EPT[A] Starbow - Page 280
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
The current problem with Dark Swarm on the Viper Compared to its BW counterpart (the Defiler), the Viper is much more durable with 150 HP compared to the 90 HP of the Defiler, and it is also an air unit which means that it is more difficult to target fire it down before it casts Dark Swarm. This means that Dark Swarm currently is an ability which almost always will hit. This is IMO a problem because there should be some kind of uncertainity involved with strong spells such as Dark Swarm. Another problem is that Dark Swarm is a lot better vs units that can't just move out of the area, such as mech. Solution to create uncertainity and make it an better overall ability Instead of targetting an area, the Viper (when it casts Dark Swarm) will make a cloud around itself. The Dark Cloud will follow the viper whereover it goes. Inside the Cloud the Viper is the only unit that can be targetted by non-meele attacks. This means that the efficiency of Dark Swarm will depend on the unit movement (your control) of the Viper. If you make it closer to your opponent's army you might maximize the efficiency of Dark Swarm but at the cost of losing the Viper (if the opponent can target it down). This means that there is now is a lot more uncertainity regarding how well the Dark Swarm will work, which IMO creates a lot more exciting games. This change will of course warrant a slight AOE buff, and a change in energy cost. My suggestion is a 25 initial energy cost followed by an energy drain of 5 per second. With these changes it will still be capable of breaking siege lines, but it will now also be a bit more usefull against protoss ground units for instance. Potential drawbacks of this suggestion Goliaths might counter it to efficienctly with its 9 range. But first of all, that is not neccesarily a problem, instead I think zerg just needs to adjust the way they use it vs goliaths. At a 25 initial energy cost only, they can use Dark Swarm to get into meele range of the mech army. However, instead of continuing to use Dark Swarm over the entire course of the battle, a smart zerg player will choose to cancel Dark Swarm and retreat with his Vipers untill the Goliaths are dead. Then he can go into the battle once again and continue the Dark Swarm casting. The terran player is of course aware of the importancy of his Goliaths and will therefor try to protect them from target firing. Thus a new exciting dynamic is created, so I actually don't think the Goliath-hardcounter thing is an actual problem. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We'll think of this for future patches. I've also adjusted the viking to be more like we wanted it to be (it is very good vs carriers and dropships atm and that was never intended). We've done a lot of testing and the viking will shortly be modified thus: - Less dmg per rocket, but more rockets (+1 vs light, it had to be this way for it not to be good vs drop and carriers...). - 200 hp - Ignores armour, but its attack does not benefit from upgrades (it will be spezialised, like the reaver). Also, this way upgrades won't make it imba, and muta armour won't make it useless. If it's too easy to mass vikings (it should not be) then we might make them more expensive and/or longer build time. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On May 22 2013 18:56 Xiphias wrote: While I don't think dark swarm is a huge problem atm, I do like your suggestion. It could very well create potentally interesting situations and require more from each player while the ability itself is simple and easy to undestand. We'll think of this for future patches. I've also adjusted the viking to be more like we wanted it to be (it is very good vs carriers and dropships atm and that was never intended). We've done a lot of testing and the viking will shortly be modified thus: - Less dmg per rocket, but more rockets (+1 vs light, it had to be this way for it not to be good vs drop and carriers...). - 200 hp - Ignores armour, but its attack does not benefit from upgrades (it will be spezialised, like the reaver). Also, this way upgrades won't make it imba, and muta armour won't make it useless. If it's too easy to mass vikings (it should not be) then we might make them more expensive and/or longer build time. Well isn't it a problem if there is no uncertainity with a spell? If you can always land it quite easily. If we look at WOL one of the reasons why fungal was boring (one of many) was because it seemed to always land. But even back then you could actually target fire them down with tanks (too some extent) before they landed. In Starbow there is no way real way to counter Vipers (besides feedback/EMP) and often times you won't have those abilities avaiable. I just think it would be a lot more interesting if the outcome of the efficiency wasn't determined beforehand and I believe my suggestion will differentiate a great player using Dark swarm from a mediocore player using Dark Swarm. Regarding the viking, do you have any fears that you are creating too much of a niche unit (only good vs mutalisks)? Have you considered perhaps combing it with banshee in some way (make some kind of transformation upgrade)? Lastly, please increase range of Nullifier by 1 so you can actually kite stuff... | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
We at least hopefully got what we wanted for the viking for now, let's try this and then see if it's good for other stuff as well. And don't misunderstand, I like your Dark Swarm suggestion, and it just might get implemented, but we'll have to think of it from more angels first. We'll discuss nullifier range as well, probably not a bad idea. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On May 22 2013 19:40 Xiphias wrote: This viking is actually not bad at killing interceptors, which might be unfortuante? This makes a golaith / viking combo the best way to deal with carriers atm (Goliath for the carriers, and vikings in the back to kill interceptors. It should not be borken though, I did some testing). We at least hopefully got what we wanted for the viking for now, let's try this and then see if it's good for other stuff as well. And don't misunderstand, I like your Dark Swarm suggestion, and it just might get implemented, but we'll have to think of it from more angels first. We'll discuss nullifier range as well, probably not a bad idea. It would probably be neccesasry to nerf goliath's a bit then. Have you tried testing 8 range goliaths (instead of 9)? I think that will make the guardian/carrier vs goliath battle slightly more interesting as the former two units can abuse their higher range. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
 Nerfing Goliath range to 8 would probably be appropriate and actually encourage (I hope) the viking / goliath combo vs carriers. | ||
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Caas
Sweden51 Posts
one of the coolest things with darkswarm was that before a fight you had to first consume for energy and then throw it off without being hit by tanks and then keep it afloat so ur units would not be killed instantly. why is that such a bad "design" | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
oh well.. now im just more confused.. one of the coolest things with darkswarm was that before a fight you had to first consume for energy and then throw it off without being hit by tanks and then keep it afloat so ur units would not be killed instantly. why is that such a bad "design" Dark Swarm is currently on the Viper, not the Defiler. You can't target it before battles with tanks. The proposed changes would completely ruin Dark Swarm. You would only be able to have a single cloud per Viper, and it would never be able to get close enough to a mech ball to achieve it's purpose, not to mention it would be too similar to Arbiters Cloaking field for my taste What do you mean by single cloud per viper? Why can't you get it close enough to the mech ball. Have you done any testing in the unit tester? i mean viper has 150 HP, they really don't die very fast to goliaths. You probably need like 10 goliaths target firing the Viper before the battle in order to neglect the efficiency of Dark Swarm and in that case the Viper has already kinda showed its value (forced the terran into not getting tanks). Also I think this is very different from cloacking field. Cloacking field is IMO much more of a gimmick (as it can be countered by detection). Dark Swarm on the other hand has no counter besides focus firing (but instead it drains energy when used). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I did some more testing and they are not that great vs carriers, If you can get a critical amount of them (12-16) then you kill interceptors really fast, and to such effect that carriers must retreat, but that is a HUGE investment and if the toss players just follow up with heavy stalker then it should be no problem. No need to nerf goliath range atm I think. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Terran can easily fight it by simply having space, and spreading out his forces. With bio he can pretty easilly retreat. With mech he can simply be spread out. Then we also have nerve jammer for counter play. Dropships for pickups. Fungle was simply you hit, roots and does damage. Dark Swarm is so much more game space oriented. Of course there is always ways of making things better, but that doesn't seem to be a huge problem area for the game right now. | ||
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Izerman
Sweden99 Posts
but anyway.. dont change the darkswarm, i think it fits perfectly. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
Following your suggestion Hider will have more consequences. Right now toss has to react to viper/ ling backstab with at least warping in units. With aura around viper couple of cannons focusing viper will be enough | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On May 23 2013 05:07 decemberscalm wrote: Dark Swarm isn't just a hit and you win spell though. Terran can easily fight it by simply having space, and spreading out his forces. With bio he can pretty easilly retreat. With mech he can simply be spread out. Then we also have nerve jammer for counter play. Dropships for pickups. Fungle was simply you hit, roots and does damage. Dark Swarm is so much more game space oriented. Of course there is always ways of making things better, but that doesn't seem to be a huge problem area for the game right now. I agree, but that concept is still there with my suggestion. What isn't there with the current implementation is degree of a succesfully casted Dark Swarm. It's simply extremely easy to always land as your Viper will never die before it casts it. With the Defiler there was risk, the Viper on the other hand is just a way too buffy air unit to create any kind of uncertanty. So my point is that when you add +60 HP to a unit and make it an air unit (easier to manuovre and more difficult to target fire from the opponents POV) you need to change the way its ability works in order to keep it interesting. Please be aware that I am not talking about counterplay at all here - Instead I am talking about the easiness of always landing an efficient Dark Swarm. Following your suggestion Hider will have more consequences. Right now toss has to react to viper/ ling backstab with at least warping in units. With aura around viper couple of cannons focusing viper will be enough I don't understand this completely? Are you saying that with my suggestion cannons will hard counter vipers too much? But yeh I agree regarding the ground-defiler thing. Bringing back the Defiler is definitely the easy approach to fixing the easiness of casting the ability efficiently. If Dark Swarm stays on Viper, then it needs a redesign IMO. | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
I don't understand this completely? Are you saying that with my suggestion cannons will hard counter vipers too much? But yeh I agree regarding the ground-defiler thing. Bringing back the Defiler is definitely the easy approach to fixing the easiness of casting the ability efficiently. If Dark Swarm stays on Viper, then it needs a redesign IMO. Im saying: In lategame zvp toss will need only cannons to efficiently defend vs backstabbing. In BW zerg could easily destroy not protected (or just by static defences) bases with small squads of units (like 10 cracklings + 1 defiler to clear expo in seconds). | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On May 23 2013 07:04 Danko__ wrote: Im saying: In lategame zvp toss will need only cannons to efficiently defend vs backstabbing. In BW zerg could easily destroy not protected (or just by static defences) bases with small squads of units (like 10 cracklings + 1 defiler to clear expo in seconds). Thats a valid point. Do you think that my suggestion will therefore discourage "small army play"? | ||
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