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On May 05 2013 22:45 Azelja wrote:
Only if it's desired that mech switches are a must lategame. But then bio would have to either get nerfed lategame (in whatever shape or form, doesn't matter) or mech buffed late/nerfed early to give an incentive to open bio and transition. Otherwise you would only open mech.
Cause transitions be expensive. And I'm just a poor fella.
i think the advantage og bio openings should be to establish a stronger eco than you would have been able to obtain with a mech opening
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...and dark swarm sometimes forces mech (vultures + mines are great vs lurkers / DS).
@ Meta-game: I have few preferences in how the meta-game should be for each match-up, but there should always be the choice between eco, army and tech (sometimes you combine them to some extent ofc). And the tech choice should pay off if you can stay alive. That's why I don't want bio (pure bio without tanks and vessels) to be effective all game long. High tech units are not core units, but should in most cases support the core units such that core + tech should always beat core without tech.
@ Bio Vs Mech: I guess "cost-effective" was the wrong word to use.
Pros of bio: More mobile, should be able to secure more expansions early on compared to a mech player. (I am not a terran player, but this not true?)
Cons: The general army is weaker, less cost-effective.
This is what would be nice, and that the reaper / ghost brings (or can bring): The Bio force can actually engage small clumps of tanks / vultures with some good micro, but not without losses. Hopefully this is not too cost effective, or there is no point in going mech at all.
Please try it. Use the Ghost and / or Reaper in TvT and maybe even TvZ (the reapers....)
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On May 05 2013 22:21 Hider wrote:
My point is that there needs to be a significant difference in cost effectiveness between mech and bio heavy late game in order to incentivize the late game transition. But obviously as you point out the optimal strategy will depend on the map
The best way to accomblish that is to make Mech vulnerble in start and to some extent in low numbers. Mech in WOL was beaten by timings, that is where most attempts at meching stoped. It didn't lose because its late game army was weaker it lost because during the build-up of mech armies there was times where it was so weak that it couldn't hold against pushes. Bio-tank lived and breathed on that principle. The safety of early bio and the strength of late game tanks and vikings.
Another thing you could look at if you want this transition would be the cost and time upgrades takes. It is well known, that one of the thing keeping Terran players back from using all their arsenal is their Split upgrades. Maybe it could be smoothed out.
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On May 05 2013 23:20 Xiphias wrote:
...and dark swarm sometimes forces mech (vultures + mines are great vs lurkers / DS).
@ Meta-game: I have few preferences in how the meta-game should be for each match-up, but there should always be the choice between eco, army and tech (sometimes you combine them to some extent ofc). And the tech choice should pay off if you can stay alive. That's why I don't want bio (pure bio without tanks and vessels) to be effective all game long. High tech units are not core units, but should in most cases support the core units such that core + tech should always beat core without tech.
@ Bio Vs Mech: I guess "cost-effective" was the wrong word to use.
Pros of bio: More mobile, should be able to secure more expansions early on compared to a mech player. (I am not a terran player, but this not true?)
Cons: The general army is weaker, less cost-effective.
This is what would be nice, and that the reaper / ghost brings (or can bring): The Bio force can actually engage small clumps of tanks / vultures with some good micro, but not without losses. Hopefully this is not too cost effective, or there is no point in going mech at all.
Please try it. Use the Ghost and / or Reaper in TvT and maybe even TvZ (the reapers....)
I am not really sure if you answer my question. Could you be a bit more specific regarding TvZ late game? Do you want to see terrans transitioning from bio heavy play into mech in the late game? We never see that in Sc2 as mech isn't signifcantly more cost efficient than bio heavy play as long as your unit control is good. I think Starbow may have made bio heavy play stronger due to matrix which possible could result in the tech-transition into mech not being efficient (it requires more testing though).
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On May 05 2013 23:25 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 22:21 Hider wrote:
My point is that there needs to be a significant difference in cost effectiveness between mech and bio heavy late game in order to incentivize the late game transition. But obviously as you point out the optimal strategy will depend on the map The best way to accomblish that is to make Mech vulnerble in start and to some extent in low numbers. Mech in WOL was beaten by timings, that is where most attempts at meching stoped. It didn't lose because its late game army was weaker it lost because during the build-up of mech armies there was times where it was so weak that it couldn't hold against pushes. Bio-tank lived and breathed on that principle. The safety of early bio and the strength of late game tanks and vikings. Another thing you could look at if you want this transition would be the cost and time upgrades takes. It is well known, that one of the thing keeping Terran players back from using all their arsenal is their Split upgrades. Maybe it could be smoothed out.
I don't really agree. Mech TvP obviously sucked unless you went for 170 supply army (sacking scvs), ravens, ghosts, bc's w/e (ultimative deathball army). Early game though wasn't really the core problem.
Mech TvZ can some times be a bit coinflippy (if you go early mass hellions your vulernable to roach timings), however ultimately mech tvz was very similar to bio tvz as you had a less mobile army than the opponent and you would be vulernabe to broodlord/infestor in the late game.
Mech TvT is quite easy in WOL to play untill you try to take your 4th.
But your correct though, mech should be more difficult to play early game. You should need to take expos later (in all matchups). Whether that is completely case in all matchups is something that needs to be tested more.
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Avoiding answers like a true politician... 
What I am trying to say is that I don't really care if you have to transition completely to mech, but that sooner or later you need to add more tech. Maybe the meta-game will evolve into late-game mech like it did in BW (remember, mech late-game Vs Zerg in BW was a fairly recent meta-change), or maybe you can stay on bio.
We are not trying to make the game in such a way as to force terran to go mech late-game Vs Zerg to win, but we are trying (or at least, I am) trying to make sure lower tier units cannot win in the late-game without support from higher tier units. I don't mind if the meta evolves into mech-terran late-game, but we are not aiming for it to happen. Hope that answers your question.
Also, please keep in mind the until about 1-2 weeks ago I had very few ideas in how to make Starbow progress since Kabel was staring the ship. I've been doing A LOT of thinking since then and my mind is not 100% made up yet on certain issues and I try to stay as open as possible. (Except the tempest.. DIE DIE DIE!!!) :D
Do not over-analyse my statements. Feel free to add me on skype btw if you want to (civilly) discuss any matter further. My skype ID is: joakii0605
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Unit test map "Starbow tester" Updated!
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On May 06 2013 01:10 JohnnyZerg wrote:
Unit test map "Starbow tester" Updated!
Thanks!
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Dec: Regarding 150 minerals OC's. Is it intentional that upgrading to it isn't really efficient before your saturated on 2 bases (and have invested 400 minerals on a 3rd) or do you disagree with me on my assesment (do you think its worth upgrading to earlier)?.
Pre hots patch it costed 100 minerals which I felt offered more interesting BO variations as it was a somewhat fair price.
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It did? hmmm I have suggested a 100 mineral Orbital (after some discussion here) for the patch after the tournament. We have not resolved the issue 100% but I think you'll see that soon. Whenever I have time and energy I plan to do some serious math around scv-calldown and queen inject ability compared to chrono boost.
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It used to cost 100 minerals for the most part of my Starbow "career". I totally didn't get the change.
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On May 06 2013 04:07 Xiphias wrote:
It did? hmmm I have suggested a 100 mineral Orbital (after some discussion here) for the patch after the tournament. We have not resolved the issue 100% but I think you'll see that soon. Whenever I have time and energy I plan to do some serious math around scv-calldown and queen inject ability compared to chrono boost.
I think math has already been done on this issue?
Anyway, another unresolved issue. What should happen to the viking/banshee. At the moment both of them have very niche roles and the viking isn't really very exciting when used. I feel like there are 3 options;
1) Keep them as they are, as it is not really a huge problem (it doesn't screw up anything else in the game).
2) Remove viking and replace it with a modified version of the wraith (my suggestion).
3) Redesign viking to make it more exciting to watch and make banshees slightly more microable/faster (Danko's suggestion).
What are your thoughts on this issue? Personally I feel that Starbow is at the point where we shouldn't be satifised with "boring/little used" units. Let us be more ambitious than tat.
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We are going to rework viking / banshee in the next patch. We won't make any more (significant) changes until after the tournament.
We'll change Orbital to 100 min np.
I am going to make the brackets soon, there are still more room to join (some players are unsure if they can actually make it) so feel free to JOIN!!!
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There is a cliff bug on purple storm where groud units can jump through the cliff like it was a reaper.
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On May 06 2013 04:37 Hider wrote:
Anyway, another unresolved issue. What should happen to the viking/banshee. At the moment both of them have very niche roles and the viking isn't really very exciting when used. I feel like there are 3 options;
1) Keep them as they are, as it is not really a huge problem (it doesn't screw up anything else in the game).
2) Remove viking and replace it with a modified version of the wraith (my suggestion).
3) Redesign viking to make it more exciting to watch and make banshees slightly more microable/faster (Danko's suggestion).
What are your thoughts on this issue? Personally I feel that Starbow is at the point where we shouldn't be satifised with "boring/little used" units. Let us be more ambitious than tat.
What is the firebat doing then, with its Monorole of killing lings?... Corsairs with their... Actually those guys don't do anything. If it comes to cleaning out boring units then i would personally think there are higher priorities than vikings atm. But on to the topic.
Starbow does have stronger Anti-air but Terran Air is largely unchanged even through it poses little treat even to current SC2 armies. The simple to try first would be to straight up make Terran Air more dangerous.
In the campaign Banshees had a straight line AOE attack, which i think could be transferred to Starbow. Maybe as a special Attack that costs energy. But if it was an ability it would not scale with Upgrades.
The viking... i don't know really. It overlaps so much with the Goliath it almost isn't funny, i mean don't get me wrong the viking is the more versatile unit, if it could be as strong as a goliath in ground form i would take it over an actual Goliath any time. But in a world where Goliath have to exist, i don't know if vikings should too.
I don't think trashing both for a Wraith would be a good idea through. The Wraith is to me even more niche with being able to just stealth and take out all sorts of detection while doing so. Its combat stats would have to be weaker then the Viking and the Banshee individually and thus probably end up being even less of a treat.
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On May 06 2013 05:49 Xiphias wrote:
I am going to make the brackets soon, there are still more room to join (some players are unsure if they can actually make it) so feel free to JOIN!!!
Speaking of which... Not sure if I can actually make it on Saturday, so it'd probably be better if I weren't in the brackets but rather a potential substitute #_#
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On May 06 2013 06:08 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 04:37 Hider wrote:
Anyway, another unresolved issue. What should happen to the viking/banshee. At the moment both of them have very niche roles and the viking isn't really very exciting when used. I feel like there are 3 options;
1) Keep them as they are, as it is not really a huge problem (it doesn't screw up anything else in the game).
2) Remove viking and replace it with a modified version of the wraith (my suggestion).
3) Redesign viking to make it more exciting to watch and make banshees slightly more microable/faster (Danko's suggestion).
What are your thoughts on this issue? Personally I feel that Starbow is at the point where we shouldn't be satifised with "boring/little used" units. Let us be more ambitious than tat. What is the firebat doing then, with its Monorole of killing lings?... Corsairs with their... Actually those guys don't do anything. If it comes to cleaning out boring units then i would personally think there are higher priorities than vikings atm. But on to the topic. Starbow does have stronger Anti-air but Terran Air is largely unchanged even through it poses little treat even to current SC2 armies. The simple to try first would be to straight up make Terran Air more dangerous. In the campaign Banshees had a straight line AOE attack, which i think could be transferred to Starbow. Maybe as a special Attack that costs energy. But if it was an ability it would not scale with Upgrades. The viking... i don't know really. It overlaps so much with the Goliath it almost isn't funny, i mean don't get me wrong the viking is the more versatile unit, if it could be as strong as a goliath in ground form i would take it over an actual Goliath any time. But in a world where Goliath have to exist, i don't know if vikings should too. I don't think trashing both for a Wraith would be a good idea through. The Wraith is to me even more niche with being able to just stealth and take out all sorts of detection while doing so. Its combat stats would have to be weaker then the Viking and the Banshee individually and thus probably end up being even less of a treat.
I'd say Firebats and corsais (phoenix seems like obvious replacement) are in the same boat as vikings and banshees - Just plain boring.
Wraiths does indeed have a niche role, but its an interesting unit as it is very micro intensive and micro rewarding.
Viking has a niche role (but its a boring one) along with bio in tvz vs mass muta's. Replacing it with the wraith could make mass mutas really really good vs terran. So maybe the viking will need to stay but its attack-ability should be more interesting and reward micro skill from both the opponent and the terran player.
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What is the firebat doing then, with its Monorole of killing lings?
Firebat gotta be reworked, just nobody really came up with good solution.
Corsairs with their... Actually those guys don't do anything.
Thats not like that. They are just straight up underpowered. Their damage was lowered from 5 to 3 in quite short amount of time and their aoe is terrible. But once they are be buffed to level they are supposed to be then they will be used more often again. They can dominate skies quite easly due to speed and dps combined with aoe and also pick off single targets, even like tanks.
In the campaign Banshees had a straight line AOE attack, which i think could be transferred to Starbow. Maybe as a special Attack that costs energy. But if it was an ability it would not scale with Upgrades.
I have suggested aoe attack for banshees couple of times, but i do think we should change them step by step, and first one should be tweaking speed and dps.
And viking vs goliath was problematic in every version of starbow in which these units coexisted. But i believe at some point someone will come up with brilliant idea.
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On May 06 2013 06:38 Danko__ wrote:Firebat gotta be reworked, just nobody really came up with good solution.
The simple solution would be a boost to allow the Firebat to do something Anti-mechanical since it currently have little to no use in the matchups where mechanical Units exist, and at the same time those same matchups are where Bio currently struggles. I have talked alot about this in the past. To make a recap:
The Firebat/Marauder hybrid:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=244#4872
And the most Recent "Haywire Round".
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=264#5274
Basicly something to allow firebats to do damage to at least a small number of Tanks.
But nope it gotta be the reapers. "Alright guys, we have the least amount of HP of any Bio unit, that is why WE were selected to be the ones to get close to the heavy AOE machines over yonder. Alright i am told our SVs have disabled their attack, sure hope that is true, lets go guys YOLO!"
At least that is what i imagen the reaper commander telling his comrades when the order for a bombing run comes through.
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Another cliff bug at the atlas map. The cliff right next to the 3rd SV position.
Also I am definitely certain that tanks get stuck more easily than they do in Sc2. I suppose it has something to do with unit movement maybe.
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EPT
