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@ Viper Vs Defiler
This was a "quick fix" and it might get reverted. Here are the problem(s?) with the air Viper as I see it.
1. Frenzy is a bad spell. It is very much like Dark Swarm (it makes your army better) but not as effective and more boring. Hence you will never spend your Viper/Defiler energy on frenzy if you can cast Dark Swarm instead (there are few exceptions to this, but not enough). Giving Viper/Defiler plauge makes it more interesting, as you sometimes want to cast DS, and other times plauge. Also, plauge is much more usefull in late-game than early-game.
2. Casting Dark Swarm might be too "easy" for a flying unit. One of the fun plays in BW was the fact that Dark Swarm was on a ground unit. It was easy to try to kill (it had to be protected) but it could protect itself with a dark swarm, but then it would be poorly placed. This point seems to be more contreversial. Some say it's a problem, others don't. I'm courious to try the ground defiler out for now and see if there is a positive change in game dynamics.
3. Infestor has burrow but few uses of it. Sure it can now cast NP while burrowed but that's kinda like getting 5 dt's ("I HOPE he does not scan now" *crossing fingers*). I would like to see the infestor as more of an infiltrator. This is what blizzard had in mind with the infested terrans. You can burrow and cast them into oppodents mineral lines. Problem is, ofc, that "free" units creates a boring late-game which just boils down to how many infestors you can get. That's why I want us to try to think of a new spell which kinda works like infested terrans in the way that you can burow behind enemy lines and harass / keep your oppodent at bay, but without the free units part if possible.
Hope this was clearifying. Lastly, we need more players.... I want to go more PR, but I want to nail down all the units first. I don't mind telling people this is beta mode and changes will occur, but changing entire units might be too much after we post about this everywhere. I have gotten premission to make a Starbow post in SC2 general forum, the timing will be important.
@ Ground nullifiers
Might happen. I agree with HideR, I want more protoss opinions first. (I should play more with it myself, but I go to bed early, and play earlier than most of you, so I rarley find many online....)
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On May 24 2013 16:56 Xiphias wrote:
@ Viper Vs Defiler
This was a "quick fix" and it might get reverted. Here are the problem(s?) with the air Viper as I see it.
1. Frenzy is a bad spell. It is very much like Dark Swarm (it makes your army better) but not as effective and more boring. Hence you will never spend your Viper/Defiler energy on frenzy if you can cast Dark Swarm instead (there are few exceptions to this, but not enough). Giving Viper/Defiler plauge makes it more interesting, as you sometimes want to cast DS, and other times plauge. Also, plauge is much more usefull in late-game than early-game.
2. Casting Dark Swarm might be too "easy" for a flying unit. One of the fun plays in BW was the fact that Dark Swarm was on a ground unit. It was easy to try to kill (it had to be protected) but it could protect itself with a dark swarm, but then it would be poorly placed. This point seems to be more contreversial. Some say it's a problem, others don't. I'm courious to try the ground defiler out for now and see if there is a positive change in game dynamics.
3. Infestor has burrow but few uses of it. Sure it can now cast NP while burrowed but that's kinda like getting 5 dt's ("I HOPE he does not scan now" *crossing fingers*). I would like to see the infestor as more of an infiltrator. This is what blizzard had in mind with the infested terrans. You can burrow and cast them into oppodents mineral lines. Problem is, ofc, that "free" units creates a boring late-game which just boils down to how many infestors you can get. That's why I want us to try to think of a new spell which kinda works like infested terrans in the way that you can burow behind enemy lines and harass / keep your oppodent at bay, but without the free units part if possible.
Hope this was clearifying. Lastly, we need more players.... I want to go more PR, but I want to nail down all the units first. I don't mind telling people this is beta mode and changes will occur, but changing entire units might be too much after we post about this everywhere. I have gotten premission to make a Starbow post in SC2 general forum, the timing will be important.
@ Ground nullifiers
Might happen. I agree with HideR, I want more protoss opinions first. (I should play more with it myself, but I go to bed early, and play earlier than most of you, so I rarley find many online....)
I kinda just realized why we never can balance the Nullifier so it becomes a viable unit to build 2-4 of in the early mid-game. With a banshee you can get a couple of them on 2 bases and due to their high DPS against workers, it forces the opponent to leave units at his bases in order to defend against them, which means he can't just go and kill if you try and take a 3rd.
On the other hand, the Nullifier needs a lower DPS as it has utility besides harass (unlike banshee). But this means that you don't really need more than a queens, a couple of marines, 2 stalkers (+reinforcements) or something like that at home in order to defend against the Nullifier, which means that when opening with Nullifier you are making a huge gamble (I don't think 12 damage is enough to make the opponent fear the Nullifier, and rightly so, because I don't believe a flying spellcaster should have significant damage output).
This is basically why I think Nullifier needs to be a ground-unit, because as a ground unit its DPS/costs can be buffed as it can't circumvent walloffs for instance. The Nullifier as an air-unit should be not be capable of 2-3 shotting workers or beating a significant number of marines. For instance lets assume that in order for the opponent to "fear" the Nullifier and leave a noticeable amount of units at home to defend against them, the Nullifiers damage needs to be 12 + 13 vs light (so it two shots workers), however it should be easy to see that such a change will make it OP vs marines while stalkers still hard counter them.
The Nullifier as a ground unit, however, can actually be given stats so it is capable of killing workers and units such as stalkers and marines relatively fast without being overpowered.
Instead, this leaves the space open for the Scout to be the "banshee/wraith"-type of unit. If you want to harass your opponents base in the early midgame and force him to leave units at home so he can't just counterattack you --> Open up with scout on 2 bases.
Nullifier as a ground unit on 2 bases will work like this: You set up a couple of wards. You see the opponent moves out --> You try to counterattack --> You see that he has walled of his natural so you can't harass --> You deny reinforcements for a bit --> You bring the Nullifier back home in order to defend against his attack (still requires good micro though).
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@Xiphias and December
Why do you use so complicated solutions to problems?
First Terran air got completely reworked...
Now Zerg spellcasters will be reworked...
In most cases there is an easy solution to fix what is identified as a problem.
Ok, lets assume that Dark Swarm is "too easy" to cast, as Hider describes it. What can be done to change that?
- Make it a channeled spell. The Viper stands still as long as the Dark Swarm lasts. If it is killed, the effect is canceled.
- Give Dark Swarm a shorter cast range. It is more risky to get close to the enemy positions.
- Make Viper more fragile in terms of HP.
- Give Terran and Protoss ways to interact with the Viper before it gets into position. For example faster moving Vikings with their normal attack, faster Scouts with better Phase Missiles to destroy energy, new spell to the Nullifier, new spell on the Ghost or whatever...
If Frenzy is a lame spell, lets identify what makes it so. After all, it is basically an AoE-Stimpack. And Stimpack is fun on Marines... Is there a small change that can be done to Frenzy to make it more interesting?
- It increases attack and move speed of units in a group by X%, but it also increases damage taken by X%. In this way it might even be useful on enemy units in certain situations.
- Replace it with Abduct (or something similar)
If you continue to rework things so heavily, I fear that Starbow will go backwards. Every new large change requires more playtesting, thinking, tweaking and work in the editor.
Why not focus on filling the empty spaces in the game? Like the new Nullifier, the new Ghost etc.
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I've started editing a little bit at
http://starbow.wikia.com
Feel free to contribute. All you need is to have an account and the Starbow MOD file (open online from the editor).
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Make dark swarm require 5 or 10 sec for casting. In this time creates the cloud "dark swarm" from 0 to its maximum aoe. If viper die while casting this ability, maintains the size of the dark swarm reached. Player can cancel dark swarm, but retains the dimensions prior to the cancellation. In this way it is easy to casting dark swarm, but opponent can be reduced (dark swarm) aoe effect destroying viper before completion. Zerg player can avoid losing the viper, canceling the dark swarm and running, thus obtaining the desired effect of the opponent (few dark swarm aoe) without losing the viper.
Edit: an excellent animation, would be to consume (buildings), changing the color from green to orange.
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On May 24 2013 18:41 Kabel wrote:
@Xiphias and December
Why do you use so complicated solutions to problems?
First Terran air got completely reworked...
Now Zerg spellcasters will be reworked...
In most cases there is an easy solution to fix what is identified as a problem.
Ok, lets assume that Dark Swarm is "too easy" to cast, as Hider describes it. What can be done to change that?
- Make it a channeled spell. The Viper stands still as long as the Dark Swarm lasts. If it is killed, the effect is canceled.
- Give Dark Swarm a shorter cast range. It is more risky to get close to the enemy positions.
- Make Viper more fragile in terms of HP.
- Give Terran and Protoss ways to interact with the Viper before it gets into position. For example faster moving Vikings with their normal attack, faster Scouts with better Phase Missiles to destroy energy, new spell to the Nullifier, new spell on the Ghost or whatever...
If Frenzy is a lame spell, lets identify what makes it so. After all, it is basically an AoE-Stimpack. And Stimpack is fun on Marines... Is there a small change that can be done to Frenzy to make it more interesting?
- It increases attack and move speed of units in a group by X%, but it also increases damage taken by X%. In this way it might even be useful on enemy units in certain situations.
- Replace it with Abduct (or something similar)
If you continue to rework things so heavily, I fear that Starbow will go backwards. Every new large change requires more playtesting, thinking, tweaking and work in the editor.
Why not focus on filling the empty spaces in the game? Like the new Nullifier, the new Ghost etc.
I actually think the easy solution is to go back to what we know worked pretty okay'ish in BW (the defiler). The difficult solution is to completely redesign Dark Swarm. I thought of lower range mysefl, but then I realized that it actually would incentivize deathball-play.
Imagine this: 3 goliaths still won't be able to counter a 2-3 range Viper.
However, 10 goliaths will be able to do it every time.
This means that there still isn't really any excitement. Its still all about numbers.
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No, it is not an easy solution to go back to something that worked in BW and mash it into Starbow now.
It will lead to even more redesign of other units since the entire context becomes changed.
Exactly what is the unsolvable problem with Viper that requires this kind of drastic solution?
I have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your post.
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Like I said. We are trying this out now, and we are eager to rewert it if it proves unfriutfull.
But I would like Kabel to make a longer (maybe not monster  ) post and explain why. I am also not 100 % sure that we are making things more complicated. The viking needed a redesign and all air-based ideas seemed to fall short imo. (Let's not bring that one up again unless its really important before we test this viking out more please...) and the nullifier is something we worked off and on for quite some time now.
This is the plan for the future in my head at least:
- "Land" new units and abilities like the nullifier and spells on ghost unitll all that is left is balancing numbers. I really hope this is possible and not too far away. Once the units / abilities are settled, we should try to do more "out-reach" and bring in more players to help balance the rest of the MOD.
I do wish to stay as true to Kabel's vision of Starbow as possible, so feel free to explain yourself. Your opinions should naturally weight more than others. We have no problem handing the MOD back to Kabel if he has more time in the sommer btw.
Also, it seems that you don't even need an account to edit stuff at the Starbow wikia. I can change that if needed but I doubt that will be needed anytime soon.
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The design and work process of Starbow
The fundamental question is: When is it worth to try something in the game?
After all, I recieved hundreds of ideas and yet I never tried them all.
Why?
Because it is too time consuming to try everything!
At what point can we tell if an idea works or does NOT work?
After 10 games? 100 games?
Played by 10 different players? 100 players?
Shall we try every different idea in this way?
The work of the designer is to use his/her judgement and evaluate all ideas, so we do not waste time trying everything. This is how I did it:
I filter every design decision through a couple of categories.
- What kind of potential interactions between units will be changed, improved or different?
- What will players now be able to do and NOT do with this design decision?
- How will this effect the race and the gameplay in a couple of different areas?
- Bla bla bla (I have a looong list ^^)
If the design decision holds in theory, then it is time to try it in reality. IF all the questions have been properly answered and the answear is overwhelmingly positive. ! ! ! !
Lets look at some earlier design decisions in the game:
- Matrix on Medics.. (JohnnyZergs idea?)
- Nerve Jammer on Vessel...
- Activation attack on PF... (Hider's idea.)
All of these felt great from the start, and still feel good and are great for the game. Only balance changes have been done.
We did not need to play 100 games to know if the ideas were good or bad.
Why?
Because all these ideas made it through the filter before they got into the game!
A couple of problems with the Defiler/Viper change:
- Zerg now has NO air spellcaster.
- It removes a lot of the air play from the game.
- It changes the need of maintaining air control vs Zerg.
- It feels strange for the Zerg race to miss a flying unit.
Does this mean that the Defiler is bad for the game? Not necessarily. It maybe is a good idea.
The problem is that it creates a huge hole in the game! Sooner or later this, or something else, will need to be redesigned. Again... Infestor must be reworked? Viper at Lair tech? New spells must be invented...
A couple of problems with the Viking/Banshee change:
- Terran has no "real" Air anti-air unit.
- A lot of the fundamental Air to air combat interactions vs Terran have been removed from the game.
- Terran all of a sudden has two "versions" of the Goliath. (And three strong ground-to-air attackers..)
The problem again is that this creates gaps in the game! Sooner or later this will lead to problems either in 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 games. And it will require yet another redesign.
Neither the Viper/Deflier change or the Viking/Banshee change is a design solution at this point. It is just a rearrangement of the game dynamics. Even more questions and problems arises. When I evaluate this, I see more problems than solutions. I do not see better gameplay from this. There are too many gaps. This just leads to even more design work. It does not lead forward. (Unless Xiphias and Dec have something secret thought out.)
Does this mean that I am absolutely right?
No!
This is just my view on it! This is just how I think.
I am no game designer.
I have no idea how professional people do it.
I just think it is extremely important that ideas are well thought out and complete before they make it into the game.
"Trying to see if it works" is an extremely time consuming effort.
Lets not waste that on incomplete ideas!
Ps. I do not mean to rant on Xiphias and December. After all, I want them to have fun when they do their work. And I think they have done some great stuff for the game. I just fear that Starbow is going in circles due to unnecessary huge design changes.
Ps2. I have also tried my own incomplete ideas in Starbow earlier, because I have not filtered them well enough. And that has been a waste of time for you all : - /
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On May 24 2013 23:09 Kabel wrote:
No, it is not an easy solution to go back to something that worked in BW and mash it into Starbow now.
It will lead to even more redesign of other units since the entire context becomes changed.
Exactly what is the unsolvable problem with Viper that requires this kind of drastic solution?
I have no idea what you are talking about in the rest of your post.
What has changed that implies that Defilers doesn't work?
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I do not say that the Defiler does not work.
I do say that throwing it into the game and "try if it works" is not the way to go...
IF the Defiler shall be in the game there must be a better overall design solution. What shall we do with the Infestor and the Viper? Shall Zerg have a flying caster at all? If not, how will that effect the game? If yes, what spells shall be on it?
Once the concept is solid enough, THEN it is time to try it. NOT just throw it into the game...
Did you even read my long post above?
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In fact it makes little sense to replace an unit with another, without trying to change it. Viking has been changed more time, and did not yield the expected results, for this has been completely revised, but now I think 3 ground anti-air units for Terran are too, but that's another story. We talk about the viper: changed, do some testing before disposing of this unit, a bit like blizzard did with the Warhound =
Try my dark swarm suggestion, I think it can work because once launched, the opponent may reduce the effectiveness and the zerg can reduce losses (vipers). I'm not saying that all my ideas are right, but this is what you asked for. A spell that if launched, it may not work 100%.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now I want to talk about anti air terran. Fucking goliath is an old unit. It was fun but players sometimes prefer the new. New ground "viking" is nice but it should not be too few effective against armored units, (thor anti air attack? with more attack and few damage?). Terran needs an aerial unit anti air armored units. Wraith does this work in a wonderful way, and I think that does not overlap so much to banshee.
Now, however, remember you what I said the for the viper. thoughts?
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On May 25 2013 01:20 Kabel wrote:
I do not say that the Defiler does not work.
I do say that throwing it into the game and "try if it works" is not the way to go...
IF the Defiler shall be in the game there must be a better overall design solution. What shall we do with the Infestor and the Viper? Shall Zerg have a flying caster at all? If not, how will that effect the game? If yes, what spells shall be on it?
Once the concept is solid enough, THEN it is time to try it. NOT just throw it into the game...
Did you even read my long post above?
Well I still think the easy solution is to go back to what worked from BW (assuming we can find no theoretial argument for why it wouldn't work in Starbow).
If people really want a zerg flying spellcaster, then a redesign is indeed needed, but that's not gonna be easy.
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On May 25 2013 01:38 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 01:20 Kabel wrote:
I do not say that the Defiler does not work.
I do say that throwing it into the game and "try if it works" is not the way to go...
IF the Defiler shall be in the game there must be a better overall design solution. What shall we do with the Infestor and the Viper? Shall Zerg have a flying caster at all? If not, how will that effect the game? If yes, what spells shall be on it?
Once the concept is solid enough, THEN it is time to try it. NOT just throw it into the game...
Did you even read my long post above?
Well I still think the easy solution is to go back to what worked from BW (assuming we can find no theoretial argument for why it wouldn't work in Starbow). If people really want a zerg flying spellcaster, then a redesign is indeed needed, but that's not gonna be easy.
Well, just think of a few things when you want to add the defiler to the game:
The Defiler is a whole unit. It has certain spells.
-) What do you do with the Infestor at this point, as plague is a spell on the defiler and putting them on both is kind of a waste. Or do you give the defiler a different spell instead, which then again will make the defiler play out differently than in BW.
-) Does this actually solve the easy castablity of dark swarm that you want to tackle? After all, in BW defilers did not have smart cast which also plays a huge role, not just that now it is on a different unit with flies and also has different spells (and therefore a different role).
-) Does the Viper actually add something to the gameplay that the Defiler does not? Like being a ground support unit, while flying and therefore you get certain composition dynamics, where it might be interesting to have a few air units to counter defilers, while the zerg player should not "just build air units" to protect the vipers, as they don't synergize well and it just makes his army worse.
btw, can somebody show me a replay/Vod about the whole Dark Swarm problem right now?
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I've been lurking for a long while because I didn't have the energy (nor the time to playtest) to make endless posts to argue with you guys, but I have to support Kabel here.
A ton of changes have been made lately, so many that I haven't been able to follow all of them. Blizzard makes very few changes, even though they have massive playerbase to playtest each change, they could make a ton more and see what changes are good enough to keep.
Starbow on the other hand has not a great playerbase and most of all no top tier players with equal skill, so trying a ton of changes and see if they work out is not a good idea. (You also don't look professional this way to potential new players)
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@ Defiler / Viper
Let me be 100% honest on this one. Me and Dec chatted about patching the viking changes since the viking from the last patch did not work as intended (they killed dropships faster than the goliath...). Patching is a bigger job (Kabel knows) so we thought we'd see if we should changes something else while we're at it. We saw the concerns about the Viper, and thought about also changing the infestor a bit and ended up with the change you now have. It was late, and we did not think it through enough (probably), but we both thought that this was not a big change (for some reason) and now it seems that we stirred up something that we never intended.
Does anyone agree with me that the infestor should be more usefull with its burrow ability? Or should we just revert everything back? I have some ideas for new infestor spells but right now it seems that there is too much new stuff .
We'll make sure not to just throw something in to test it in the future, but weight it better first. I'm still not too sure what to do with this whole ordeal. We'll have to think about it for a little. It stays for now since patching is a job and Dec is the one that has to do it.
This brings me to another topic. Me and Dec lives quite away from each other and it is sometimes hard to find time to discuss changes in the game. This makes us working on this MOD challenging at times. This is one of the reasons I'd gladly give it back to Kabel if he feels like it. So, we may not be able to deliver 100% best at all times.
@ New things.
Are there that many new changes? Maybe I've become blind in this matter. There is the nullifier (but that is kinda a recurrence), viking change, Viper change (which I talked about), Ghost change (but that ended up to be a small change), banshee change (but that's more about numbers), and reapers have the charges (but that's a while ago now). Even if this seems like many changes its mostly to units that don't see much gameplay, so the game itself does not feel that different (imo).
@ Viking change.
Now, this is a change we thought about and weighed from many angels. We've done quite a bit of testing as well. There just might be a better design for this unit but let me share a bit more details about why it was changed and what issues we now feel are solved with the change.
TvT This was probably the biggest one imo. TvT often boiles down to who has the most vikings (old) as they are very good at picking off dropships and giving tanks vision. If player A has more vikings than player B then player B can very rarely come back, since his own viking count will always be behind. He can try to go goliath but they lack teh mobility and are usually killed by opponent tanks. It simply creates boring gameplay imo.
TvZ At some ocations (not often, and I know that) zerg could get such a swarm of mutalisks that it was impossible for terran to do anything. His marines had to be together at all times and he could never defend multiple locations as 20+ mutalisks melt any defences within seconds. They are simpley too good dps/area.
Now the new viking solves these issues. But so would probably a Valkyrie ish viking. We felt that a Valkyrie was not a very exciting unit and would counter mutas too hard. A viking that was slow on the ground would make for better area control and positional play, which is one of the core features of Starbow. Since its already build in transform in the editor this could be used to relocate it with a drawback (no attack in air mode). I guess the Valkyrie viking would be the simpler solution, but in my opinion, no so exciting.
Potential drawbacks:
I think the main problem for most players is the lack of terran air to kill air. I can see the initial concern, but I have yet to find a specific situation that new terrans cannot deal with because of this. Especially now that banshees do have some AA attack to chase away dropships and warp-prisms.
And good to hear from you again Solid Well, blizzard is tweaking a finished product. We're not there yet
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On May 25 2013 02:56 SolidSMD wrote:
I've been lurking for a long while because I didn't have the energy (nor the time to playtest) to make endless posts to argue with you guys, but I have to support Kabel here.
A ton of changes have been made lately, so many that I haven't been able to follow all of them. Blizzard makes very few changes, even though they have massive playerbase to playtest each change, they could make a ton more and see what changes are good enough to keep.
Starbow on the other hand has not a great playerbase and most of all no top tier players with equal skill, so trying a ton of changes and see if they work out is not a good idea. (You also don't look professional this way to potential new players)
I think the game has never been better IMO. There are still a very balance issues and some OP spells though and I discoverd that there is no downside to massing blink stalkers early on vs a bio opening player which unfortunately defeats the purporse of opening bio in tvp (there should be a mobility advantage of going bio vs toss).
But still, bio isn't a joke anymore in tvp which is pretty nice and it is designed so that you need 400+ APM to win late game which is pretty cool i think (as it incentivies mech-transitions).
Btw, ironically, the Defiler to Viper change is one of the changes which has gone through since you stopped playing Starbow. Reversing it, is the easiest possible solution to the easiness of landing a solid Dark Swarm, so I have to say I feel like the criticism is misdirected. The only part where I feel like Dec and Xiphias may have have tried for an compliciated solution is the Viking - I think there may have been easier solutions, but I think developers also should have the freedom to test their own creative idea's, and I can also understand the theoretical argument for why it could work.
- Terran has no "real" Air anti-air unit.
- A lot of the fundamental Air to air combat interactions vs Terran have been removed from the game.
- Terran all of a sudden has two "versions" of the Goliath. (And three strong ground-to-air attackers..)
The problem again is that this creates gaps in the game! Sooner or later this will lead to problems either in 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 games. And it will require yet another redesign.
Neither the Viper/Deflier change or the Viking/Banshee change is a design solution at this point. It is just a rearrangement of the game dynamics. Even more questions and problems arises.
I still think you need to present at least some theoretical argument which could arise from reversing the Defiler to Viper switch? I don't see any potential unintended consequences with this change.
I think the same thing applies to the Viking. Why does terran neccesarily need a strong air anti-air unit? What is the theretical argument for that?
When that is said, I did feel like your Viking suggestion had more potential, however, I also believe it needed some more rework to further differentiate the Seeker Missile from Irradiate.
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If i may come with my feedback on the current viking.
The goal at hand right now seems to be to "differentiate" the Viking and the Goliath even futher. We have come a long way through, and i like the new Viking ground mode more than i thought i would.
Now while both of them have decent stats to both air and ground, i think this task might be impossible. So my idea is quite simple: DITCH the ground attack of the viking. Make it even more sucky than it already is, down to the dps of a single marine if that is what it takes. And return Assault mode to what it was, with one change; instead of doing bonus damage to armored, it should be massive instead.
So in terms of Unit roles this will hopefully make some distance between the viking and the goliath at last. The goliath will be this solid Anti-air ground walker hybrid with decent ability to support vs ground, while the viking will be this all around anti-air flier that is the ultimate answer to powerful massive warship*.
Now this Viking will still be much better at fending off dropships than the current Banshee through a single viking won't kill any dropship in a time it takes to drop, but you still won't be able to stick around with them for too long. Its counterrange will be rather big, but the way you have to use this viking means engaging them is still very much possible with units such as mutas. Vikings should also just lose straight-up to Anti-armor air units such as Scouts.
The change to Anti-massive would hopefully also mean that the Viking won't be its own best counter, which have been its biggest design problem in SC2 TvT. Goliath if anything should kill Vikings faster than they kill themself.
The most important thing through is that this is a Starport unit benefitting from the Air upgrades. In SC2 it have always been the Vikings ability to kill stuff slightly faster that carried the existance and use of Air attack upgrades. If the Viking continues to be a mech upgrade unit then Mech will keep being too versatile and Air attack upgrades will have no reason for existing.
*Btw once we make this change we might wanna get around to making some massive Warships that can actually be described as powerful. But that is another discussion.
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@Kabel I see the problem with having 3 GtA terran units. And having no zerg air caster.
@Sumadin From a broad standpoint, I support the idea of an air viking that doesn't kill itself so fast. If you want to buff golaiths play in that interaction, you could reduce the sight range of a viking. That is a drastic change though.
I also would like to see massive warship. They can be introduced dealt with later, though.
A question: if vikings were air to air again, would terrans use them versus vipers?
#Nullifiers
Their main purpose is not to harrass. It isn't even to provide map vision (though we didn't realize just how solid protoss is in that area until we added the nullifier). The nullifier is meant to give protoss a way of stalling or posing a threat to large armies in the mid-late game without physically having their whole army there.
I would like the nullfier to be able to place the ward from range instead of having to physically place it. Increase the setup time to 4 seconds if protosses casting on top of enemies becomes a problem.
I also would like the merging of rupture (15% damage) and nullspace be considered (into one spell). In other words you get both of the benefits at once.
1)Right now the nullifier is a bit weak in the eyes of the average player, giving it edges here and there would make it more attractive. Reward the protoss a bit for triggering a ward successfully.
2)Rupture currently is boring. It does it's damage, but there's no "threat" afterwards. If every rupture came along with a nullspace that lasted, then the opponent has to make a quick decision ("Is there an army waiting to ambush me?" "Am I vunerable in this position?") which is interesting.
3)I don't think its ever a huge choice when to use a rupture and when to use a nullspace. If their army is hovering over 4 wards, you just rupture 3 of them and nullspace using the last one as a nullspace.
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EPT
