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But scout abilities aren't really fun, right? And the observer already functions as a scout, so per definition the scout will always overlap with other units.
As sc2 hots, is a way to get detection without forcing the robo tech. Reveal can be interesting on a group of Mutalisks or other high movement speed units. Envision can be interesting, in all mu (for mines vs t, for lurker vs z, for dark templar vs p).
You've seen too few games where protoss uses corsair + scout composition, and it is something really beautiful and innovative.
edit:
Maybe i have reverse envision with revelation:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Oracle
On May 24 2013 05:04 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 04:40 JohnnyZerg wrote:But scout abilities aren't really fun, right? And the observer already functions as a scout, so per definition the scout will always overlap with other units. As sc2 hots, is a way to get detection without forcing the robo tech. Reveal can be interesting on a group of Mutalisks or other high movement speed units. Envision can be interesting, in all mu (for mines vs t, for lurker vs z, for dark templar vs p). You've seen too few games where protoss uses corsair + scout composition, and it is something really beautiful and innovative. Envision isn't really used to detect units. It seems to be used to see where the opponents units moves which IMO is just straight up boring. Have you ever watched an sc2 cast where you felt excited after someone used envision? Each time it is used I am just: Meh........ Now I know nothing is gonna happen over the next minute, becasue the protoss knows exactly where the opponent will attack and can therefore prepare perfectly.
For this should be decresed area and time. In this way can be interesting, enemy can divide army and make attack with army (not affected by revelation) and seizing the opponent off guard.
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On May 24 2013 04:40 JohnnyZerg wrote:Show nested quote +But scout abilities aren't really fun, right? And the observer already functions as a scout, so per definition the scout will always overlap with other units. As sc2 hots, is a way to get detection without forcing the robo tech. Reveal can be interesting on a group of Mutalisks or other high movement speed units. Envision can be interesting, in all mu (for mines vs t, for lurker vs z, for dark templar vs p). You've seen too few games where protoss uses corsair + scout composition, and it is something really beautiful and innovative.
Envision isn't really used to detect units. It seems to be used to see where the opponents units moves which IMO is just straight up boring. Have you ever watched an sc2 cast where you felt excited after someone used envision? Each time it is used I am just: Meh........ Now I know nothing is gonna happen over the next minute, becasue the protoss knows exactly where the opponent will attack and can therefore prepare perfectly.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
well, i still think that you should remove scout and tempest and add ground unit
currently protoss have: zealot, stalker, dt, ht, archon and reaver as ground unit (6 units, 5 with attack)
with warpprism, nullifier, obs, corsair, scout, arbiter, tempest and carrier (8 units, 6 with attack)
and from air units only carrier could deal some massive dmg.
instead of scout redesign you better to make something with nullifier and mb even move it to stargate, robo already has a reaver/warprism harrasing units
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On May 24 2013 05:29 Fen1kz wrote:
well, i still think that you should remove scout and tempest and add ground unit
currently protoss have: zealot, stalker, dt, ht, archon and reaver as ground unit (6 units, 5 with attack)
with warpprism, nullifier, obs, corsair, scout, arbiter, tempest and carrier (8 units, 6 with attack)
and from air units only carrier could deal some massive dmg.
instead of scout redesign you better to make something with nullifier and mb even move it to stargate, robo already has a reaver/warprism harrasing units
Nullifier will be more of a map control unit with my suggestion. Harass is more of a secondary role I think. That differs to the Reaver which is a cost effective defensive + harass unit.
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Apparently the firebat change didn't even make it into the patch which explains a lot.Must have saved the changes to a test map on the actual mod, whoops!!!
I'm right now reworking it and discussing a lot of issues with Xiphias.
Expect a post pretty soon.
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Map suggestion: Remove high gruond advantage to the 3rd in the fighting spirit remake map. It feels absolutely impossible to attack someone who has walled of that passage. For instance a single Ht + 1 cannon can deal with 30+ suply of bio forces. So effectively there is just one way to attack a defending player on 3 bases.
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@ Vipers.
We are moving it to the ground (Defiler...) for now. We are thinking about giving it plauge (removing frenzy) and give infestors a new spell that goes more in line with the fact that it moves quite quick while burrowed. Any suggestions? Maybe something geared more towards protoss.
@ Nullifier
We are changing the dmg to 12 per shot. I feel we need more testing with this unit before any further changes.
@ Firebat.
The new firebat changes was not actually implemented in the last patch (oOps).
We'll get a new patch up soon.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
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We are moving it to the ground (Defiler...) for now. We are thinking about giving it plauge (removing frenzy) and give infestors a new spell that goes more in line with the fact that it moves quite quick while burrowed. Any suggestions? Maybe something geared more towards protoss.
So your fine with the fact that you will always be able to land a nice Dark Swarm?
Wouldn't it be more awesome if (in the hyphotetical world where Starbow was the main game played) casters went like: "UHHH, Now he moves in with the Defilers/Vipers. Will he able to get of a great Dark Swarm. Lets see..."
Compared to this: "And now the opponent will move in with vipers and will land dark swarm, and then the opponent will unsiege his tanks and move back. Then the zerg player will land another dark swarm and the terran player will move further back."
I don't understand the argument for why you prefer the latter, and so far you haven't (to my knowledge) provided any explanation for why you prefer the removal of uncertainty.
Nullifier at 12 damage per shot: Have you tested whether that actually can kill 4 marines without range and stim? I can't even beat 3 marines currently.
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On May 24 2013 06:30 Hider wrote:
Map suggestion: Remove high gruond advantage to the 3rd in the fighting spirit remake map. It feels absolutely impossible to attack someone who has walled of that passage. For instance a single Ht + 1 cannon can deal with 30+ suply of bio forces. So effectively there is just one way to attack a defending player on 3 bases.
Drop it or Nuke it. Perhaps try getting a flock of reapers or a few tanks to knock down the wall.
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On May 24 2013 06:54 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2013 06:30 Hider wrote:
Map suggestion: Remove high gruond advantage to the 3rd in the fighting spirit remake map. It feels absolutely impossible to attack someone who has walled of that passage. For instance a single Ht + 1 cannon can deal with 30+ suply of bio forces. So effectively there is just one way to attack a defending player on 3 bases. Drop it or Nuke it. Perhaps try getting a flock of reapers or a few tanks to knock down the wall.
Drop it isn't that realistic, because you will drop on top of cannons.
Regarding Nuke, this isn't really what I am thinking about it.
Instead, I am thinking about the classic of dropping in the main/natural + attacking 3rd at the same time (this is also why you can't just drop in the 3rd, because you don't have more than 2-3 dropships at that time in the game).
This is completley impossible on this map. It gets even worse if he builds cannons to protect his naturals against drops (but even if he doesn't do that, he can still easily defend all 3 locations at once as you can't ever engage the 3rd). You can actually see it in of the replays. I had Fen1ks completley out of his position (like stalkers were in his main). And stimmed in with 30 food of bio foces and couldn't get even get past the gateway wall.
Fighting spirit wasn't really created with bio viability in mind (I guess), but if Starbow wants bio to be viable on that map, I think it needs a small change.
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On May 24 2013 01:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 23:39 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
I think the 4 range is intentional (It was in my suggestion), making Banshees shine as a hit and run unit rather than a direct engagement unit. 5 range would mean that their dps can contribute better in a big battle, since they will shoot from behind marines/vultures rather than float in front of them.
Regarding Scout: They really need some combat/snipe ability if they are to be as beefy and expensive as they are. Wraiths, Corsairs and Mutalisks worked in BW because they were cheap and fast - balanced with being somewhat fragile. Devourers, Valkyries and especially Scouts were hidered by being costly and somewhat slow. Valkyries still saw use because of their massive utility, and the Capital ships made up for being slow by having range and firepower.
If the Scout is to be more than the BW unit in usefullnes, it needs speed and utility. A speed upgrade has one downfall - It means that the Scout will be suppar before it is upgraded. This was one of the major flaws with the BW Scout. I suggested a passive ability that gave extra range to consecutive shots on the same target, but base stats could also be tweaked to make it better.
Ideally it will be like the BW Wraith and Mutalisk - not cost effective due to a major weakness (low HP for Wraith, range and HP for Mutalisk), but fast enough to build and use to be attractive to players that have good unit control (Not nessesarely a fast unit, but one thats easy to gain local superiority with). The problem with making the scout more similar to Wraith/mutalisks is that the protoss already has such an unit: The Nullifier. I am considering though if it wouldn't be better to make the Nullifier a ground unit instead (with same role) as that would make it possible for the scout to become more Wraith/mutalisk'ish. A ground Nullifier would probably need a movement speed of like 4.5 (so they don't just die to speedlings for instance) and better DPS relative to its cost. Regarding the banshee: Is it really bad if the banshee becomes slightly better in a straight up fight? I mean terran already has the reaper as the hit and run unit which due to its cliff-jumping makes it feel somewhat similar to an airunit.
Actually my main point was that the Scout (and indeed all units) needs some way of exerting pressure on the map through local supiriority to be an effective unit. There are a number of ways to achieve this:
Speed (ex: Vultures, Wraiths, Mutalisks, Zerglings)
Dps effectiveness (Marines, Zerglings, SC2 Hydras, Corsairs)
Cheap with fast production (Most Zerg units, Wraiths, Corsairs, Vultures)
Range and damage (SC2 Banshee, Capital ships, Tanks, Reavers)
Stealth (DT, Lurker, Wraith)
Spells (Science vessel, Templar)
We need to figure out what the Scouts role should be, and then giving it the tools to do that role properly - not just tack on some abilities that look cool but doesn't help it do its job, and some stats that is medicore at best in all aspects.
This really was the problem in BW - the Scout had no real role in the game as it only worked in big air battles involving BC's or Carriers and had no way of putting pressure on the opponent outside of this incredebly niche role.
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Why are we replacing Vipers with Defilers now? There's no reason for this. Zerg doesn't need two ground casters, it overlaps too much with the Infestor this way. The whole reason we made the Swarm Guardian an air caster originally is because we already have the Infestor, which by the way is a much better fit for the Plague ability. This is a pointless change and you guys are going backwards design-wise.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On May 24 2013 06:32 Xiphias wrote:
@ Vipers.
We are moving it to the ground (Defiler...) for now. We are thinking about giving it plauge (removing frenzy) and give infestors a new spell that goes more in line with the fact that it moves quite quick while burrowed. Any suggestions? Maybe something geared more towards protoss.
@ Nullifier
We are changing the dmg to 12 per shot. I feel we need more testing with this unit before any further changes.
@ Firebat.
The new firebat changes was not actually implemented in the last patch (oOps).
We'll get a new patch up soon.
FIX PF priority!!! its impossible to harras PF when every unit tries to kill dat PF :<
also played tempests - they're useless
by now protoss have 3 fast air units that deals no dmg - scout, nullifier and tempest (which can't outrange goliaths, lol)
so even if you reduce their cost and make them faster - its still 3 air units with same behavior, which is too much
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Looking into PF right now. What I did before should have fixed it but its being quite stubborn.
Edit: and fixed. Expect it in the coming patch.
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Few minor changes patched.
We've got the defiler instead of viper. (Can't burrow yet, gotta rebuild that from scratch or use a different model with burrow).
Nullifier damage up to 12.
Firebat splash should now be fixed.
Planetary priority while not firing fixed (had to actually remove its weapon).
The new tweak of the viking is in.
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Asking again, why do we have Defilers instead of Vipers? I still haven't seen a reasoning for this change.
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We wanted Dark Swarm on a weaker and more fragile ground unit so it is not a spell that is 100% certain to be casted. But it can protect itself by throwing out a dark swarm if threatened (put then it won't be in an ideal location). Same as in BW. It won't have Viper stats, that's one of the points of bringing it in.
On May 24 2013 06:47 Hider wrote:
So your fine with the fact that you will always be able to land a nice Dark Swarm?
This should not be the case with the more slow and fragile Defiler. Sure, it can always cast one if threatened but it won't always be ideal.
I know it's a "cheap" fix for now, since, like HideR said, a Viper will almost always be able to cast a nice dark swarm with 95 % certainty. We could probably have been more creative and that's why we are asking you to think of a new spell for the infestor to go more in line with the fact that it burrows, so they two casters don't overlap too much. We were going to patch the viking fixes anyway so we might as well try to fix some other issues as well.
Right now:
Infestor = Fungal (battle, not super strong) and NP (battle and enemy infiltartion) and ???? (more harass??)
Defiler = Dark Swarm (battle, stronger) and Plauge (battle stronger, ecpesially in late-game because of larger armies and consume) and unit consume (since the defiler is much slower than a Viper)
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There's no problem with Dark Swarm being a 100% certain cast because it is not a spell that has any immediate effect. You are working under the assumption that a spell which "always lands" (which in itself is an exaggeration) is fundamentally bad without looking at the nature of the spell itself.
The comparison HideR made between Dark Swarm and Fungal a page or so back is complete crap. They have nothing in common. There are two major reasons why vanilla SC2 Fungal Growth was bad for the game. First, it took micro away from the opponents, by removing the ability of movement entirely. Secondly, once it hit, there was no way to mitigate the damage - it was the same amount of guaranteed damage, every time. When combined with the root effect, this meant it could be chained indefinitely as long as there was enough energy and the Infestors could get into position. There is also the fact that a long-range AoE damage spell on a Zerg unit breaks the racial theme, but that's only a reason why the spell is bad for Zerg, not bad in general.
Dark Swarm shares neither of those traits. It is a battlefield-altering effect that allows you to create a safezone for your own units - on its own, the spell does absolutely nothing. Without a supporting army, Vipers cannot do damage or harass or disrupt or do ANYTHING with Dark Swarm. When there IS a supporting army, it still requires micro to be utilized effectively, and most importantly, it does not remove micro from the opponents reactions. There are plenty of ways to counteract Dark Swarm - repositioning units further back, Irradiating, Nerve Jammer, Spider Mines, Reaper Charges, Firebats, Psi Storm, Archons, Reavers, Stasis, Zealots, retreating with Blink.... the list goes on.
The point of Dark Swarm is not just to land it - it's what happens after it lands. In that regard, there is plenty of uncertainty. Additionally, with the way the spell is used, the caster is practically never supposed to be in danger, whether it is a ground or air unit. Defilers never moved into tank range to cast Dark Swarm in BW, unless it was behind an advancing army under the cover of other Dark Swarms. The only real counter to Defilers was Science Vessels to Irradiate them, which works perfectly well against Vipers.
Giving Zerg two fat ground caster units is clunky and unnecessary, neither of the other races have such a set up, nor did Zerg have anything like that in BW. The Infestor has taken the place of the BW Queen in SC2, which means the Defiler should be moved into the air to complete the switch - this is why Kabel created the Swarm Guardian that later became the Viper in the first place. Each unit needs a distinct identity. The Viper and Infestor have much greater distinction than Defiler and Infestor, which overlap in too many ways.
Plague also belongs on the Infestor, as the flavor of a subversive unit who infests the enemy and debuffs them over time, whereas the Viper is more of a positional caster. Plague is a pre-battle ability, which makes plenty of sense as a stealthy burrow-ambush hit-and-run. There was no need to change that as well, just to make things more like Brood War.
Basically, we had an awesome thing going with the Zerg caster line-up in Starbow (other than Frenzy) and you guys just took three steps back and improved nothing.
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Great point about plague on infestor.
As for being on the ground, it gives more counter play. It also gives Deflier's the bonus of being able to protect itself (forcing the swarm out early however).
With it on the ground there is potential for target shooting the defiler if they try to run it up too close, or Z can run in units to take shots so the deflier can get a cast off. Defliers can escape on the ground. They can't escape from a single banshee or scout.
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EPT
