy. Unlike the Vulture, however, you can always escape with the Nullifier due to Rift which will be a dangerous combination in the hands of a good player.
Protoss has many air units atm and two of them are rarely / never used. Scout and Tempest. Right off the bat, I think one of these has to go. They are both confusing as to roles and purpose. Scout is a strong AAAA spell-caster and the tempest is just kinda there right now. Let us say we scrap the tempest and keep the scout. What should be the role of the scout? Do protoss really need a unit just for killing capital ships? If I play PvT and my opponent goes battlecruisers I might as well just make more blink-stalkers? Same for PvP is my opponent goes for carriers (when does that happen?). Blink stalkers should deal fine with that as well.
I think Scout can stay if;
1) It becomes more interesting to use in the early midgame/midgame
2) It can only beat tier 3 capital ships if you have good micro (a-movin'g capital ships isn't fun).
Sumadin does have a point that stalkers shouldn't beat tier 3 capital ships. Capital ships should require a reaction from the opponent so Scout should probably stay in the game. However, feedback (which I know is called something else in Starbow) could use a small "uncertainity-tweak" so that BC's vs Scouts became slightly more micro-oriented rather than just "click-and I win"-oriented.
To create more utility in the midgame, the Nulifier as a ground unit, means that the Scout now can become the fast flying air-harass oriented unit intestead. I personally feel like these two changes (Nullifier and Scout) would solve the current issues with overlapping units which confuse players and at the same time give more utility earlier on in the game to units that are fun to use.
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On May 25 2013 18:06 Kabel wrote:
@Why does Terran need an anti-air unit, and why does Zerg need a flying spellcaster?
Zerg does not need a flying caster.
Terran does not need a flying anti air unit.
Protoss does not need a melee unit.
No race need to have ranged attackers, siege units, cloaked units or flying units at all.
The game can be designed anyways, and still be good and fun. Warcraft 1 was still fun. It had no flying or cloaked units for example.
BUT the game would feel poorer without flying casters, siege units, cloaked units, anti-air units etc...
Why?
By dividing units into roles and giving them unique strengths and traits, we add diversity to the game.
It adds more potential interactions between units.
It adds more potential for tactics and strategies.
It adds more reasons to control both the air and ground.
It adds more interesting use of maps and terrain.
Do I really need to continue this list?
Yes, units can still be unique even if all units are ground units.
But by using variables such as ground, air, range, melee, siege, cloaked, burrowed, spells, energy, life, speed, damage, terrain, abilities, sight, specialized attacks and much much more, we get potential for more design area... All of this can be combined to create interesting and diverse stuff, which leads to a more dynamic and fun gameplay.
By NOT using those variables, we end up with units that overlap or feel very similiar in many areas. And it will feel empty.
I don't think you specifically adressing air spellcasters here. Rather your talking about the dynamic Air combat units creates when they fight against ground units, for instance carriers vs goliaths where carriers can abuse the terrain.
However, most spellcasters doesn't really have spells which allow them to take advantage of their air mobility (eraser is the only thing that comes to my mind), and neither Dark Swarm nor any redesign of Frenzy would seem to work significantly different depending on whether they were cast by a Viper or a Defiler.
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Hider.
I'm not gonna write a monster post and explain this further.
If you don't get my point, neither from the above post or the big post I made yesterday, or you do not see the problems I highlight, well.. ok. Then you have reached a different conclusion and you have a different view on the matter. I am not here to convince anyone. I just share what I think is important to consider when making changes. If you or others do not see it, nor agrees with it. Fine. There is not much more I can do since I do not make the patches anymore. I will see if I "return" to make patches when school is over.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
@ Viper (again...)
viper idea is fun and fresh, while festor is more like defiler-replacer
i'd like to see viper at t2 and defiler at t3
so viper may have cost like 75-150 or 75-125 and abilities like abduct, frenzy and that -50 attack speed fungal
and defiler should have plague/cloud/consume (good old one)
reasons -
1) no race have t2 mid-level flying caster
2) current infestor is boring
3) t3 viper is unbalanced (ur enemy have antiair - zerg dead, ur enemy doesnt have anti-air - zerg wins)
4) defiler and infestor are too similar
@ Nullifier usage
well i was able to defend with his abilities, but if its an army utility unit then it should have an utility
- nullifier have very low dps, so it acts like a caster. Well
- nullifier have drone, which is unnesessary to me cuz of pylons over all map, probes and obses. drone doesnt block expansions, i dont need to know if my enemy have a 4th or 5th, i want to deny and delay them. so it's always better to place zealot or pylo, but not drone
- drone have dmg ability, which is unnesessary, i already have storms, they're much more stable as dmg-dealers
so basically its anti-armor close-range version of storm
- drone have strange ability that disallows attacks inside-out. well, im afraid of using it just because i could hurt my own engage, may be this is good one.
and also nullifier blocks my reaver/prism/obs production, which is not good at all.
well, i highly dont like this unit, but i can give it a try
@ Protos air in general.
I am not saying that huge changes are incoming, just asking: Should we rework the scout? Should it's role change (or be more clearly defined)?
remove both of them and move nullifier to stargate ^^
and buff feedback missilies, or use feedleach and give it to arbiter
and my suggestion about you and Kabel ^_^
@ Kabel
listen to him, he is saying very good and clever things, i really like his vision
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On May 25 2013 19:37 Kabel wrote:
Hider.
I'm not gonna write a monster post and explain this further.
If you don't get my point, neither from the above post or the big post I made yesterday, or you do not see the problems I highlight, well.. ok. Then you have reached a different conclusion and you have a different view on the matter. I am not here to convince anyone. I just share what I think is important to consider when making changes. If you or others do not see it, nor agrees with it. Fine. There is not much more I can do since I do not make the patches anymore. I will see if I "return" when school is over.
But aren't you arguing why the Viper/defiler should be an ai-runit? Or are you talking more about general principles?
no race have t2 mid-level flying caster
But I think air-spellcasters will almost always be somewhat problematic with smartcasting. Science Vessels for instance are quite easy too, and it has led to "overbuffing" the movement speed of scourges as a consequence, which has led to other unintended consequences. Scout is another problamtic spellcaster, the Nullifier isn't working well enough currently either and the Sc2-raven is IMO quite boring.
So so far, it's not like we have exactly great experiences with air spellcasters. The easy (uncreative) solution is IMO to make units which have powerful AOE abilities ground-units. As air units they will always have an easy time landing their abilities and the opponent will need to have other units specifically designed to counter the air spellcasters which will lead to other unintended consequences. This definitely isn't as simplific as you make it out to be.
But if the Viper stays and Defiler replaces Infestor as you suggest then we could give Defiler Dark Swarm and plague.
The Viper on the other hand could receive Frenzy and the slow version of Fungal growth. However, that will probably make the Viper quite boring. So the question is, how do we give the Viper a non-aoe/weak AOE ability which is fun to use at the same time? (because strong AOE's should IMO be to difficult use efficiently).
But we probably should wait with reintroducing the Defiler, and instead think of various other ways we can "fix" the Viper. Kabel's suggestion with the "stand-still" Viper might be worth considering. My only reluctancy is based on whether it will be fun "to micro" the Viper by not moving it at all.
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Further thoughts on the Viper.
I guess the problem is how its vulnerbility differs completely vs terran and protoss.
Versus 7 range stalkers which prioritizes attacking ground units over the viper, the dynamic can definitely be quite interesting by adjusting either the HP or the range of Dark Swarm.
However, agaisnt 9 range Goliath's that automitcally targets the Viper, this isn't possible, as Goliaths vs Vipers will always be a numbers game.
So assuming Viper keeps Dark Swarm, how can we create uncertainty in both ZvP and ZvT while maintaining the "fun-to-use" aspect of the ability?
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On May 25 2013 20:05 Hider wrote:
So the question is, how do we give the Viper a non-aoe/weak AOE ability which is fun to use at the same time? (because strong AOE's should IMO be to difficult use efficiently).
once upon a time i've read a post here about balancing, and one of main points there was "strong shouldn't be difficult to use"
it was a big post and it blew my mind, because with good arguments it changes me from thinking as you now to completely different way
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I like the idea of t2 Viper and t3 Defiler - Its a nice sidestep from the other approaches we have had to this problem.
Defiler with plague and DS will be a great asset to the zerg army, and have real weaknesses and tradeoffs between spells. By making the Viper tier 2 we remove the problem of having overlapping roles with the Infestor. As for spells, Abduct and Fungal seems like obvious choises. Good old spawn broodlings could maybe make a reentry as a 3rd spell (I dislike Frenzy too). This will make the Viper very harass oriented and good for catching the opponent off guard, but with only little utility in real battles.
I have said a lot about the Scout, but the main thing it needs is focus as Xiphias also pointed out. Here is my version of the Scout as I see it:
Good acceleration and speed (very slightly slower than a normal "fast" air unit like the Corsair or Banshee). Good to high health with low shields and low/no base armor. High damage with no bonusses to air (or at least only slight bonus to armored) and low attack speed. Fast low damage attack versus ground with small bonus to armored. Low range (4) but with upgrade at fleat beacon: "Psionic targetting" - When the Scout hits an enemy unit it gains +3 range versus this unit for 5 seconds (10 second cooldown). Costs ~200/100 and has a relatively fast build time for its cost.
Basically the role of this unit is to be air supiriority fighter. It has the firepower to kill any single unit it can catch, and an ability to function as a reverse concussive shell - help chasing by buffing your units, not debuffing the enemy. No spells (can add feedback if needed), no nonesense. Works best as a drop deterrent, anti-capital fighter or for sniping important enemy air. Can also function as a main army unit with its good health and damage output, but looses out to the corsair once battles gets larger.
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once upon a time i've read a post here about balancing, and one of main points there was "strong shouldn't be difficult to use"
it was a big post and it blew my mind, because with good arguments it changes me from thinking as you now to completely different way
I think that post probably was arguing that abilities should be easy to use, difficult to master. Not that strong abilities should be easy to use optimally.
I like the idea of t2 Viper and t3 Defiler - Its a nice sidestep from the other approaches we have had to this problem.
Defiler with plague and DS will be a great asset to the zerg army, and have real weaknesses and tradeoffs between spells. By making the Viper tier 2 we remove the problem of having overlapping roles with the Infestor. As for spells, Abduct and Fungal seems like obvious choises. Good old spawn broodlings could maybe make a reentry as a 3rd spell (I dislike Frenzy too). This will make the Viper very harass oriented and good for catching the opponent off guard, but with only little utility in real battles.
I have said a lot about the Scout, but the main thing it needs is focus as Xiphias also pointed out. Here is my version of the Scout as I see it:
Good acceleration and speed (very slightly slower than a normal "fast" air unit like the Corsair or Banshee). Good to high health with low shields and low/no base armor. High damage with no bonusses to air (or at least only slight bonus to armored) and low attack speed. Fast low damage attack versus ground with small bonus to armored. Low range (4) but with upgrade at fleat beacon: "Psionic targetting" - When the Scout hits an enemy unit it gains +3 range versus this unit for 5 seconds (10 second cooldown). Costs ~200/100 and has a relatively fast build time for its cost.
Basically the role of this unit is to be air supiriority fighter. It has the firepower to kill any single unit it can catch, and an ability to function as a reverse concussive shell - help chasing by buffing your units, not debuffing the enemy. No spells (can add feedback if needed), no nonesense. Works best as a drop deterrent, anti-capital fighter or for sniping important enemy air. Can also function as a main army unit with its good health and damage output, but looses out to the corsair once battles gets larger.
I probably wouldn't call that Viper for a harass unit. But it does have utility outside big battles which IMO is very important. I guess this could work (its definitely one of the "cleaner solutions" presented so far), however it would imply quite a significant cost reduction of the Viper.
Regarding Scout - I am not sure if I like the idea of having a unit that only has utility outside battles through countering drops/air harass. Ok the scourge does that, but it has this very interestin suicidal moment. I don't see why the Scout would be interesting with a "normal attack".
Kabel likes to design things a certain way, unfortunately all of these ideas at once are very confusing. The discussion is supposed to help the developers, but december and xiphias are new and inexperienced to developing, they may have bit off a bit more than they can chew, and as we can see, they were swayed a little bit easily by a rather rash developmental idea.
You are spitting a lot of ideas in their face, slow down, take a chill pill, make less monster posts and let them respond. I don't like any of the solutions you guys are putting forth, but that doesn't mean they don't make some sense, however all of these ideas kinda don't need to be tested, and right now it is like you won't quit on the changes, monster posts take a lot of time to make, so the one with the monster posts will win, cause they will dominate discussion.
I disagree, I think long discussions with lots of arguments with people that have different opinions is the best way to bring Starbow forward. But that doesn't imply that we should make rapid changes, if you read my most recent post I actually stated that we shouldn't make a big change to the Viper ASAP - rather we should discuss potential solutions and use the Defiler reversion as a plan B.
Secondly I am only discussing two things currently. The Viper/Defiler/infestor changes and Scout/Nullifier situation. So actually I am just discussing two issues at the time. I don't think that is overdoing anything. Actually I have other subjects I want to discuss, but I am waiting to bring them up untill we get a clarification on these two issues.
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@ Zerg spellcasters.
I have provided wrong information and for that I am sorry. Plague has NOT been moved to the defiler. Me and Dec talked about it but it was never done. The only change that has been made to the zerg spell line-up is that the Viper is now on the ground and has unit-consume instead of building consume. Its HP is the same as the BW defiler and not as the Viper, but it costs 100/150 since SB economy is different from BW economy (BW defiler was 50/150). So there are no changes to the spells themselves! THESE ARE NOT NEW CHANGES, JUST CLARIFYING EARLIER ONES.
Now, let me repeat myself for the last time. Please try out the defiler. I want it tested BEFORE I hear why it should be reverted to the Viper. I know it is bad development to just throw stuff out there and test it without thinking too much. But now we have been thinking and we still want to keep it unless someone can show me a replay or point of an obvious design flaw. And for that, we need testing.
We have a lot of ideas regarding many areas, but we will try and implement as few changes as possible. We do not want to give the impression that a lot of changes are needed to make Starbow good. It is quite good as it is. We have decided to focus on design and not numbers too much (but a little).
@ Protoss air.
The Scout revelation will probably be removed as the nullifier wards provides for vision. There are simply too many "observers" for protoss atm. The scout itself will probably not be reworked much anytime soon, but feel free to throw out more ideas if you have any. Just because we do not respond to every idea does not mean we do not read and discuss them internally.
@ Capital ships.
I don't mind basic unit (ish) being able to counter capital ships (stalkers / goliath) and here is why: (Dec feels the same way about this one). It still forces an reaction from your opponent, which again can be countered. If you have to make a stupid amount of goliath and your opponent do not commit to carriers, but quickly switches back to stalker / zealot then he has tricked you and you will be in an unfavorable situation. Same with BC's and stalkers. Sure Stalkers counters BC's but not when they are protected by tanks. BC's are actually too easily countered imo atm though and might need a number change to be viable, but that's a little off topic.
That paragraph was just for informing you of our opinion on the matter and I hope it does not blow up into a discussion.
Most important thing in this post: Try new things! Especially the Defiler.
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I don't mind basic unit (ish) being able to counter capital ships (stalkers / goliath) and here is why: (Dec feels the same way about this one). It still forces an reaction from your opponent, which again can be countered. If you have to make a stupid amount of goliath and your opponent do not commit to carriers, but quickly switches back to stalker / zealot then he has tricked you and you will be in an unfavorable situation. Same with BC's and stalkers. Sure Stalkers counters BC's but not when they are protected by tanks. BC's are actually too easily countered imo atm though and might need a number change to be viable, but that's a little off topic.
Well, I think there needs to be an advantage of getting BC's late game compared to getting more tanks instead.
That advantage could be to force an ineffiicent vs. tank composition from the opponent.
And btw, have you tried scout vs BC in the unit tester? Don't you feel that this is just a simple situations of one unit hard-countering another unit without any interesting dynamic?
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@Defiler/Infestor
Thanks for the clarification. I thought the Infestor lacked a spell now. I will try to get online tomorrow and play some.
Let me just clearify: I do think it can be good to let Dark Swarm be on a ground unit. So I have nothing against the Defiler.
I just do not like that there are 3 ground spellcasters for Zerg and no flying one.
The Queen/Infestor/Defiler:
- They are at the same size, have almost the same speed and same type of movement.
- They are countered by the same type of units. (A Zealot can be used vs them all.)
- They are useful in the same type of terrain. They are also useless in the same type of terrain.
Kinda as if the Science Vessel became a ground unit with the same speed and size as the Ghost. It would work, but it would feel strange and they would overlap... Despite if they have different spells! Too many similar units lead to a more static gameplay.
But if you manage to diverse the Zerg casters from each other, then I will not nag you more about it. ^^
Ps. Is it just me, or does the Defiler have no skin? Just a grey model?
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On May 26 2013 00:27 Hider wrote:
Regarding Scout - I am not sure if I like the idea of having a unit that only has utility outside battles through countering drops/air harass. Ok the scourge does that, but it has this very interestin suicidal moment. I don't see why the Scout would be interesting with a "normal attack".
Well, the Scout will have even better synergy with Corsairs (Heavy burst attacks for lifted units). It will also be the best unit for countering Science vessels, Arbiters or Vipers (if the Viper gets back in), and can possibly supplement Corsairs in Mutalisk defence. By making them slightly cheaper and faster to build we would also make them good at Overlord hunting, and with a decent (not great) AtG attack they can harass on their own as well.
So I don't see how they have no utility outside battles.
What I envisioned was to remove all the gimmicky spells from the Scout and make it a well balanced unit with some clear strengths and weaknesses based on its stats alone. Its main focus is combat after all. After the base unit is well designed we can add some abilities to make it more interesting if needed.
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On May 26 2013 06:29 Xiphias wrote:
@ Protoss air.
The Scout revelation will probably be removed as the nullifier wards provides for vision. There are simply too many "observers" for protoss atm. The scout itself will probably not be reworked much anytime soon, but feel free to throw out more ideas if you have any. Just because we do not respond to every idea does not mean we do not read and discuss them internally.
@ Capital ships.
I don't mind basic unit (ish) being able to counter capital ships (stalkers / goliath) and here is why: (Dec feels the same way about this one). It still forces an reaction from your opponent, which again can be countered. If you have to make a stupid amount of goliath and your opponent do not commit to carriers, but quickly switches back to stalker / zealot then he has tricked you and you will be in an unfavorable situation. Same with BC's and stalkers. Sure Stalkers counters BC's but not when they are protected by tanks. BC's are actually too easily countered imo atm though and might need a number change to be viable, but that's a little off topic.
That paragraph was just for informing you of our opinion on the matter and I hope it does not blow up into a discussion.
Most important thing in this post: Try new things! Especially the Defiler.
First of all thanks for your responce, and it is good to know your stance.
If you are going to remove Revelation, then i think you might aswell take the feedback missiles and adjust the combat stats of the scout to be more focused on straight forward battle. There seems to be an overload of abilities on protoss units right now anyway. It could be moved to the arbiter or just have HTs regain feedback.
Like it is the case with alot of things my thoughts about Stalkers is all about scale. When i say stalkers shouldn't counter BC it shouldn't mean that a single BC could just fly straight into a bunch of stalkers and kill them all. Rather like everything in the lategame it comes down to supply efficiancy. And we are already close to that goal. 3 stalkers Unmicroed can't beat a Single Starbow BC. Like everything about the stalker this is not something that scales well with numbers and thus once there is 5 or more BCs vs 15 Stalkers the tides actually turn quite in the favor of BCs and the extreme of 200 supply of BCs vs 200 supply of Stalkers is not even remotely close.
Still all of this assumes even battles and upgrades which will rarely be the case in the actual game. As we know Stalkers still have a somewhat easy time overwhelming a BC transition in the making. However with the above example in mind, i actually think it is rather small changes needed to reach a compromise between initially making stalkers to deal with the early BCs and switching into a scout transition if the numbers of BCs starts getting too high.
One thing to look at for the BCs could be the Upgrades. If Vikings are going to stay a mech unit(I hope not really), then nothing will actually carry the worth of these upgrades and thus they could really be made cheaper and potentially faster. Or we could do a Blizzard and merge the Air and Mech armor upgrades.
I will say this through. The problem of being too easy to counter is hardly a problem unique to BCs. If you are making notes on future buffing of the Battlecruiser, then i would suggest saving it for a "Capital ship Revamp/Massbuff".because being countered too easily seems to be the common for most capital ships, but i am not sure how much tweaking each capital ship would need. It would be of no surprise to me if BCs needed the least tweaking through.
Alright 1 AM... enough discussion for now.
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I'm going to lay out some of my thoughts on these matters.
Xiphias is pretty much the main developer as far as what we decide to implement, but we usually talk for hours at a time before settling on them. We also tend to agree on most things, so feedback from the forum is valued.
Here is my defense for the controversial decisions, and also my vision for how certain aspects should be handled (may differ from xiphias, treat it as just my opinnion not cold hard fact for what will happen to the mod. We're trying to be conservative in the regard).
@Deflier and Z spell lineup
Exactly as Xiphias said.
The only major change was that it was moved to the ground.
The big question is what was nice about it being in the air? Its most critical spell was dark swarm which didn't synergize with it very well. The main criticism seems to be now that most Z casters are the same.
Here is my ideal vision for Z casters.
Infestor is in the sneaky harasser role. Right now it is basically a combat caster at lair tech, so often times Z doesn't even bother teching to Hive to get its supposed battle caster.
Plague fits the infestor role perfectly!!! As smile zerg said, its a pre battle spell.
Fungle Growth I honestly wouldn't mind see getting swapped over to Deflier, as its a mid combat spell.
As for movement, its primary tactic is burrowed movement. Xiphias has an idea I'd love to see in use, all units on top of the infestor take 5 damage a second. Sort of like eraser. Even better, plague the scvs (risks an opponent seeing it) and then patrol under workers for really fast harass. I loved infested terran drops for sneaky harass in SC2, but disliked how it supplemented army and basically just killed bases by itself. This could fit this niche.
Neural Parasite could be reworked or another spell put into its place. Then you'd have a sneaky sabatuer, harasser infestor.
Contrasts this with the tier 3 defiler. It sieges bases, it supports the army, it lets your swarm of zerglings and lurkers crush your opponent. It is a frail battle caster that you want supporting the army and making engagements more interesting. Being on the ground in this aspect is much more interesting.
Lastly I'd want to see this unit have something more interesting than frenzy. Perhaps a utility spell. Frenzy is so boring, it only makes battles shorter, while Zerg extremely high dps already. The point is that Z wants to get up close to its enemies, flank and cut off retreat paths.
The queen I don't see being anything like either of these 2, being creep spread, macro, base defense, and harassment defense. I'm going to be honest, I don't like the queen (nor the pf) simply because it feels like such thoughtless defense. At least they can be taken out pretty easily with a squad of marines or a dt.
As for current development direction: we want to see the ground deflier in action. If its really that weird we'll revert it. We won't mess with the Z caster line up too much since Starbow is already so well rounded for Z.
@Capital Ships
I dislike scouts simply hard countering BC's and Carriers. Its boring. In TvP you can actually catch your opponent trying to be wayyyyy too effective vs zealots and archons by tech switching (risky but exciting). Carriers are extremely interesting vs goliaths because of how mobile they are vs the terrain bound goliath. The transition is worth it.
This same relationship can happen vice versa. P generally wants to have tons and tons of zealot archon vs a mech, and only a helping of stalkers to sweep mines and clean up vultures. BC's simply suck vs these small groups of ever present stalkers. They have no way of fighting against their maneuverability. Carriers can. It is the BC that is a failure in this regard here. You need range and maneuverability to exploit terrain. That is the entire advantage of being an air unit (besides the obvious, zealots can't shoot up). If we did buff BC attack damage to make it more efficient vs stalkers, I don't think it would lead to interesting game play. Perhaps a BC that can warp a short distance to counter blink, and a faster recharging lower damage yamato.
As for actual development in this, again we are being pretty conservative. No changes unless people really want to see something in this regard. Like, everyone ahaha.
@Protoss air
Starting with actual development: Tempest will likely get removed. The carrier is simply better and more interesting. Revelation might get replaced or straight up removed.
I really like having feedback missile on its own dedicated platform.
I like the scout being something protoss can build to shut down drops.
It performs admirably in that regard.
I do agree that revelation is simply a boring spell though.
I actually think it'd be a fine unit by itself in its current state (minus hard countering massive units) without revelation.
Thank you for reading and your time.
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Come to think about it adjusting Yamato may not sound that bad an idea at all. It is 300 damage, you can count on one hand which units survives that. Archons(60 health left  ), Ultralisks (100 Health left), Carriers(150 Health left) and other Battlecruisers(300 health left  ). Yea you didn't even need your thumb for that. So it may just be slightly overkill.
It may just be that it doesn't synergise very well in Starbow. In SC2 there are 2 more units that survives the blast, and some of the other units are insanely high priority targets(Collosus). Plus the Battlecruisers attack is so affected by armor that it can't do much else vs some of the units that survives. It is a compensation.
In Starbow alot of this have already been fixed. The BCs attack is already adjusted to work better even against higher armored target, even through the highest armored target, the ultralisk, have less health and terrans are less afraid of that in Starbow anyway due to stronger Siege tanks.
Another thing to note, it is not really Stalkers that Stops BCs in SC2 and anyone who tries is going to learn the might of mass marine support. What truly stops it is the high templar which feedbacks the BCs disabling Yamato and dealing massive damage then proceeds to storm the incoming Marine support.
The feedback missiles through have much less of an edge against Yamato and that might bring in intresting gameplay if Yamato was Updated to be more relevant vs the Starbow protoss army. Basicly you don't get the Scouts because they Hardcounter BCs in close battle(Because they really don't), you get them because you need to shut down Yamato, and Blink micro can only do that much in this regard.
The one issue through is that Yamato can't be made too dependant on being countered like that because Zerg have no energy drainers, something to note while you make adjustment for the Zerg caster Lineup.
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EPT
