|
On May 07 2013 18:42 Danko__ wrote:
Hider, to pump out vultures that fast in bw you had to invest much more in infrastructure.
But on the other hand I do think 4 range 75/25 vultures are not gonna be op. We can give it a try.
Current pathing seems to be affecting mostly traveling on map. Imho we should make it bit less effective at surrounding (higher slow value after bumping into another unit).
True but I wouldn't mind an increase in building time to compensate.
|
Ah right I forgot about Reactors...
I like the idea of an increased build time in exchange for lower minerals. No gas cost should be necessary for Vultures. But please, don't make it 85 - we can't have only one unit in the entire game have a resource cost that breaks the 25 increment pattern, that's just silly.
|
Changing from 100 to 75 incrises DPS/Cost*100 with almost 2 points... That made little sense....
K, cost vs dps wise, the vulture goes from being as good as the firebat to much better than a siege tank in siege mode, still horribly worse than a marine. But, build time can make sure it won't be too imba.
|
New patch is up. Just on EU for now (general SC2 patch is keeping us from patching NA).
There are reasons for every change, but no room to include all of them here.
+ Show Spoiler +- Vulture: 75 minerals, 20 dmg vs light, 1.75 weapon speed.
- Zerg Creep gives roughly more than double the default life regeneration. Before it was actually 5.5 times higher than default, causing weird things like +1 zealot timing attacks to not work.
- Tank size - too big. They get stuck in choke at Xiphias Pass: Reduced to .875 of size. Inner radius reduced to .75.
- Reaver now obeys attack commands after being unloaded from a warp prism.
Damage point for the reaver weapon is now .25 to allow for target firing (before it simply attacked and players did not have a chance to target fire, hence kabel had the reaver attack disabled for 1.5 seconds after unloading).
- After rift teleports units back to the nexus, they are left vulnerable (unable to attack or move but are attackle) for five seconds so rift isn’t abusable for free anti harass, but instead to rescue units.
- Corsair attack radius is now fraction 1 at 1 radius. Fraction .75 at 2 radius. Before it was .5 at 1 radius and .25 at 2 radius, causing the corsair to basically have a useless aoe. + 1 armor (This makes crossairs actually good vs large number of mutalisks)
- Overseer speed nerfed to 1 from 1.2. Lair grants the same speed.
- Up HP on dropship to 150
- OC changed to 100 min cost.
- Reaper now costs 1 supply from 2
- Tank weapon icon fixed
- Immortal research removed
- Reaver icon positon moved
- Stasis tool tip error fixed
Map changes:
- Squares of Starbow now has a differnet main / nat layout, making harassment possible. Also less dead-space (still a lot...)
- Purple storm, some bugs fixed, but this map might still have some bugs.
- Xiphias Pass - gas bug fixed.
- Starbow Ridge - no blink between third and main base.
|
|
|
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
At last I have to ask what is the plan regarding excessive gas. I personally like the fact that I can use a variety of gasheavy spellcasters along with my main army as it increases the skill cap. But maybe the gas income is just a bit too much.
|
Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
@Corsair
I tried the corsairs vs mutalisks with this patch, and now they are good against Mutalisks if it make micro. But I found an interesting "bug", corsair make friendly splash damage. This causes the zerg can take advantage of splash damage, sending mutalisks on corsairs themselves. The Protoss is forced to run away and make micro.
I tried corsairs vs hydralisks, corsairs are too strong, maybe is necessary reduce weapon cooldow or main damage.
|
On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage.
@PF, harassment defense
Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well.
Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf.
Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so).
I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC.
|
I can't login to EU until EU b.net patches 
|
On May 08 2013 06:14 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage. @PF, harassment defense Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well. Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf. Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so). I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC.
Regarding that. My concern with OC is that it has very little utility late game. You need them for scans but having 2 is kinda enough. So I feel like I will always choose planetaries as my 3rd+. I wouldn't mind a bit more competition (upgraded OC late game utility).
A 4th OC ability would be awesome (cus I kinda like all of the 3 options which currently are avaiable).
Anyway here is another idea; Planetary mode is now avaiable at every CC and OC, however to activate it once you have to pay 100/100. Duration and CD is the same as before.
|
On May 08 2013 06:08 JohnnyZerg wrote:
I tried corsairs vs hydralisks, corsairs are too strong, maybe is necessary reduce weapon cooldow or main damage.
Corsair is 150/75/2, while hydras 75/25/1. Even if you somehow miraculously manage to trade them 1v1, you lost like double on minerals and triple on gas.
Corsair cant attack unlifted units and therefore cant attack structures. Would it be hard to just... I dont know... build crawlers for base defence?
Please stop joking! What good unit does stargate have, that can be used vs hydras. None. Not even corsair. So please, at least, if someone invests into corsaires and meets hydra switch tech, allow me to kill 2-3 hydras with those 4 corsaires I have from overlord harass in defence.
|
On May 08 2013 07:06 FreeTossCZComentary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:08 JohnnyZerg wrote:
I tried corsairs vs hydralisks, corsairs are too strong, maybe is necessary reduce weapon cooldow or main damage. Corsair is 150/75/2, while hydras 75/25/1. Even if you somehow miraculously manage to trade them 1v1, you lost like double on minerals and triple on gas. Corsair cant attack unlifted units and therefore cant attack structures. Would it be hard to just... I dont know... build crawlers for base defence? Please stop joking! What good unit does stargate have, that can be used vs hydras. None. Not even corsair. So please, at least, if someone invests into corsaires and meets hydra switch tech, allow me to kill 2-3 hydras with those 4 corsaires I have from overlord harass in defence.
This might be totally broken but what about graviton beam being a small aoe. It would allow corsairs to be useful in fights against units like hydras and add a harass options to stargate that so many people want (beyond overlord harrass that is)
|
If Queens are too effective AA, reduce their AA range to 4 (same as vs ground). The range was necessary in WoL/HotS because Hydras were a T2 unit - with our basic ranged unit back in their correct place in the tech tree we don't have that issue.
|
|
|
On May 08 2013 07:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 06:14 decemberscalm wrote:On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage. @PF, harassment defense Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well. Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf. Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so). I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC. Regarding that. My concern with OC is that it has very little utility late game. You need them for scans but having 2 is kinda enough. So I feel like I will always choose planetaries as my 3rd+. I wouldn't mind a bit more competition (upgraded OC late game utility). A 4th OC ability would be awesome (cus I kinda like all of the 3 options which currently are avaiable). Anyway here is another idea; Planetary mode is now avaiable at every CC and OC, however to activate it once you have to pay 100/100. Duration and CD is the same as before.
I am not a huge fan of having these abilities that require payment for each unlock, and i could also see bugs if you would choose to upgrade a CC that had made this upgrade to an OC.
What i would suggest for a start is that planetary becomes an ability on the default CC, through it does require a one-time upgrade from the engineering bay to use(because Planetary rushes are lame). Then add something to the OC so that not upgrading a CC is sufficiant cost.
Overall through i do feel it is the wrong approach with timed attacks, because regardless it will almost always be avaliable when you need it, thus removing the point. You can't drop if a good chunk of the units are already in position, and they will always make their way in the time the planetary is up. I can't see a good solution with this approuch.
|
On May 08 2013 07:52 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:03 Hider wrote:On May 08 2013 06:14 decemberscalm wrote:On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage. @PF, harassment defense Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well. Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf. Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so). I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC. Regarding that. My concern with OC is that it has very little utility late game. You need them for scans but having 2 is kinda enough. So I feel like I will always choose planetaries as my 3rd+. I wouldn't mind a bit more competition (upgraded OC late game utility). A 4th OC ability would be awesome (cus I kinda like all of the 3 options which currently are avaiable). Anyway here is another idea; Planetary mode is now avaiable at every CC and OC, however to activate it once you have to pay 100/100. Duration and CD is the same as before. I am not a huge fan of having these abilities that require payment for each unlock, and i could also see bugs if you would choose to upgrade a CC that had made this upgrade to an OC. What i would suggest for a start is that planetary becomes an ability on the default CC, through it does require a one-time upgrade from the engineering bay to use(because Planetary rushes are lame). Then add something to the OC so that not upgrading a CC is sufficiant cost. Overall through i do feel it is the wrong approach with timed attacks, because regardless it will almost always be avaliable when you need it, thus removing the point. You can't drop if a good chunk of the units are already in position, and they will always make their way in the time the planetary is up. I can't see a good solution with this approuch.
Whats the point here? It obvious won't be avaiable when you need it always if the opponent takes advantage of the fact that there is a cooldown.
|
On May 08 2013 07:39 Hider wrote:
Patch isn't updated?
?
|
On May 08 2013 08:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 07:52 Sumadin wrote:On May 08 2013 07:03 Hider wrote:On May 08 2013 06:14 decemberscalm wrote:On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage. @PF, harassment defense Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well. Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf. Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so). I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC. Regarding that. My concern with OC is that it has very little utility late game. You need them for scans but having 2 is kinda enough. So I feel like I will always choose planetaries as my 3rd+. I wouldn't mind a bit more competition (upgraded OC late game utility). A 4th OC ability would be awesome (cus I kinda like all of the 3 options which currently are avaiable). Anyway here is another idea; Planetary mode is now avaiable at every CC and OC, however to activate it once you have to pay 100/100. Duration and CD is the same as before. I am not a huge fan of having these abilities that require payment for each unlock, and i could also see bugs if you would choose to upgrade a CC that had made this upgrade to an OC. What i would suggest for a start is that planetary becomes an ability on the default CC, through it does require a one-time upgrade from the engineering bay to use(because Planetary rushes are lame). Then add something to the OC so that not upgrading a CC is sufficiant cost. Overall through i do feel it is the wrong approach with timed attacks, because regardless it will almost always be avaliable when you need it, thus removing the point. You can't drop if a good chunk of the units are already in position, and they will always make their way in the time the planetary is up. I can't see a good solution with this approuch. Whats the point here? It obvious won't be avaiable when you need it always if the opponent takes advantage of the fact that there is a cooldown.
Alright allow me to explain then. Whenever you do a drop initially the fortress will be avaliable to hold the drop off, until the units comes in to drive away whatever dropped the units. My theory goes that the cooldown won't matter much in this regard because it is mostly spent on the time you would spend on preparing a new drop for the exact same location, assuming you would also having time to drive away the units that was sent there to drive away the drop.
Basicly my theory is that you very rarely will have the oppotunity to exploit the CD with drops at the same location because it would be pointless if the location was already guarded after the first drop.
|
On May 08 2013 08:41 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 08:11 Hider wrote:On May 08 2013 07:52 Sumadin wrote:On May 08 2013 07:03 Hider wrote:On May 08 2013 06:14 decemberscalm wrote:On May 08 2013 06:02 Hider wrote:
Awesome patch. Though obviously we have to see whether 75 minerals vultuures breakes tvz in some way. Also it doesn't help with tvt bio viability, but on the other hand that will kinda benefit from more durable dropships.
Anyway, I think maybe planetaries could use a cooldown increase from 90 to 120 seconds. The original intention was too not use the planetary mode on small harass and while it works better than the old planetary, I feel like I am still too incentivized too just press "C" rather than send over marines or vultuures to kill the zealots/lings.
Obviously pressing too much "C" can be abused, as a good player will send in a slightly larger attack force 30 seconds later, but I feel like the 90 second cooldown makes the "harass window" slightly too small. I would therefore like to see it a bit higher.
That was my concern as well. Vultures in combat should benefit more from being hit and run, and less adapt at straight up fights. This should make stalker and hydralisk counters to them more effective because vultures will need more baby sitting to be effective. My concern is if 75 minerals translates to there simply being too many vultures to handle. As long as hydralisks and stalkers can handle them I think it'll be okay. Don't be surprised if we see an hp nerf or something of that nature, but I do like the idea that you can slip in a few expendable vultures and deal some damage. @PF, harassment defense Very good point. That is one of my biggest worries right now as well. Protoss is losing their easy mode harassment defense with the rift nerf. Queens can simply be killed, but they are pretty amazing vs air harassment (probably too much so). I'd always rather see mines, bunkers, supply depot walls, and tanks get set up for defense. PF is such a zero thought and effort unit. The only redeeming quality is that it competes for OC. Regarding that. My concern with OC is that it has very little utility late game. You need them for scans but having 2 is kinda enough. So I feel like I will always choose planetaries as my 3rd+. I wouldn't mind a bit more competition (upgraded OC late game utility). A 4th OC ability would be awesome (cus I kinda like all of the 3 options which currently are avaiable). Anyway here is another idea; Planetary mode is now avaiable at every CC and OC, however to activate it once you have to pay 100/100. Duration and CD is the same as before. I am not a huge fan of having these abilities that require payment for each unlock, and i could also see bugs if you would choose to upgrade a CC that had made this upgrade to an OC. What i would suggest for a start is that planetary becomes an ability on the default CC, through it does require a one-time upgrade from the engineering bay to use(because Planetary rushes are lame). Then add something to the OC so that not upgrading a CC is sufficiant cost. Overall through i do feel it is the wrong approach with timed attacks, because regardless it will almost always be avaliable when you need it, thus removing the point. You can't drop if a good chunk of the units are already in position, and they will always make their way in the time the planetary is up. I can't see a good solution with this approuch. Whats the point here? It obvious won't be avaiable when you need it always if the opponent takes advantage of the fact that there is a cooldown. Alright allow me to explain then. Whenever you do a drop initially the fortress will be avaliable to hold the drop off, until the units comes in to drive away whatever dropped the units. My theory goes that the cooldown won't matter much in this regard because it is mostly spent on the time you would spend on preparing a new drop for the exact same location, assuming you would also having time to drive away the units that was sent there to drive away the drop. Basicly my theory is that you very rarely will have the oppotunity to exploit the CD with drops at the same location because it would be pointless if the location was already guarded after the first drop.
But I actually don't think thats such a huge concern after all. Remember if the terran is forced to react with units after your drop, then he is playing the way the game is "supposed" to be played: By splitting up his army. This means that he know needs to have units defending planetaries rather than just a naked planetary with 0 defense.
From my experience your still quite vulnerable against a lot of stuff. Say a protoss reaver drops your planetary. THen you need a couple of siege tanks to defend vs that and maybe you use planetary activation to hold it off. The protoss sees what your doing and flies away with the warp prism. But then 30 seconds later he warps in 8-10 zealots and kills your 4 siege tanks very efficiently. Thus even when you have units to defend the planetary, the opponent can still harass it by building "counter-units".
|
On May 08 2013 08:11 decemberscalm wrote:?
Sorry just needed to relog.
Played some tvp's with vultures. Felt pretty awesome tbh as I now feel incentivized to harass in the earlier stages of the game.
If Queens are too effective AA, reduce their AA range to 4 (same as vs ground). The range was necessary in WoL/HotS because Hydras were a T2 unit - with our basic ranged unit back in their correct place in the tech tree we don't have that issue .
I think this is a good poitn. If we want to make banshee for instance an interesting harass-micro unit in Starbow then it would help with a lower queen range. Because "banshee/wraith" kiting isn't goanna do a lot vs range 7 AA queens.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
