EPT[A] Starbow - Page 270
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Vizza
Sweden1 Post
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
New cast is up: Trying to speak slower is just not working...  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
In one way I kinda like that, as it creates a new dynamic where reavers actually is a soft counter to tanks. The best way to deal with reavers as a mech'ing terran is to matrix the tanks before you move in with them, which is a pretty mechanically rewarding and interesting mechanic. On the other hand it will be impossible to make bio close to viable unless reavers gets nerfed a bit in another way. Think about it; Reavers costs 100 minerals + 200 Gas, and as there is plenty of gas in Starbow, it is possible for a protoss player to go like 5-10 reavers, 5-10 Ht's + food of gateway army vs a bio army. I don't think there is close to any possibility for a bio player to ever engage with. And 11 range reavers kinda implies that you can't really kite the gateway army without taking a shot from the reavers. Even though bio shouldn't be cost effective in a "commited" fight, I think this is overdoing a bit. My idea is based on 2 changes which makes it "easier" to minimize damage intaken from the reaver; 1) Decrease projectile movement speed 2) Visualize which unit is being targetted (show a red dot or something like that) The reason I think the former is neccesary is that the movement speed seems just a tad to fast in order for me to react fast enough to split up my units after the scarabs has been fired. A korean would probably be able to do it, but I think for most other players, one will preemptively split up their units vs reavers. I prefer that micro is reaction-based (you micro after the ability/unit has begun attacking you). Furthermore this could lead to more fun "micro-tricks": Imagine this. When I siege up my 2 tanks vs the 2 reavers, I willl have time to fire one shot before the projectile hits me. After the tanks has fired they will immediately be killed by the scarabs. But if I have one dropship over my tanks and instantly pick them up after they have shot, then I can save at least one of the tanks. The latter suggestion is also based on making it easier to avoid taking damage from the reaver. As a bio player you can now run away the targetted marine(s), matrix them or pick them up in dropships. So basically these suggestions won't make reavers signifcantly worse. It will just mean that we will see more micro vs reavers which I think is awesome. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 08 2013 14:02 Xiphias wrote: Nice feedback, we'll fix these issues in the patch after the tournament (or before...) New cast is up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go8sj0f-qsQ Trying to speak slower is just not working... That game was fun just watching again even though I knew how it ended. Anyway maybe you can ask Kabel to update OP to include a game of the week-VOD. I think its important that new players who click on the starbow thread easily can find and watch the best starbow games. I think that was one of my first starcraft games in over a months so I was a bit rusty. Mostly my scv-macro was kinda bad. Vizza obviously new to Starbow, but I still think he made a lot of good decisions in that game. Sure he took some slightly too inefficient trades, but still the core conccept of sending in small groups of units all the time in order to trade armies is IMO how tvp is supposed to be played. Though obviously since then we played quite a bit, and he is now using more reavers (rather than sending in archons and dark templars) to trade armies/harass. Noted. Adding a target mark is defently a good idea. We'll look at the range and movment speed of the prodjectile. Yeh, funny though, in the vod you said that Reavers don't work against tanks, but thats probably due to some "bw-bias" (shorter range). At 11 range they are extremely efficient at picking up small group of tanks. IMO they are a much better gas-sink than HT's/archons vs mech. Maybe the 11 range was unintentional but as I really like the dynamic it creates I don't wanna nerf the range, rather I want to see a bit more options to counter it. Another difference that makes reavers more usefull in Starbow Tvp mech compared to BW is the fact that terran needs to take a 4th base quicker. This means that terran just can't make a 20 minute 3 base 160 (at least that is not as efficient as in BW) as the income will be lower if you stay on 3 bases and if you take a 4th you will be much more exposed to counter attacks. This creates a slightly differnet metagame; where the terran needs to spread out his forces in order to defend his expansions. Reavers > tanks in small groups (2-5), but when you have too many tanks, there is no weak areas in terrans defense. For instance if you have like 20 tanks defending an expansion then you can't drop 2 reavers to harass that expos. However, if you only have 2-5 tanks defending an expansion then it is much easier to drop reavers and target the command center as tanks can't protect the whole area (at least that is very difficult). But as I said I really like these changes in metagame, and TvP 20 minute turtling into 160 supply 3 base timing attack wasn't always that entertaining. Rather I prefer the idea of the mech'ing player defending while doing a bit of harass, and with the protoss player trying to army trade and abuse the immobility of the mech army. TvZ thoughts So basically I really like the tvp dynamic in Starbow. I have to say I am still slightly concerned over how TvZ early game works. I think vulture openings into bio can work now, however its also possible that cheaper vulutures will make vulture into mech too strong, which will warrant a vulture HP nerf (and thus make vulture openings into bio a cheesy opening that relies on the opponent being unprepared). This means that bio openings (into bio) will probably still be the standard (assuming you wanna go bio in the midgame), but any time of "stim-pressure" build will be countered by spine crawler walls and due to the somewhat symmetrical economies neither the terran nor the zerg player can afford to army trade. Therefore in order to incentivize early game non allin action in TvZ one race needs to have a "cost efificent" way of harassing the opponent prior to the 10 minute mark. I previously suggested a modified version of nydus at tier 1 which could give a great micro zerg options to outplay the opponent in the early game. A way to incentivize the terran to harass is by making openings like 1-2 rax into dropship on 2 bases stronger. Right now I feel like you need to take a 3rd before investing in a factory (unless you scouted your opponent going for a lurker all in). Reducing cost of starport (or further reducing dropship cost) could help with that. On the other hand that may make vulture drops openings too efficient, so I wouldn't recommend inplementing that without any nerf to vultures. But assuming Vulture HP gets reduced to 80 (from 90), I would also like to see Starport cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/100. EDIT: I think 50/50 dropships (instead of 100/100 starports) could also be really awesome. Like if we look at BW TvP. A terran player would often set like 2 tanks to attack an expansion and block the path with his main army so the protoss couldn't send defensive reinforcements. However, in Starbow that isn't really viable as warping in a couple of zealots counter that. But that is where dropships with the ability to pick up siege tanks comes on. Right now I think it is probably slightly too expensive (at 100/50) to have more than 1-2 dropships at the time as a mech'ing terran. I think it would be even more awesome to see more dropships (like 3-5) along with the mech army.. Thus you could send like 4 tanks along with 2 dropships to attack an "outer" protoss expansion and if you have great unit control you can always pick up the siege tanks if they warp in zealots. You can do the same thing currently in Starbow, but at a lower dropship cost I think we will see that much more often, and as it also will help with making bio more viable in the other matchups (as cheaper dropships increases the mobility of bio without making them more cost effective), I really wanna see this change implemented. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I am also thinking about terran economy in general. Terran seems to be the "poorest" race atm, scv-calldown is not as effective as chornoboost and larva. We could either 1. Make terran a cheaper race in general (just started with the vulture, and that would justify a cheaper dropship as well) or 2. boost the scv-call down ability (shorter cool-down and/or 25 min per scv calldowned..). It is nice to have racial differences though, one race is "poorer" than the other, but that does not have to mean "worse". Reducing cost of starport can also lead to unfortunate banshee timings. Cheaper dropships I think are a better idea in that regard. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, you usually bring up something that needs to be adressed and looked into Edit: I have no idea if 11 range reaver was intended, or even if it was 11 range before HoTS. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 08 2013 20:44 Xiphias wrote: We are looking at ways to implement the nydus in the next patch. It is a bit challenging. It can easily become too good vs. bad players and unusable vs. good players. Even if you can only move 2 units through, then the risk/reward of sneaking in 2 cheesy lurkers early in the game seems too high. And if it's hatch tech you can get units in your opponents main REALLY early (even if it's just a few) assuming he is fast-expanding. Maybe a 1.5 hatch tech somehow. Cost gas and require an evo-chamber or hydra den... I am also thinking about terran economy in general. Terran seems to be the "poorest" race atm, scv-calldown is not as effective as chornoboost and larva. We could either 1. Make terran a cheaper race in general (just started with the vulture, and that would justify a cheaper dropship as well) or 2. boost the scv-call down ability (shorter cool-down and/or 25 min per scv calldowned..). It is nice to have racial differences though, one race is "poorer" than the other, but that does not have to mean "worse". Reducing cost of starport can also lead to unfortunate banshee timings. Cheaper dropships I think are a better idea in that regard. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, you usually bring up something that needs to be adressed and looked into Edit: I have no idea if 11 range reaver was intended, or even if it was 11 range before HoTS. I don't think 6 lings inside your main will everk kill you..Especially if they are slow lings. You will still have 3 marines typically and you can pull a couple of scvs as well. And a protoss player will have like 1 zealot and 1 stalker. I think it is better adjust the BT of the nydus tech rather than make it require EVO. Lurker with nydus play won't happen untill midgame, and I think that can work just as well through overlord drop play. Regarding terran having less eco than the other races. I don't think thats a problem in it self and I am not sure if it is totally true either. In TvP, yes the toss has better eco but that is a good thing, because it incentivizes the protoss player to army trade --> more action. In Sc2 the races have too similar economies which means that we see a lot of deathball'ing and turtling. That is kinda the problem in TvZ Starbow I think. Both races actually have somewhat similar economies if the terran goes for bio + tank and in battles they tend to trade somewhat evenly (neither really is really significantly more effective than the other one). With bio + tank your mobile enough to get a decent economy but your also cost effective enough when you defend so that the zerg can really never attack you unless you mess up. Neither player is really incentivized to attack or harass unless they can be cost efficient. And it seems to me that you get more cost effective the larger your army is relative to your opponent, thus there is little reasons/benefits to split up your army. Some suggestions I do wonder though, maybe vipers are too mobile? With vipers being mobile the zerg can somewhat easily defend multiple locations relatively cost efficient. If on the other hand a zerg going vipers would be really cost effective but also really immobile vs bio, then there would be a huge advantage for the terran bio to split up his army. Another potential issue is matrix. I don't think the cooldown thing works that well. It means that is is a lot better to have 10 medis than 2-3 medis, which means that they will benefit more from being in a big deathball. If you have your medis + tanks + bio in a big deathball you can almost cast matrix constantly. On the other hand attacking location x with like 10 marines and 2 medis isn't that efficient as you can only matrix 2 of your units. I would like to make matrix energy dependent with no cooldown. This would make the matrix-casting much more of a decision where you weight the disadvantage of having less energy to heal against the benefits of being a lot stronger over the next 12 seconds. That would mean that you could send your group of 10 marines + 2 medis to a completely different location than your main army, and if the opponent chose to send 40 lings to kill your army, then you could actually take up a battle against them or you could escape with your units by casting matrix on all of them while running away (assuming you have enough energy). To sum up; below are my ideas on how to make TvZ more actionpacked and less deathball'ish. 1) Make early game harass mechanics/units cost effective (nydus tier 1 + cheaper dropships) 2) Make bio less effective in a deathball (change matrix), while making it better in smaller groups (matrix change + cheaper dropships). 3) Make zerg more cost effective against bio but less mobile (change zerg spellcasters perhaps) --> A Terran bio player will now be incentivized to trade armies as they will have a better eco than the zerg player. Thoughts? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
Because some times I feel like you have to cut scv's for quite a while because you can't afford that early a 3rd or 4th (assuming you also want to invest into units to put pressure on your opponent). Rewarding constant worker production probably wouldn't be a bad idea (?). Cheaper bases will actually be a slight nerf to the immobile race (mech),as they can't take bases as fast as the other races (need a critical mass of tanks). On the other hand that will make it even more neccesary to harass someone who tries to take bases too quickly (for example a taking very fast 3rd and 4th. Rather than countering a greedy toss by cutting unit (aka vulture) production so you can afford a quick 3rd your self, I think it would be more awesome if you could afford vultures and a somewhat fast 3rd at the same time. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
I'm still not big fan of nydus, but if it needs a requirement then it has to be burrow research. 3 suply, 50/50+ drone. Worm after unburowing should spit out all units inside, be one sided (you can load only "head" or ln base when worm is in use). Killing head kills building, but you can burrow "head " back (saving units btw ) Upgrade at hive allowing to create network like in sc 2, and better worms spitting more untits (and allowed to be used off cre ep).that's how I see it. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 08 2013 23:49 Danko__ wrote: Dropship cost was already reduced to 75/75 in last versions of WoL. If its back to 100/100 then probably its one of these things lost in transition. I'm still not big fan of nydus, but if it needs a requirement then it has to be burrow research. 3 suply, 50/50+ drone. Worm after unburowing should spit out all units inside, be one sided (you can load only "head" or ln base when worm is in use). Killing head kills building, but you can burrow "head " back (saving units btw ) Upgrade at hive allowing to create network like in sc 2, and better worms spitting more untits (and allowed to be used off cre ep).that's how I see it. It was reduced to 100/50 at the end of WOL. 50/50 sounds better though (as it will worth getting as an escape-goat rather than just to transport harass units). I guess your not a big nydus fan because it has a tendency to be allinsh right? But I think my suggestion will change that: At hatch tech it will work similarly to 2 reapers harassing your base (something like that at least). At lair tech (where I expect you can purchase a supply-upgrade to nydus) it will be somewhat similarly to two dropships landing in your base, which shouldn't be something that kills you. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
No, that's not that I don't like allins. I'm heavy alliner myself. I just don't like your version. You said nothing about how its gonna work (unless I missed that) beside it will cost 25-50/25-50 and transport 3 suply at hatch tier. I would just prefer that it would have bit more utility beside barassing. Would be cool to see it used like in bw lategame | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I had no idea that matrix did not require energy! I need to play more Terran.... I am slowly learning things... It definitely should require energy. It is an interesting choice of energy usage. 1 energy = 3 healed hp atm (which might be too much?) Let's say Matrix cost 25 energy (or maybe 50 if we nerf healing). Then you have the choice of temporarily buff one unit with more hp than you could with healing, or permanently heal whichever unit is injured. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 09 2013 00:32 Danko__ wrote: 50/50 for unit like this is gonna be ridiculous. Honestly I do think they don't really need to be even cheaper than 100/100. They have huge potential already with speed + picking up sieged tanks. Why they were used in bw and are not here? No, that's not that I don't like allins. I'm heavy alliner myself. I just don't like your version. You said nothing about how its gonna work (unless I missed that) beside it will cost 25-50/25-50 and transport 3 suply at hatch tier. I would just prefer that it would have bit more utility beside barassing. Would be cool to see it used like in bw lategame Below is an interesting BW game for comparison. As you can see Innovation manages to kill 3 nexus's with 3*2 tank without any other support. That can never happen in Starbow as the protoss player will warp in a couple of zealots and easily deal with the tanks. Thus a terran player needs dropships to pick up siege tanks in order to engage with siege tanks without other support. So right now the terran player is kinda paying 100/50 just to be able to do the same thing he could do for free in BW. Currently I think it is optimal to have like 1-2 dropships flying around and dropping stuff. However, I would like to see more than 1-2 dropships. I would actually like to see another 1-3 dropships along with your mech army. This means that you will be able to engage with a certain position with a relatively small force (like between 6 and 20 supply) while still being able to escape with the army. if you have good reactions. At 100/50 getting dropships for "escape-goat"-purposes is just too inefficient, but by reducing the cost to 50/50 I think we will see it used a lot more in that way. Thus cheaper dropships will actually work as "rift" does for protoss by allowing players to engage without losing their whole army. This encourages players to split up their army rather than keeping it together. Again, deathballing isn't the biggest problem with Starbow (it already works really well in that regard), but getting more of this type of gameplay doesn't hurt, and I dont think this would lead to any unintended consequences. But the primary reasoning for cheaper dropships is to to make 2 base dropships openings stronger in TvZ. In my opinion tvz early game is just too passive .Watch a couple of HOTS games and you will notice a huge diffference as there is bascially action all the time. This is due to the fact that the terran player has "risk-free" ways to engage the zerg player throughout all the stages of the game. In Starbow that concept doesn't exist in TvZ as dropships openings are too risky (as it delays your 3rd for too long). Cheaper dropships will make it possible to drop the zerg early on while also taking a 3rd relatively fast. At last I believe this will buff bio in the correct way (mobility). Bio isn't supposed to be cost effective, but its supposed to be able to obtain a stronger economy than the more immobile opponent. Cheaper dropships will help with that. So to sum up advantages; - More action early game in a non-allinsh way (main reason) - Incentivizing players to split up their armies in the later stages of the game by using dropships as an escape goat (rather than just as a transport unit). - Buffing bio the correct way. I don't see any ways this will make gameplay worse. It's possible that it can make terran slightly imbalanced in some ways, but that can be fixed by adjusthing other stats. But from a pure "design"/gameplay POV I like cheaper dropships. - | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Btw. Having a "game of the week" is a good idea, but I need a better PC first. All my VOD's are choppy atm. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 09 2013 03:27 Xiphias wrote: hmmm what if the ghost has a spell that is equal to having 2-3 dropships in your army? Similar to the one suggestion that you read, but that I deleted. Dropship for harass, ghost to micro the army.... Btw. Having a "game of the week" is a good idea, but I need a better PC first. All my VOD's are choppy atm. True, but the suggestion wasn't really targetted at mid/late game. Mostly I just want to see ways more early game low risk/low reward action in tvz. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
And btw what is the logic behind nerve jammer. Put nerve jammer on your tanks and make them invincible. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that they can attack while not being able to take any damage at all. I think prepatch it worked only on meele units, but now it works on everything. | ||
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pornguy
13 Posts
Buyers remorse =\ | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:00 pornguy wrote: I actually bought HotS to play this mod, but unfortunately everyone is in EU and I am in US server. Buyers remorse =\ *facepalm* You know that with HotS global play was introduced, right? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:00 pornguy wrote: I actually bought HotS to play this mod, but unfortunately everyone is in EU and I am in US server. Buyers remorse =\ There are players on US once in a while. I'll have decemberscalm get in touch with you when there are people online, And, like stated above, ofc, you can play on EU as wall, but the time zones might make that difficult for you. Tune in on Saturday at 6 pm CET (11 am for most of USA) at: twitch.tv/decemberscalm or just log on to EU and obs games to watch the tournament. @Hider. About Ghost. You said you needed more dropships, 1-2 for harassment and 2-3 for army movement (mostly for mech?). What if having 1-2 ghosts could be a good alternative for the 2-3 dropships needed for army movement? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On May 09 2013 14:35 Xiphias wrote: There are players on US once in a while. I'll have decemberscalm get in touch with you when there are people online, And, like stated above, ofc, you can play on EU as wall, but the time zones might make that difficult for you. Tune in on Saturday at 6 pm CET (11 am for most of USA) at: twitch.tv/decemberscalm or just log on to EU and obs games to watch the tournament. @Hider. About Ghost. You said you needed more dropships, 1-2 for harassment and 2-3 for army movement (mostly for mech?). What if having 1-2 ghosts could be a good alternative for the 2-3 dropships needed for army movement? But ghosts doesn't make tvz early game more actionpacked. Cheaper dropships can. Anyway, this would be my suggestion for the ghost. Give snipe a new name and make it capable of attacking nonbiological units as this will make it usefull vs reavers as well. Ability 1 Energy ghost: 25. Damage = 70 (roughly). New snipe attack is a somewhat slow projectile, where you target a location instead of a unit. If the unit is inside a radius of 0.5 (something like that) of the targetted location after the projectile has landed, it will take damage. However, it can only damage 1 unit per projectile, so if there are multiple units inside the small radius, it will target the unit that is closest to the middle. The projectile can be avoided with good reaction as long as the targetted unit is somewhat fast. However, a reaver can't escape it without the use of a warp prism. This means that the snipe ability will be good in these scenarios: 1) Vs big armies (as you always will hit a unit. Maybe not the unit you intended to target, however then you will kill something else). 2) Vs slow immobile units (siege tank as exceptions I guess as snipe range is too low vs the 13 range of siege tanks). 3) You can manipulate your opponent into moving in a certain direction through a couple of "snipes". Some times this can be beneficial if you have units flanking him/spider mines or siege tanks in that location. 4) Your opponent has bad micro. Ability 2: Anti air mine. I guess it is somewhat similar to widow mine, however there are some big differences. 2) Its not moveable. 3) It has no primary target. It deals the same amount of damage to all units inside an area of X. 4) Larger activation range than widow mines and higher Aoe. 5) Roughly 40-50 damage. 6) Energy cost = 25 That means the ghost will have no lockdown and "normal" snipe. But I think these two abilities will make the ghost very valueable when going bio, but also usefull with mech. At the same time these two abilities will probably warrant a ghost price increase from 50/100 to 100/100 and a supply increase from 2 to 3. The ability will obviously mostly be used vs mass mutalisks, but it could have other uses as well (to soften the HP of dropships, banshees, if the opponent has his carriers/guardians tightly packed etc.). | ||
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