EPT[A] Starbow - Page 268
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On May 07 2013 01:38 SmileZerg wrote: The answer, I think, is to split the Goliath into two units. Nerf the damage vs Light air, make the Viking a factory ground unit requiring Armory with a splash AA that is ONLY good vs Light air. Add a research to the Factory Tech Lab that requires Armory and Starport and unlocks the Vikings flight mode, in which they will retain their Valkyrie-like AA attack. Replace the Vikings slot in the Starport with the Wraith and remove the Banshee, tweaking Wraiths as necessary to replace the AtG harass role. Could work. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
About wraith, we probably rather just change the banshee to be a bit more "wraith-like", but we'll focus on the Viking for now. That was actually a great idea! Imagen lategame TvP id protoss goes carriers, you make goliath, but then it's also nice to have the upgrade in order to land the vikings on key locations. No need for complicated special abilities. Nice and clean. Would also be cool of vikings could transform while moving. This would add great depth to the goliath unit in general. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 07 2013 02:33 Xiphias wrote: To make sure I understand correctly. You want a ground viking that is specialized to fight single, armored units (more like goliath) and then it can be upgraded to transform into an air unit that is good (splash) vs light (more like a viking with splash / valkery), but it's still produced from the factory.... I like it. About wraith, we probably rather just change the banshee to be a bit more "wraith-like", but we'll focus on the Viking for now. That was actually a great idea! Imagen lategame TvP id protoss goes carriers, you make goliath, but then it's also nice to have the upgrade in order to land the vikings on key locations. No need for complicated special abilities. Nice and clean. Would also be cool of vikings could transform while moving. This would add great depth to the goliath unit in general. Let me clarify: My idea was to keep the Goliath, as is, but specialize it more to be anti-Armor and less anti-Light. Then add the ground Viking to the factory as well, specialized to be only anti-light, with a splash AA attack. Later you can research a transformation ability that will basically turn it into a Valkyrie (or back again). Just making sure we're on the same page here, I'm not sure if you followed from the way you worded the response. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
On May 07 2013 02:40 SmileZerg wrote: Let me clarify: My idea was to keep the Goliath, as is, but specialize it more to be anti-Armor and less anti-Light. Then add the ground Viking to the factory as well, specialized to be only anti-light, with a splash AA attack. Later you can research a transformation ability that will basically turn it into a Valkyrie (or back again). Just making sure we're on the same page here, I'm not sure if you followed from the way you worded the response. I'd rather remove the valkyrie part of it (that takes the essense out of the change). A splash damage ground unit will basicalyl make it a faster cheaper thor which I think is okay. When that is said, I don't like making huge unit changes and adding units that are extremely nichy only to promote situations which aren't particularly awesome (AA ground unit vs mutalisks is better than an air AA vs mutalisks, but still not that exciting). | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On May 06 2013 21:49 Hider wrote: If you implement sc2 vikings then it will definitely make carriers kinda bad. And the fact that terrans can counter them even harder by adding in goliaths will just make carriers even worse. Wrong, carriers still fight sc2 viking. Goliath support is necessary. Another problem is that guardians/broodlords vs vikings is just stupidly boring. I definitely prefer ground units to counter big tier 3 units and goliaths do that job at the moment. Zerg should have units for support guardians (as mutalisks or hydralisks for counter vikings), and goliath in any case, can force the separation of the guardian, avoiding stack, as well as hold off mutalisks. These two units have a potential synergy if used well together. Why not use the opportunity? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On May 07 2013 02:40 SmileZerg wrote: Let me clarify: My idea was to keep the Goliath, as is, but specialize it more to be anti-Armor and less anti-Light. Then add the ground Viking to the factory as well, specialized to be only anti-light, with a splash AA attack. Later you can research a transformation ability that will basically turn it into a Valkyrie (or back again). Just making sure we're on the same page here, I'm not sure if you followed from the way you worded the response. Hmmm... seems that these two units can be combined into one. A "goliath" with focus on AA vs armored that can be upgraded to have flying AA vs light. That could cause some interesting gameplay. Having to land and position well vs some type of air units, but having to be in fly mode vs others... | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
Well i was thinking about Hiders Air trap btw, even through it reminds alot of Widow mines, and then it struck me what it really reminded me off. Mag mines! So in case you didn't play the HOTS campaign here is Day9's playthrough of the level that featured them. You see with Airial freedom there isn't much point in immobile mines, but these shoot a rocket. It comes with Laser sight too so you know when your units are in the danger zone. As seen in the playthrough any decent player can dodge them against an AI but try that while getting shot from huge range by vikings. It would do huge AOE damage if hit, but its true value is that it means vikings have a tool to make Air unit stay at a distance. And vikings as we know outrange anything in the air. Perfect synergy. That level feature enough custom models to refit the entire terran air Arsenal in case we wanted that btw. | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
On May 07 2013 03:27 Xiphias wrote: Hmmm... seems that these two units can be combined into one. A "goliath" with focus on AA vs armored that can be upgraded to have flying AA vs light. That could cause some interesting gameplay. Having to land and position well vs some type of air units, but having to be in fly mode vs others... It doesn't make sense to me that they would have two completely different types of missiles and only be able to fire one set while on the ground and the other while flying. I think it's better to keep them as separate units. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/User:Xiphias/Starbow_2 You can have different weapons for air and ground... But I am sure it is frustrating to you that I misunderstood your idea and am liking my misunderstood version of it better... Dec will probably talk some sense into me. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Vs heavier units, ground based counters are always more interesting. It makes terrain an important aspect to the fight. That is why I can't see vikings sc2 version being good for the game. I'm really digging smilezergs original concept for anti light. Armory tech to give a window for light unit harass. At first they could have relatively long range, slow firing, but high damage to light units. This makes them bad vs lots of little light units aka zerglings, marines, and zealots, but good vs mutalisks and other beefier light units. The upgrade for transformation would be the end of mutalisk micro, similar to how once Terran got out irradiate in BW zerg had to focus on better tech and use muta in other ways instead. Air viking could be the actual hard counter to massed muta, a smart Z will disengage vs air viking. I think this could work pretty well and be fun. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
Xiphias's misunderstood version gave me an idea. How about something like this on the viking when landed. + Show Spoiler + Viking armory tech, built out of factory. Shoots a large stream of bullets + or flak in the sky when landed. Current version when in the air. You'll lift it and land it in places where you need anti air fire. Landed version only does aoe in the air. | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
With vultures being 33% more expensive than their BW counterparts it kinda makes me feel very uncomfortable using them for harass as they are almost too valuable too lose (you simply need them to defend vs attacks). It is first when you have gotton up a suply depot wall off protecting entracnes to your 3rd that I feel comfortable harassing with them.But at that st ge in the game your completely relying on the toss making mistakes in order to do damage. I feel like testing vultures at 75/25 should be something worth considereing as it will help with the "excessive gas" problem. At that price terrans will be more willing to risk suiciding them into harass which will incentivize more action in the midgame. . | ||
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SmileZerg
United States543 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9433 Posts
Btw regarding the current unit movement. Have you performed any test to quantify what it means for the small defensive army vs large army in terms of cost effectiveness relative to the Sc2 unit movement? Because I don't feel like there is any noticeable effect. | ||
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Danko__
Poland429 Posts
But on the other hand I do think 4 range 75/25 vultures are not gonna be op. We can give it a try. Current pathing seems to be affecting mostly traveling on map. Imho we should make it bit less effective at surrounding (higher slow value after bumping into another unit). | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
There are a couple of current challanges: 1. Me and Dec live on two very different places and there are few times we can chat during the day. 2. We are both fairly busy. We are not pulling out of this or anything, but very time-comsuming and tedious tasks like working with numbers and testing extencivly are very limited atm. If anyone wants to look at numbers, math and balance, feel free to use the editor and download the Starbow MOD file (The one marked XD (Xiphias Decemberscalm) is the current one) and look at all these things. Do not, however, publish it! Just send us what you find, if you feel something needs to change. It would be interesting to try 75 mineral vultures again actually. Terran is the "poorst" race atm anyway so they might as well ahve some cheaper units. Or maybe make it 85 minerals (I know it's a "stupid" number but sometimes 75 is too little and 100 is too much...) | ||
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