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On May 11 2013 16:22 Xiphias wrote:
Small patch btw:
- Neural bug fixed. (We might change neural later, but this si just a small fix so there is no IMBA stuff in the tournamnet)
+ Show Spoiler +
- Corsair friendly splash dmg fixed.
+ Show Spoiler +This was a bad change,why you wanted to remove splash damage friendly? It was nice to see mutalisks approach corsairs in order to maximize damage, and (corsairs) move away and attack at the same time, to minimize the damage.
- Interceptors are no longer free.
+ Show Spoiler +
- Xiphias Pass removed from the map pool for now
+ Show Spoiler +I not know because you have removed.
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Anything that is not intended will be fixed to the way it was intended. Now, some bugs may give us ides, and we will ponder these ideas, but for now, we fix things to the point that is indented.
Xiphias Pass was removed for various reasons. It was too small in the middle, and it was very easy for Terran mech to turtle and take 5 bases. We might rework it and add it again.
In the mean time, I am trying to get the new HoTS version of Match Point for Starbow. Sounds good? We might make a few changes to it.
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Unit test map "Starbow Tester" Updated!
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Final game is on now tied 2 to 2.
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Sweet, got home just in time for the last game!
Oh, haha, TvT. Interesting.
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Hots bugs.
Supply calldown should cost 75 energy not 50.
Also vikings killed my dropships suprisingly fast as they deal Sc2 damage. I am pretty sure they are not supposed to deal 10+4 vs armored. Kinda takes the purpose out of goliaths. I think its damage is supposed to be 10+4 vs light.
Anyway looking forward to next patch, it definitely has the potential to be awesome.
Below is my dream patch, which is based on the way I think creates the most awesome games.
General changes
- Matchpoint replaces Starbow ridge (I feel like this has too few attack pathces and middle is too dominant).
- Gas income decreased from 8 to 7 per patch.
- Unit movement changed back to Sc2 unit movement (still believe this is unnecesary, even though it's playable now. Probably not a popular suggestion in this forum though. But I think all it does is to make your own units easier get stuck. Hardly what was intended. In this patch I will suggest changes which I believe have a much stronger effect on incentivzing "small army play" and early game micro than what any type of unit movement change can accomplish).
Terran changes:
. Nerve Jammer damage reduction recuded from 100% to 80% (it feels too much of a hard counter to meele units at the moment.)
- Matrix now costs roughly 25 energy, however there is no cooldown.
- Medis no longer need to research Matrix (this is debateable and may lead to slightly OP situations in the early game. But I want to see whether this can work. I feel like bio should be really strong in the early game, but as there are so many upgrades requirements for bio to work, it doesn't feel as strong as I would like it to be.)
- Dropship cost reduced from 100/50 to 50/50.
Planetary cooldown increased from 90 seconds to 120 seconds (maybe even more is needed or a maybe an activaiton "cost" is also needed).
- Orbital command receives a 4th ability with late game utility primarily (I am thinking about this one atm.).
- Bug fixes.
- My ghost suggestion.
- Removal of viking.
- Banshee redesign with weak AA.
- Command center cost reduced from 400 to 350 (I kinda feel like I need to cut scv production so often, that scv "macro" is no longer a mechanical skill. By reducing the cost of the bases of all three races I think we will see less "worker-cutting", and at the same time we will see players taking bases quicker which will lead to more actionpacked games.
- Turret cost increased from 75 to 100 (I want players to rely less on static defenses. With the 12% mineral increase in Starbow HOTS + lower vulture cost I feel like terrans can afford too many turrets).
- Reapers no longer require a tech lab. (I guess the main reason they needed one in Starbow and not in HOTS was due to zerg having fewer drones in Starbow. In "this" patch zerg will receive a larva boost, and thus they can afford to sack more drones than "pre-patch". Also, "pre-patch" reapers are simply countered too easily in tvt and tvz (queens + marines). In TvP they work okay'ish on some maps, but even then I think a protoss player who just chrono's out stalkers can deal with it quite easily. As gas income decreases it will also be a slight nerf to reaper-openings and therefore I feel like the tech-lab removal is needed. A +5 second BT increase might be needed though.
- Goliath range (when upgraded) decreased from 9 to 8.5 (to make guardians slightly outrange them).
- Yamato Cannon redesign as I suggested here
(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955¤tpage=231)
Kabel thought it would just be a mass spam ability, but in that regard it's not really different from matrix, so I don't think thats really a relevant concern.
He also feared that it would incentivize deathball play, which I think is true, however, I don't mind seing big tier 3 deathballs battle it out once in a while.
The reason I feel this change to the BC is needed, is that BC's are just boring atm. I wanna see awesome action with BC's late game.
Protoss:
- Nullifier implemented as Chrono suggested.
- Nexus cost reduced from 400 to 350.
- Reaver projectile reduced by 25% (or so), and you can see which unit is being targetted by the scarabs. Range 11 is maintained.
- My old Stasis redesign suggestion.
- Stasis energy cost reduced from 125 to 100 energy (it's important to note that Arbiters aren't OP if terran just get enough Science vessels, however lower gas income will actually hurt terrans SV production more than protoss will be hurt, and thus we may get into a new metagame where terrans can only afford 2-4 SV's which typically isn't enough to cover all the areas which the protoss can attack. Since Stasis can be extremely unforgiven if used correctly, I want to maintain the "siege-breaking ability", but the terran should be able to survive with a decent amount of his forces if he reacts quickly. When that is said, Stasis has received an indirect nerf through the planetary redesign and cheaper vultures.
- Scout movement speed increased from 2.81 to 3.25.
-Attack animation changed
- Scout cost reduced from 175/125 to 150/100.
- Phase Missile no longer deals damage (only energy).
- Phase Missile energy cost reduced from 75 to 50. (hopefully these changes will make the Scout more of a cheap investment and more efficient as a scout (it needs to be relatively fast).
Zerg
- Ultralisk splash damage buff (to make zerg stronger vs bio late game).
- Hatchery cost reduced from 300 to 250.
- Queen spawn larva increases larva production by 60% from 50%.
- Zergling DPS slightly reduced (zerg gets compensated by more larva and thus zerglings needs a small nerf. I feel like these changes are for the better, as I believe Zerg currently has too few drones which make them vulernable to harass. When they are vulnerable to harass they need to make a spine crawler defensive early game which kinda takes potential action out of the game. I wanna see more ling/hydra vs gateway units and blings vs vultures/bio rather than units starring at a spine crawler wall).
- Spine crawler cost increased from 100 to 125.
- Overlord drop tech cost reduced from 150/150 to 100/100 (debateable - as hydra drop timings may be too strong. However, as I really wanna see more drop play I want to see this change tested. If it turns out to be OP we can always reverse it).
- My nydus suggestion.
- Viper's frenzy energy cost from 100 to 25.
- Frenzy doesn't increase attack speed, but only movement speed.
- Movement speed buff of Frenzy increased from 20% to 30% (the reason these changes are needed is that frenzy as a "cast before battle"-ability is very boring and at the same time probably overpriced at energy cost relative to Dark swarm. I want the ability to be more of a tactical ability which is better at harassing the opponent/attacking where the opponent isn't.
- Frenzie'd units receies a new visual effect (so it is easier to see which units are frenzied).
- Viper HP reduced from 150 to 90 (same HP as Defilers had in BW).
- Viper cost from 100/175 to 75/150.
- Darm swarm duration decreased from 20 to 15 seconds (20 seconds is IMO too big of a hard counter. With Nerve Jammer receiving a "less-hard counter" nerf, it seems appropriate that Dark Swarm receives one as well. I guess in BW you could kinda counter defilers by tank target firing. Vipers at 150 HP are uncounterable by anything but nerve jammer, but honestly I don't want NJ vs DS to be the "standard-meta late game battle", as battles where neither players can attack each other for a significanty amount of time are kinda stupid to like at IMO). Furthermore as Ultras receive a splash damage buff, zerg are in less neccesity of dark swarm (though its still a really good ability to use).
What I believe these changes will accomplish
It will make zerg early game feel a lot more similar to Sc2 early game as zerg now can afford more units. But on the other hand it is now neccesary for the zerg player to take more hatcheries early on and defending them with units rather than sitting on 2 base hatch tech. As drop ship cost is reduced we will see a lot of 2 rax starport +dropship builds in TvZ which I believe will make early game alot more exciting.
If anyone objectively look at tvz early game/early midgame in Starbow (+bw) compared to HOTS, I think they will admit that HOTS is indeed more exciting. This is because the terran is A) Incentivizied to trade armies (since the zerg will gain a strong eco if he doesn't), and B) He gets cheap acces to passing through spine crawlers wall with early medivacs.
On the other hand HOTS lategame is obviously way to turtlish and deathball'ish, but I believe we should take/get inspired by the best parts from BW and HOTS, and trying to create a similar early game incentivize as players have in HOTS is IMO desireable. Secondly it will also create increased familiarity with Starbow, which will make the "trantion-cost" from Sc2 into Starbow less.
In PvZ protoss can how harass/pressure early game cost efficiently since zerglings are worse, and due to to rift they still have an escape-goat. If they don't harass, however, the zerg can outdrone the protoss player (and the terran for that sake). Thus the protoss and terran player have a clear incentive to put pressure on the zerg player and I believe they have the tools to do it as well.
In TvP opening bio is now significantly stronger, and great players will be able to deal with reavers in small/medium sized numbers through ghost + splitting micro. As the game progresses, however, the protoss will be more and more cost effective, thus the terran player will be incentivized to transition into mech. The same concept applies in TvZ as ultras will be more cost effective vs bio. But if you as a terran player feel you can outmultitask your opponent, you can continue producing bio units and relying on abusing your stronger economy to beat your opponent rather than cost efficiency.
What this will mean for balance
Though many of these changes are mostly redesigns rather than balance changes, I think we can say that some playstyles will be slightly better/worse.
Bio: Overall stronger, though less cost efficient late game ZvT.
Mech: Overall slightly weaker as the cheaper bases will benefit the mobile races more than the mech player. Also Nerve Jammer nerf will probably hurt mech more than bio.
Zerg: Probably slightly stronger, however it will be in a different way and the race will require more multitasking to use optimally than previously.
Protoss: I guess the old units will be slightly weaker (nothing significantly though), however Nullifier will give Protoss a new element which will mean that Protoss overall is somewhat unchanged balancewise.
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Well we have talked alot about Goliath vs Vikings. Right now the estimated level of redundancy is right about Extreme.
The problem at hand is that there is kinda 2 roles to cover in terms of AA, Anti-light and Anti-Armored. Problem is we can't decide which unit should cover what. Anti-armor tends to be the most mandatory role, where as anti-light is more niché and typhically more a case of hardcountering, since light air unit tends to be sufficiantly vulnerble to everything that shoots up.
It is another case of Bio vs Mech infact.
If Goliath was the only Anti-armor Anti-Air (AAAA) then it would be close to mandatory even for bio to get it. On the other hand if Viking was the AAAA then mech would be much more vulnerble to say Skytoss. A matter of taste.
Personally i do feel Terran Air is the least adjusted of all races and could do with some decree of makeover. I also took the freedom of digging up some Terran Air models from the HOTS Campaign.
+ Show Spoiler +
The pirate Capital ships it says in the description. To me it looks more like a high-class transporter with heavy engines and advanced droppods. Maybe a Bio-only heavy dropship if we wanted that.
+ Show Spoiler +
Tac fighters and Griffons respectively on the right. They were only meant to be intercepter-sized fighters and hence very simple models. Infact intercepters are more detailed than those which saddened me a little as they looked like potential in the campaign.
As for the Mag-Mine, if we ever get to work on that Anti-air mine for the Ghost or whatever, then there is the perfect model for that. Don't ask me how it flies, if Brood Lords can fly so can it.
Some insight and food for thought i hope.
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On May 12 2013 08:22 Sumadin wrote:Well we have talked alot about Goliath vs Vikings. Right now the estimated level of redundancy is right about Extreme. The problem at hand is that there is kinda 2 roles to cover in terms of AA, Anti-light and Anti-Armored. Problem is we can't decide which unit should cover what. Anti-armor tends to be the most mandatory role, where as anti-light is more niché and typhically more a case of hardcountering, since light air unit tends to be sufficiantly vulnerble to everything that shoots up. It is another case of Bio vs Mech infact. If Goliath was the only Anti-armor Anti-Air (AAAA) then it would be close to mandatory even for bio to get it. On the other hand if Viking was the AAAA then mech would be much more vulnerble to say Skytoss. A matter of taste. Personally i do feel Terran Air is the least adjusted of all races and could do with some decree of makeover. I also took the freedom of digging up some Terran Air models from the HOTS Campaign. + Show Spoiler +The pirate Capital ships it says in the description. To me it looks more like a high-class transporter with heavy engines and advanced droppods. Maybe a Bio-only heavy dropship if we wanted that. + Show Spoiler +Tac fighters and Griffons respectively on the right. They were only meant to be intercepter-sized fighters and hence very simple models. Infact intercepters are more detailed than those which saddened me a little as they looked like potential in the campaign. As for the Mag-Mine, if we ever get to work on that Anti-air mine for the Ghost or whatever, then there is the perfect model for that. Don't ask me how it flies, if Brood Lords can fly so can it. Some insight and food for thought i hope.
The problem is that its simply a bug. Prior to the HOTS edition vikings didn't do + damage vs armored (but vs light instead). It was never intended to be good vs armored units in Starbow. Its just a change that has been forgotton.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
OK well, thanks for tournament, here's da replays of quarters, where i was lucky with 2 terran and 1 zerg ^^
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19647338/Starcraft/sbq.zip
and i beg you to fix hotkeys for grid-users (when i say hotkeys i mean position of icons):
1) make all unloads to V (terran have it at C and zerg have it at B, while toss have it at V as i remember)
2) make stalker at E. (because its a badic unit, so when i think "OMG I NEED STALKERS" i press E, and then realize that they're at W)
this goes into interesting choice - make holes in production layouts or ignore grid hotkeyers.
3) Zerg advanced building layout:
please make it:
Q - empty
W - infestation pit
A - spire
Z - ultralisks
S (or Q) - viper nest
4) Zerg Units:
Make them back - Infestor to F, Viper to Z, ultralisk to X
all these changes to make starbow grid-hotkeys not conflict vanilla hotkeys, since.. well its just hard to get used to both sc2 and starbow
about balace)
1) Vikings feels pretty ok with drops, no need to nerf, even if i feel like vanilla sc2 vikings much, much more stronger vs drops
2) ultras burrow change seems pretty useless now and buggy
3) ultras have not splash (as i noticed from 4th game) O_o
4) not enough units as protoss :< i would trace scout for any gate/robo unit, since i dont get idea of it (toss have antiair corsair and caster arbiter, and 2 heavy tempests+carriers, so scout as another antiair/caster seems useless, give his abilities to arbiter and remove scout)
and ofc as always my proposition: make less gas income / make 2 workers for 1 mineral path, currently there's a way too much gas and not enough minerals
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On May 12 2013 09:41 Fen1kz wrote:OK well, thanks for tournament, here's da replays of quarters, where i was lucky with 2 terran and 1 zerg ^^ https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19647338/Starcraft/sbq.zipand i beg you to fix hotkeys for grid-users (when i say hotkeys i mean position of icons): 1) make all unloads to V (terran have it at C and zerg have it at B, while toss have it at V as i remember) 2) make stalker at E. (because its a badic unit, so when i think "OMG I NEED STALKERS" i press E, and then realize that they're at W) this goes into interesting choice - make holes in production layouts or ignore grid hotkeyers. 3) Zerg advanced building layout: please make it: Q - empty W - infestation pit A - spire Z - ultralisks S (or Q) - viper nest 4) Zerg Units: Make them back - Infestor to F, Viper to Z, ultralisk to X all these changes to make starbow grid-hotkeys not conflict vanilla hotkeys, since.. well its just hard to get used to both sc2 and starbow about balace) 1) Vikings feels pretty ok with drops, no need to nerf, even if i feel like vanilla sc2 vikings much, much more stronger vs drops 2) ultras burrow change seems pretty useless now and buggy 3) ultras have not splash (as i noticed from 4th game) O_o 4) not enough units as protoss :< i would trace scout for any gate/robo unit, since i dont get idea of it (toss have antiair corsair and caster arbiter, and 2 heavy tempests+carriers, so scout as another antiair/caster seems useless, give his abilities to arbiter and remove scout) and ofc as always my proposition: make less gas income / make 2 workers for 1 mineral path, currently there's a way too much gas and not enough minerals
Regarding vikings. Its not a nerf its more of a rebalance/redesign. Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. Also I think it just kinda "kills" dropship play in tvt, which IMO is more exciting. Vikings with 10 damage vs armored created a much more interesting "metagame" where the viking+banshee + mech style was of comparable strenght to the "ground-based mech style".
Besides that, I think your other points will be adressed. Ultras with splash damage as a compensation for removal of burrow charge seems pretty fair.
make 2 workers for 1 mineral path
I think the "1½" worker style is pretty cool, however expansion cost just need to come down as well. 400 is just a bit too much.
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On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings. Its not a nerf its more of a rebalance/redesign. Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. Also I think it just kinda "kills" dropship play in tvt, which IMO is more exciting. Vikings with 10 damage vs armored created a much more interesting "metagame" where the viking+banshee + mech style was of comparable strenght to the "ground-based mech style".
Besides that, I think your other points will be adressed. Ultras with splash damage as a compensation for removal of burrow charge seems pretty fair.
I was thinking about it and to some extent you are right. In SC2 there wouldn't be much doupt that the viking would be needed as it is with Colossus and Brood Lords. But neither of those are present in Starbow. Armored Air units are less of a treat overall.
I do think through that we could do better than just giving it +Light and be done with that. If the Viking for example had your suggested Air mines, or the Mag-mine then it would be rather risky to get too close to them allowing them full advantage of their impressive range and semi-decent mobility. It could be something else that would force or suggest enemy Air to keep the distance and maybe split up all while getting torn apart by the vikings from range. There is potential i think.
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On May 12 2013 17:04 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings. Its not a nerf its more of a rebalance/redesign. Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. Also I think it just kinda "kills" dropship play in tvt, which IMO is more exciting. Vikings with 10 damage vs armored created a much more interesting "metagame" where the viking+banshee + mech style was of comparable strenght to the "ground-based mech style".
Besides that, I think your other points will be adressed. Ultras with splash damage as a compensation for removal of burrow charge seems pretty fair. I was thinking about it and to some extent you are right. In SC2 there wouldn't be much doupt that the viking would be needed as it is with Colossus and Brood Lords. But neither of those are present in Starbow. Armored Air units are less of a treat overall. I do think through that we could do better than just giving it +Light and be done with that. If the Viking for example had your suggested Air mines, or the Mag-mine then it would be rather risky to get too close to them allowing them full advantage of their impressive range and semi-decent mobility. It could be something else that would force or suggest enemy Air to keep the distance and maybe split up all while getting torn apart by the vikings from range. There is potential i think.
We could definitely do better than the current version of vikings. However, with my suggested balance patch vikings will actually be removed from the game. I feel like everytime they are on the field they make the game slightly less interesting. Like lets look at their functions;
1) Make muta harass play inefifcient as a-move vikings (with a bit of support ) beats them.
2) Makes drops less efficient
Thats primiarly that. Is that really an interesting role for a niche unit. At least if it had interestiog niche functions we could keep it in the game, but at this point I just rather remove it and find a more interesting ability/unit to replace the functions of the viking.
You say tha that the vikings can use it's range to avoid going into my suggested AA-mines. However, that isn't really a problem today either. Vikings just can't go into the opponent's army as he tyically will have AA units (turrets, goliaths, marines). So I don't think my suggested AA-mine will create any kind of interesting dynamic with the viking. Rather I see the AA-mines as a more interesting + strategically rewarding way of replacing the viking.
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On May 12 2013 17:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:04 Sumadin wrote:On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings. Its not a nerf its more of a rebalance/redesign. Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. Also I think it just kinda "kills" dropship play in tvt, which IMO is more exciting. Vikings with 10 damage vs armored created a much more interesting "metagame" where the viking+banshee + mech style was of comparable strenght to the "ground-based mech style".
Besides that, I think your other points will be adressed. Ultras with splash damage as a compensation for removal of burrow charge seems pretty fair. I was thinking about it and to some extent you are right. In SC2 there wouldn't be much doupt that the viking would be needed as it is with Colossus and Brood Lords. But neither of those are present in Starbow. Armored Air units are less of a treat overall. I do think through that we could do better than just giving it +Light and be done with that. If the Viking for example had your suggested Air mines, or the Mag-mine then it would be rather risky to get too close to them allowing them full advantage of their impressive range and semi-decent mobility. It could be something else that would force or suggest enemy Air to keep the distance and maybe split up all while getting torn apart by the vikings from range. There is potential i think. We could definitely do better than the current version of vikings. However, with my suggested balance patch vikings will actually be removed from the game. I feel like everytime they are on the field they make the game slightly less interesting. Like lets look at their functions; 1) Make muta harass play inefifcient as a-move vikings (with a bit of support ) beats them. 2) Makes drops less efficient Thats primiarly that. Is that really an interesting role for a niche unit. At least if it had interestiog niche functions we could keep it in the game, but at this point I just rather remove it and find a more interesting ability/unit to replace the functions of the viking. You say tha that the vikings can use it's range to avoid going into my suggested AA-mines. However, that isn't really a problem today either. Vikings just can't go into the opponent's army as he tyically will have AA units (turrets, goliaths, marines). So I don't think my suggested AA-mine will create any kind of interesting dynamic with the viking. Rather I see the AA-mines as a more interesting + strategically rewarding way of replacing the viking.
Well it still serves the role to allow Bio to bypass Mech and go into Starport tech for the sake of dealing with Air units, which i do think is fine since it still is a different tech path, and something worth expanding on. I don't think we can ever hope to make Bio even slightly viable in TvT/P if we stick to the idea that they must get 3 factories with Techlab to be ready for any sort of Air transition. The current SC2 model with an expected reactored Starport and another one followed if the air gets too high in numbers is more forgiving in that regard and a model i do like.
So my primary idea for the viking would be to cover the Airial demands of Bio since mech is doing fine in this regard. Overall in straight combat it should lose to both Mutas and Scouts and have no damage advantage at all but with Proper micro and by using the mines or any other ability to keep distance it will gain the advantage if those units can't get close. And of course should one or two of the mines hit then it is a win for the vikings aswell. It doesn't avoid the mines it takes advantage of them. A sort of airial forcefield.
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On May 12 2013 17:58 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 17:25 Hider wrote:On May 12 2013 17:04 Sumadin wrote:On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:
Regarding vikings. Its not a nerf its more of a rebalance/redesign. Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. Also I think it just kinda "kills" dropship play in tvt, which IMO is more exciting. Vikings with 10 damage vs armored created a much more interesting "metagame" where the viking+banshee + mech style was of comparable strenght to the "ground-based mech style".
Besides that, I think your other points will be adressed. Ultras with splash damage as a compensation for removal of burrow charge seems pretty fair. I was thinking about it and to some extent you are right. In SC2 there wouldn't be much doupt that the viking would be needed as it is with Colossus and Brood Lords. But neither of those are present in Starbow. Armored Air units are less of a treat overall. I do think through that we could do better than just giving it +Light and be done with that. If the Viking for example had your suggested Air mines, or the Mag-mine then it would be rather risky to get too close to them allowing them full advantage of their impressive range and semi-decent mobility. It could be something else that would force or suggest enemy Air to keep the distance and maybe split up all while getting torn apart by the vikings from range. There is potential i think. We could definitely do better than the current version of vikings. However, with my suggested balance patch vikings will actually be removed from the game. I feel like everytime they are on the field they make the game slightly less interesting. Like lets look at their functions; 1) Make muta harass play inefifcient as a-move vikings (with a bit of support ) beats them. 2) Makes drops less efficient Thats primiarly that. Is that really an interesting role for a niche unit. At least if it had interestiog niche functions we could keep it in the game, but at this point I just rather remove it and find a more interesting ability/unit to replace the functions of the viking. You say tha that the vikings can use it's range to avoid going into my suggested AA-mines. However, that isn't really a problem today either. Vikings just can't go into the opponent's army as he tyically will have AA units (turrets, goliaths, marines). So I don't think my suggested AA-mine will create any kind of interesting dynamic with the viking. Rather I see the AA-mines as a more interesting + strategically rewarding way of replacing the viking. Well it still serves the role to allow Bio to bypass Mech and go into Starport tech for the sake of dealing with Air units, which i do think is fine since it still is a different tech path, and something worth expanding on. I don't think we can ever hope to make Bio even slightly viable in TvT/P if we stick to the idea that they must get 3 factories with Techlab to be ready for any sort of Air transition. The current SC2 model with an expected reactored Starport and another one followed if the air gets too high in numbers is more forgiving in that regard and a model i do like. So my primary idea for the viking would be to cover the Airial demands of Bio since mech is doing fine in this regard. Overall in straight combat it should lose to both Mutas and Scouts and have no damage advantage at all but with Proper micro and by using the mines or any other ability to keep distance it will gain the advantage if those units can't get close. And of course should one or two of the mines hit then it is a win for the vikings aswell. It doesn't avoid the mines it takes advantage of them. A sort of airial forcefield.
I don't understand? Bio doesn't need vikings at all in TvT/TvP.. Marines can kinda easily deal with most stuff. My suggested redesign of "snipe" will also make it pretty decent against carriers/tempests (which I have no idea what they are doing in this game?).
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Russian Federation216 Posts
On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring.
cmon, they're awesome since they can transform and ~comparable with goliaths. and they have splash as i remember, so its pretty awesome and flexible unit, so i suppose you can easily make vikings vs carriers and they're pure counter to them, not goliaths
also more about hotkeys: please change terran barracks:
q - marine, w - reaper, e - firebat (maradeur was on this place), and a - medic
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On May 12 2013 18:23 Fen1kz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2013 15:45 Hider wrote:Why not just make vikings vs carriers rather than goliaths? Problem with viking is that they are boring. cmon, they're awesome since they can transform and ~comparable with goliaths. and they have splash as i remember, so its pretty awesome and flexible unit, so i suppose you can easily make vikings vs carriers and they're pure counter to them, not goliaths also more about hotkeys: please change terran barracks: q - marine, w - reaper, e - firebat (maradeur was on this place), and a - medic
This is my opinion.
Ground vs air = Can be interesting. Unit have different advantages and disadvantages.
Air vs air = boring. As units have the same advantage (mobility).
Transformer ability = Meh....
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Air vs air is boring if all the factors that determines an air combat are constant and can barely be manipulated via player control. An example that comes to mind is Viking vs Viking wars in WoL.
Stuff that I think makes air vs air combat interesting:
- Temporarily effects, for example Dropship speed boost. (Makes it hard to predict who will win)
- Splash effects, for example Corsair splash or Scourge splash, since that rewards aerial positioning, flanking and splitting
- High speed/mobility, so it allows hit-and-run attacks, (corsair vs mutas) , rotate damaged units out of combat etc
Interesting and exciting air combats in BW:
Scourge - Shuttle/Dropship
Corsairs - Mutalisks, Scourge
Wraiths - Mutalisks, Scourge
Terran air can surely become more interesting than it currently is in Starbow. How can we do that?
(I know that Xiphias and Dec have something in mind already  )
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On May 12 2013 18:54 Kabel wrote:Air vs air is boring if all the factors that determines an air combat are constant and can barely be manipulated via player control. An example that comes to mind is Viking vs Viking wars in WoL. Stuff that I think makes air vs air combat interesting: - Temporarily effects, for example Dropship speed boost. (Makes it hard to predict who will win) - Splash effects, for example Corsair splash or Scourge splash, since that rewards aerial positioning, flanking and splitting - High speed/mobility, so it allows hit-and-run attacks, (corsair vs mutas) , rotate damaged units out of combat etc Interesting and exciting air combats in BW: Scourge - Shuttle/Dropship Corsairs - Mutalisks, Scourge Wraiths - Mutalisks, Scourge Terran air can surely become more interesting than it currently is in Starbow. How can we do that? (I know that Xiphias and Dec have something in mind already )
I agree. I just haven't seen any suggestion on how to make vikings interesting. Valkyrie doesn't seem to do it for me.
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EPT
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