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Hi guys!!!!
Just some thoughts, most of which I haven't had a chance to talk to xiphias too much about.
@Orbital Command
It was indeed 100 pre HOTS, didn't get changed during transition. It is fixed on my local file, but the next patch isn't uploaded yet. Still waiting to find a few more bugs (and believe me there will be) before I upload. In addition reapers are being changed to 1 supply, there is absolutely no reason to justify them being 2.
@Corsair
Right now we have corsairs moving at 4.25, scourge as well, muta at 3.75. Scourge and Corsair are up from 3.75. Corsair can also moving shot. This allows micro vs muta (but not the stupid easy pheonix micro from hots). The problem is their burst damage is so damn low. They only out range muta's by 1, so if they exchange volleys with muta, the muta comes out ahead due to mutalisk burst damage being higher. I think increasing their burst damage (increased damage, slower attack speed) would be an absolutely welcome change.
@firebat
I'm diggin dankos suggestion on this. More straight forward, shorter aoe line, but simply stronger attack.
I'd love to see the firebat in a role where it can actually be a front line combat unit, not just a ling sweeper. This would allow for more counterplay vs dark swarm (firebats to counter hydras in swarm). I don't think it would rock the meta, just make the firebat more interesting and less of a one man ling counter.
@Banshee
I think my current favorite plan for this unit is giving it 0 damage point (moving shot), a burst cloak for escape, and finally a speed upgrade. I feel like the unit stats for this unit is pretty solid. It can barely escape from non-blink stalkers. The damage isn't op or under powered. I think its a pretty fun harassment unit. With a speed upgrade this unit could be able to at least run away from the other races air units if acting quickly enough.
@Viking and Irradiate
Right now irradiate isn't incredibly good at aoe role. Mutas spread out automatically. Unit pathing makes targetting banelings not a big deal.
It is mainly for killing ultras and casters.
Bio is incredibly good vs mutalisks however (not as good as they were when unit pathing was not in). Goliaths and turrets can handle muta switches pretty well as long as they are expected. When muta groups get way too big there isn't really good splash answers for Terran. Toss has corsairs, storm, and archons. I'm not too sure this is a problem, but we could re-add the viking splash. I'm hard pressed to find a role for the viking though. Goliaths are Terrans form of heavy anti air damage (as it should be, being ground based so terrain plays a part).
We could honestly scrap the viking if irradiate was better. That could get out of hand vs armies way too easily so I don't think that is an ideal solution.
How about this idea.
Viking as just a support anti air unit. Large splash, but relatively low damage (it isn't going to kill mutas on its own, but soften them up for other units to kill them). It could still be used to clear overlords. Essentially a valkyerie role. Until someone comes up with a better idea I'm really not sure what else we could do with this unit.
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On May 06 2013 07:31 Hider wrote:
Another cliff bug at the atlas map. The cliff right next to the 3rd SV position.
Also I am definitely certain that tanks get stuck more easily than they do in Sc2. I suppose it has something to do with unit movement maybe.
Have a replay?
I can check into that.
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On May 06 2013 07:40 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 07:31 Hider wrote:
Another cliff bug at the atlas map. The cliff right next to the 3rd SV position.
Also I am definitely certain that tanks get stuck more easily than they do in Sc2. I suppose it has something to do with unit movement maybe. Have a replay? I can check into that.
http://drop.sc/331065
11:50
Also note 19:20 at my base. Tank would never be stuck in such a postion in Sc2.
Banshee and Corsair seems like good changes. Firebat, do you plan to buff HP to make it more of a tanky unit?
Regarding irradiate. What about trying to change that a bit too make it better as a heavy muta play counter?
I think these couple of changes could help;
- Reduce damage so that it doesn't "one-click kills lurkers".
- Increase AOE.
- Decrease energy cost to 50 (optional but I think it might be neccesary as heavy muta play will be too strong in situations where you just have 4-6 SV's with 5-7 irradiates avaialable. At 50 energy you will be able to have a few more irradiates which will make it a sligthly more reliable counter).
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@replay
Oi. Can't actually load it up without crashing on EU and NA.
Try to recreate the blocking. Was it on a unit or a structure or terrain?
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On May 06 2013 06:38 Danko__ wrote:Show nested quote +In the campaign Banshees had a straight line AOE attack, which i think could be transferred to Starbow. Maybe as a special Attack that costs energy. But if it was an ability it would not scale with Upgrades. I have suggested aoe attack for banshees couple of times, but i do think we should change them step by step, and first one should be tweaking speed and dps. And viking vs goliath was problematic in every version of starbow in which these units coexisted. But i believe at some point someone will come up with brilliant idea.
You cannot give Banshees an AoE attack. How many times do I need to explain to everyone the Golden Rule of AoE - it does not go on mobile units, or it does not have range, AND it usually has another drawback.
- Siege Tanks have to siege and can friendly fire.
- Lurkers have to burrow and can be dodged.
- Spider Mines have to be deployed and are one-shot and can be sniped and can friendly fire.
- Firebats are melee range and directional.
- Banelings are melee range and one-shot.
- Ultralisks are melee range and directional.
- Reavers are extremely slow and have to build scarabs which cost minerals.
- Psi Storm costs energy and is DoT.
- Plague costs a lot of energy, is DoT, and cannot kill.
- Archons have practically no splash and are almost melee range.
- Planetary Fortress is immobile.
- EMP only affects shields.
- Reaper charges have a long detonation time and can be avoided.
- All other AoE attacks can't hit ground targets.
Am I missing anything?
Anything which breaks these rules (See: Colossus) is, most probably, bad for the game.
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@ Irradiate.
I do not mind irradiate being not as good as in BW. It is pretty much the "solve-it-all" spell vs Zerg and sometimes feel like the "broodlord-infestor" of TvZ (if you get enough, you are fine).
Irriadiate is alredy good vs spellcasters, ultralisk and especially lurkers (they gat killed with one irr) and it's only 75 enenrgy. It is still good vs mutalisks, but not great.
This puts me in favour of a viking with more hp, more expencive (maybe even requre tech-lab? Maybe move banshee off tech lab if it comes with a very short cloak that does not require ersearch hmmmm....) good spalsh dmg. In other words, a viking that can deal with great numbers of mutalisk if you can get 2-3 of them, and 1 can also deal great dmg if supported by marines / goliath, BUT they should be able to be picked off by scourge if you support the scourge with mutalisk. (Making for some cool micro battles.)
This will eccentially be a valkyrie (that can land) but I'm fine with that.
With this viking I think we should have a faster, lighter banshee with a very light AA attack and a lighter ATG attack, that is more mobile but defently still an harasser (The AA attack can be use to pick off stray overlords, but it would take longer than the current viking to do so, it could also scan an pick off observers). It should only have a 3-5 sec cloak, that does not requre research to be used to either 1. Get into the mineral line undetected, or 2. Escape if they don't have detection to come back later. It should probably have a cooldown of 20-30 sec. It should also be "wraith - microable" And like mantioned earlier, maybe even off techlab, since it is more fragile and maybe viking may now require a tech lab.
Thoughts?
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On May 06 2013 09:51 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 06:38 Danko__ wrote:In the campaign Banshees had a straight line AOE attack, which i think could be transferred to Starbow. Maybe as a special Attack that costs energy. But if it was an ability it would not scale with Upgrades. I have suggested aoe attack for banshees couple of times, but i do think we should change them step by step, and first one should be tweaking speed and dps. And viking vs goliath was problematic in every version of starbow in which these units coexisted. But i believe at some point someone will come up with brilliant idea. You cannot give Banshees an AoE attack. How many times do I need to explain to everyone the Golden Rule of AoE - it does not go on mobile units, or it does not have range, AND it usually has another drawback. - Siege Tanks have to siege and can friendly fire. - Lurkers have to burrow and can be dodged. - Spider Mines have to be deployed and are one-shot and can be sniped and can friendly fire. - Firebats are melee range and directional. - Banelings are melee range and one-shot. - Ultralisks are melee range and directional. - Reavers are extremely slow and have to build scarabs which cost minerals. - Psi Storm costs energy and is DoT. - Plague costs a lot of energy, is DoT, and cannot kill. - Archons have practically no splash and are almost melee range. - Planetary Fortress is immobile. - EMP only affects shields. - Reaper charges have a long detonation time and can be avoided. - All other AoE attacks can't hit ground targets. Am I missing anything? Anything which breaks these rules (See: Colossus) is, most probably, bad for the game.
The AOE of Banshees was directional aswell, it wasn't just throwing huge clusters of bombs down. Also in case you forgot, Banshees does have energy to use if that is a cost it must pay for AOE. There are posibilities to follow these rules.
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On May 06 2013 14:57 Xiphias wrote:
@ Irradiate.
I do not mind irradiate being not as good as in BW. It is pretty much the "solve-it-all" spell vs Zerg and sometimes feel like the "broodlord-infestor" of TvZ (if you get enough, you are fine).
Irriadiate is alredy good vs spellcasters, ultralisk and especially lurkers (they gat killed with one irr) and it's only 75 enenrgy. It is still good vs mutalisks, but not great.
This puts me in favour of a viking with more hp, more expencive (maybe even requre tech-lab? Maybe move banshee off tech lab if it comes with a very short cloak that does not require ersearch hmmmm....) good spalsh dmg. In other words, a viking that can deal with great numbers of mutalisk if you can get 2-3 of them, and 1 can also deal great dmg if supported by marines / goliath, BUT they should be able to be picked off by scourge if you support the scourge with mutalisk. (Making for some cool micro battles.)
This will eccentially be a valkyrie (that can land) but I'm fine with that.
With this viking I think we should have a faster, lighter banshee with a very light AA attack and a lighter ATG attack, that is more mobile but defently still an harasser (The AA attack can be use to pick off stray overlords, but it would take longer than the current viking to do so, it could also scan an pick off observers). It should only have a 3-5 sec cloak, that does not requre research to be used to either 1. Get into the mineral line undetected, or 2. Escape if they don't have detection to come back later. It should probably have a cooldown of 20-30 sec. It should also be "wraith - microable" And like mantioned earlier, maybe even off techlab, since it is more fragile and maybe viking may now require a tech lab.
Thoughts?
Viking can just as easily be picked up by mutaslisks as scourges? So you will always need marines to cover the vikings regardless of whether its just pure mutas or mutas + scourges.
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On May 06 2013 09:36 decemberscalm wrote:
@replay
Oi. Can't actually load it up without crashing on EU and NA.
Try to recreate the blocking. Was it on a unit or a structure or terrain?
It just got stuck between two structures that didn't even seem that close to each other.
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On May 06 2013 16:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 09:36 decemberscalm wrote:
@replay
Oi. Can't actually load it up without crashing on EU and NA.
Try to recreate the blocking. Was it on a unit or a structure or terrain? It just got stuck between two structures that didn't even seem that close to each other.
Did it slow down or literally just stop moving. The unit pathing doesn't occur due to structures, and when unit pathing does trigger it only slows down units.
I'll check unit radius's.
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And we will increase HP of droship...
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Regarding vikings role vs mutas in TvZ.
If you don't get vikings vs mass mass mutas then you will probably never be able to leave your base untill like the 25th+ minute mark which makes for turtlish games. An anti air splash damage unit allows the terran player to move out as he can use the vikings to defend against mutalisk counter attacks.
However, I wonder if there is any way we can make this a more interesting dynamic (rather than just vikings a-moving mutalisks, and mutalisks a moving vikings).
If vikings primary role is to defend against mutalisks counterattacks, what about giving it some kind of defensive splash damage anti air "trap", which severely would reduce the threat of mutalisks counterattaks?
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On May 06 2013 18:57 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings role vs mutas in TvZ.
If you don't get vikings vs mass mass mutas then you will probably never be able to leave your base untill like the 25th+ minute mark which makes for turtlish games. An anti air splash damage unit allows the terran player to move out as he can use the vikings to defend against mutalisk counter attacks.
However, I wonder if there is any way we can make this a more interesting dynamic (rather than just vikings a-moving mutalisks, and mutalisks a moving vikings).
If vikings primary role is to defend against mutalisks counterattacks, what about giving it some kind of defensive splash damage anti air "trap", which severely would reduce the threat of mutalisks counterattaks?
What about Marines or Ghosts? Snipe is 50 damage vs light, am I wrong? The strength lies against Units with very low HP per cost(such as Brood lords, hence the nerf). But Mutas too are very expensive for their HP. Buffing the range or damage of Ghosts might bring that more interesting Muta counter.
And what you are talking about is essentially what the Widow mine is. And it have done a good Job in HOTS keeping Muta players honest. But probably too boring for Starbow.
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On May 06 2013 19:22 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 18:57 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings role vs mutas in TvZ.
If you don't get vikings vs mass mass mutas then you will probably never be able to leave your base untill like the 25th+ minute mark which makes for turtlish games. An anti air splash damage unit allows the terran player to move out as he can use the vikings to defend against mutalisk counter attacks.
However, I wonder if there is any way we can make this a more interesting dynamic (rather than just vikings a-moving mutalisks, and mutalisks a moving vikings).
If vikings primary role is to defend against mutalisks counterattacks, what about giving it some kind of defensive splash damage anti air "trap", which severely would reduce the threat of mutalisks counterattaks? What about Marines or Ghosts? Snipe is 50 damage vs light, am I wrong? The strength lies against Units with very low HP per cost(such as Brood lords, hence the nerf). But Mutas too are very expensive for their HP. Buffing the range or damage of Ghosts might bring that more interesting Muta counter. And what you are talking about is essentially what the Widow mine is. And it have done a good Job in HOTS keeping Muta players honest. But probably too boring for Starbow.
Marines and ghosts doesn't give the terran the opportunity to move out of against 40 mutalisks.
Widow mine is too supply inefficient too be used as a defensive unit. Also my suggestion is an only "AA splash damage trap", unlike widow mines.
I am thinking of something like this; Each viking has one "trap", which deals like 50 splash damage. The trap activates when units are within a radius of 7. So since you only can set up one trap per viking you have to think about it very carefully. And unlike widow mines these traps won't "one-shot" kill a single mutalisk, but it will do a lot of total damage to big groups, o you will be able to defend against a mutalisk counterattack wiith a group of marines + turrets and some traps while moving out with your main army.
EDIT: The ghost could be given that trap instead, which would make it possible to remove the viking.
Btw terran never needed widow mines in Sc2. in Sc2 mineral income is much higher which means terrans can produce a lot more marines and turrets to defend against mutalisks + they have thors. In Starbow, however, terran needs something to defend against heavy mutalisk play.
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I propose to stabilize the situation viking / goliath. The attempt has been made many times, but every time it was done in the wrong way.
Give at goliath, thor attack, but with less damage and range. Through an upgrade, the range can be increased.
Make viking as sc2 viking. Bc should attack fastest as sc2.
In this way Terran has 3 strategy:
Bio + air support
Mech + air support
Bio + Mech + air support
Why is that??
If enemy comes to high-tech (high cost) and creates T3 air units, need to create air units and achieve air superiority to win.
In summary
Bio has marines strong vs air units with few hp and without armor.
Mech has goliath strong vs light air units (thor attack).
Terran Air units has viking strong vs armored air units (anti capital ship).
Bcs are very strong vs light air units. That surpasses that of bio and mech justified by its high-cost and tech.
All this also makes interesting "Goliaths vs Carriers":
Currently The player terran must try to maintain compact goliath, to increase the dps/m2, while the protoss tries to keep the stacked carriers (for increased dps/m2).
If goliath make splash damage vs good light units (bad vs carriers), this combat changes:
Protoss cannot afford to keep the carriers stacked, splash damage, by goliath, they could become effective vs carriers, while goliath must focus on interceptors: If goliath are compact, interceptors attack different goliaths taking a greater area, thwarting splash damage (by goliath). Goliaths not attack interceptors but carriers if the latter (carriers) are too close. The terran must try to maintain separate goliaths, so that interceptors can focus a single goliath, and the Latter (goliaths) can attack all interceptors on targeted goliath.
This is micro, I tried it personally and it works. Another usage of the viking can be that to destroy warp prism, without the need to fill the base full of turrets.
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All this also makes interesting "Goliaths vs Carriers":
Sc2 vikings will counter carriers. Thus no need to get goliaths.
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On May 06 2013 21:10 Hider wrote:Sc2 vikings will counter carriers. Thus no need to get goliaths.
Mass vikings can counter mass carriers (although I have my doubts), but i think that terran not make a mass of vikings. 10 viking are good for support, but by themselves do not do much, their real task will be to stave off carriers so that goliaths can hit interceptors, while protoss can carrier being hit by goliaths, it is good (because goliath is few efficient vs carrier if not stacked, but strong vs interceptors).
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"Mines" seems to be the new trend  Vultures, reapers, nullifiers AND vikings....
I like your idea though HideR, we'll see if it can be more exciting. On the other hand, not every unit must have a tricky ability. We might try a "normal" valkyre first and then try to make it more interesting later. I'll let the thought marinade in my pickeled brain.
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On May 06 2013 21:26 Xiphias wrote:"Mines" seems to be the new trend Vultures, reapers, nullifiers AND vikings.... I like your idea though HideR, we'll see if it can be more exciting. On the other hand, not every unit must have a tricky ability. We might try a "normal" valkyre first and then try to make it more interesting later. I'll let the thought marinade in my pickeled brain.
I just don't see how Valkyries will make it more exciting than vikings? Isn't it still goanna be mutas and valkyires (with a bit of marine support) a-moving each other?
Mass vikings can counter mass carriers (although I have my doubts), but i think that terran not make a mass of vikings. 10 viking are good for support, but by themselves do not do much, their real task will be to stave off carriers so that goliaths can hit interceptors, while protoss can carrier being hit by goliaths, it is good (because goliath is few efficient vs carrier if not stacked, but strong vs interceptors).
If you implement sc2 vikings then it will definitely make carriers kinda bad. And the fact that terrans can counter them even harder by adding in goliaths will just make carriers even worse.
Another problem is that guardians/broodlords vs vikings is just stupidly boring. I definitely prefer ground units to counter big tier 3 units and goliaths do that job at the moment.
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The problem with Terran air is in its core one unit: the Goliath.
The problems coes from the fact that this unit does such a good job that all other units has to account for it. Its great at anti capital duty, does fine versus mass light air and is well suited for sniping important flying casters. The obvious ansver to this versitility would be to nerf one of these aspects, but then we have another problem - the Goliath has such a good design that we would make the game less if we changed it. It is great versus capital ships, but only with solid micro. It performs well against Mutalisks and other mass air, but only in critical numbers. To snipe important casters or drops it has to be well positioned, often away from the protection of the static siege tanks.
The fact that the Goliath is such a good unit is actually a problem, because Terrans also need some form of AtA unit to round out the lineup with the versitile generalist Goliath and the cheap mobile marine. If we make the AtA outperform the Goliath in one of its tasks it will be so specialized that AtA will be lacking in one aspect, and the unit itself will be somewhat boring and mostly a counter-unit. If we make the unit a generalist AtA - It can never be as stong as the goliath because of the better mobility, and as such is actually an inferior unit.
Broodwas solved this problem by splitting the AtA of terrans into two seperate units - where one was rarely used. SC2 has solved it by redesigning the golitah into the stupid Thor - horribly gutting the versitility and micro potential, but opening the space for a generalist AtA unit (viking).
The question is, how does StarBow solve the problem of the Goliath.
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EPT
